Dick Allen

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:44 PM) Ha, big bad KW, bullying these poor players. Now that's funny. Yes I keep bringing up cost certainty because I am thinking along with the GM and front office, seeing how they do business, and then trying to predict what they do based on they way they do things. Konerko's situation was different. They don't win, they wouldn't have re-signed him. Simple. They didn't sign him long term because they were not a good team in 2004 and they knew they wanted more pitching, which signing Konerko may have precluded them from getting. They won, they have more money now, it's a new scenario. Well he is trying to bully Garland and Contreras into signing extensions, and Garland's supposed offer is well below what he would get if he became a free agent and pitched anywhere near like he did in 2005. If Contreras turns down the offer is he going to be moved as well? Personally, I really don't think KW or JR want too much guaranteed 3 or 4 years down the line. I think they would like some flexibility.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:35 PM) Well considering Kenny believes that he needs to move on from Jon I think I'll go along with him, considering he's a little closer to the situation then we are. KW makes mistakes once in a while. Last year everything worked out perfectly, even the greatest GMs don't have that happen too often. I do think if he trades him it will be to the NL or to a second or third tier team in the AL. He wouldn't want Garland to bite him in the ass next season.

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:34 PM) Well VAFan, just like all those Giles threads, you have wasted your time. It doesn't matter what everyone assumes, it matters what Ken Williams and the White Sox front office think. They think he wants to test free agency. The White Sox don't want to let him walk for nothing. It is that simple, please stop trying to complicate things. Read what Williams says, then watch his actions. There is a definite pattern. They want cost certainty while fielding the most competitive team possible. You keep bringing up cost certainty. If that is the White Sox end all, why did KW refuse to negotiate with Konerko last offseason? The problem with not doing that is everyone, players and agents included, see how much more Konerko is going to have to play with, and no one is going to sign a contract well below market value. If Esteban Loiasa gets $21 million over 3 years, there is no telling what these White Sox pitchers next contracts are going to look like if they play their cards right and don't let KW bully them.

Evidently not accepting the team's first proposal for a contract extension, believed to be 3 years/24 million means you don't want to play for the White Sox according to Soxtalk. A lot of people are speculating on what Garland would command in the open market, and the figures on this board are so much higher than the White Sox reported offer, he would be a fool to accept said offer. KW might have gotten burned by not negotiating with Konerko last off season, but that was his fault. Konerko wanted to negotiate, KW did not. To now take a stance that says you sign here well below market value, or you get traded is puzzling. If you are truly going for another championship and Garland is one of your top 5 pitchers, you keep him. As a matter of fact, looking at Vasquez's performance his last 50 starts or so, he should be the sixth starter. His second half ERA in 2004 with the Yankees in a good park to pitch in was 6.92. Last year in the NL it was 4.42, granted he pitched in a good park to hit in, but he will be doing that now as well. The one problem with having a guy signed or under control for a few years is you may not want him those couple years. Hopefully, that's not the case with Vazquez, but I think if they had the bet in Vegas, Garland would be the odds on favorite to have the better season in 2006, and I'm a guy who wanted him gone last offseason. Keep him around, he's pitching for a contract. Worst case scenerio, you get the draft picks.

I like Griffey, but with Thome in the picture, I think playing CF for a full season isn't going to happen. I do like the Ichiro idea, although it would really be something if Seattle traded him. It is going to be interesting to see how the Sox fill up the open spots in their bullpen. Will 2006 be the year of Baj?

QUOTE(WinninUgly @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 12:00 PM) I don't know if this has been posted, but it looks like the D-Backs will pay $8 million: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/20...s-vazquez_x.htm Wow. Considering they initially weren't willing to pay anything in a Vazquez deal, that's shocking. It also goes to show what they think of Chris Young. With Vizcaino arb eligible, the money is close to a wash this season with Duque getting 4.5 Vizcaino around 2.0 and 4.0 from the D-Backs, that's only $1 million the Sox are adding to the payroll.

I'm not a big fan of this trade--yet. It will depend on the follow-up deal or deals which are sure to follow.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 09:43 AM) ok, I'm not going to beat up that point. The whole thing smells, and it's not necessarily your fault. You can't blame him. Its on the other board too. Levine made it sound as if the deal he threw together off the top of his head, was imminent.

QUOTE(travelinman89 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 09:31 AM) I sure hope the Sox don't look at Urbina. Dont forget he was charged with attempted murder. I actually wouldn't be shocked if Ozzie were the guy to give him the chance to get his career back on track, although it remains to be seen whether he will ever step foot in the US again.

I don't have access to espn radio, but am I correct that trading for Tejada is pure speculation at this point. That discussions at least as far as Levine knows, haven't taken place?

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 09:08 AM) Exactly. Let's not get emotionally attached with players. Hell, I see more people attached around here with guys like Baj and McCarthy than I saw them with Frank. Tejada >> McCarthy & Uribe right now. And guess what guys, we're trying to win right now. The White Sox won with Uribe. I think its very unfair for anyone to make a statement that being against trading BMac, Uribe, and prospects for Tejada basically means you know nothing about baseball. Tejada obviously is one of the best players in the game and obviously would be a huge addition to any team that acquired him. However, as the Yankees have proven over the past 5 seasons, a superstar at every position guarantees you nothing. You need pitching. God bless JR if he is opening up the checkbook and is willing to have a payroll over $100 million. The bottom line is even with Tejada, Konerko, Thome, Dye etc. the most important aspect of your team is going to be pitching. Buerhle, Garcia, Garland, Contreras, and Vazquez is a great starting 5, maybe the best 5 in baseball, but you have to now be concerned with the bullpen. Marte, and Vizcaino are gone. Hermanson is a huge question mark. Everyone loves Jenks but he has twice had problems with his elbow and I believe is pitching with a screw in it. Politte hasn't been very consistent his entire career, and then Cotts who looks like he could be a star. I think the White Sox remaining resources should be used shoring up the bullpen. Of course, if money is no object then go ahead and trade for Tejada, and spend some more on the bullpen.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 08:50 AM) Damn right. And Miguel Tejada is at least as good as Uribe on his worst day defensively. I would take Uribe's glove any day of the week over Tejada's, but I do agree Tejada is a superior player, one of the best in baseball. I do love the fact KW is not standing pat with a world championship team. But I think he has to be careful not to thin out the pitching staff acquiring boppers. Uribe was good enough for the Sox to win it all in 2005. I think the Sox need to worry about filling in their depleted bullpen now. Tejada would be nice, I just think there are bigger needs.

One thing the 2005 White Sox had was incredible luck with their starting pitchers health. They only used 6 starters the entire season. Chances are one or more of these guys are going to go down for a while this season, and in future seasons. To trade BMac would be silly. He is cheap and will be for a few years. There isn't much in the minors right now you would want to see on the mound at USCF in 2006 spot starting, or filling in for an injured starter.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 08:35 AM) Levine is full of s***. Pretty simple, no way in hell this happens I think you're right. It would be a pretty interesting team. We probably wouldn't hear the term smallball anymore with a heart of the order you see in All Star games. What would the payroll be?

Well I wanted the White Sox to shake up the bullpen a little bit. I have a deep concern that El Duque's absence may really affect Contreras, and I have no doubt that either Garland or Contreras or Vazquez or Garcia will be dealt before spring training to fill the bullpen void on this team and maybe add a prospect or 2. Losing Chris Young is a killer to me. With Vizcaino and Marte gone, if Timo sticks he's going to have to take on the burden of being Soxtalk's main whipping boy.

There's a way around the system. The Yankees did it with Matsui. If he wasn't signed by a certain date, they would have to waive him. Maybe something like that is going on with Contreras because everything I read says he will be a free agent, but he's certainly short in the service department.

QUOTE(mr_genius @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 04:55 PM) yea, i was thinking the same thing and i'm never wrong. Of course you're never wrong, you're a genius.

I still don't understand why Contreras would be eligible for free agency after next season. He has not had 6 years in the majors.

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 01:07 PM) Nope. You can pick any two players out of a hat and make those kinds of comparisons. The reason I posted this is because if they make the trade, the components will be eerily similar. The Sox will trade a pitcher who won as many or more games the previous year than the one they will receive in return. They will be getting an older, more expensive player, and they will throw in another player who actually may be able to contribute at the major league level.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 01:07 PM) What was the Counts record and ERA before he became game 1 starter of the WS for the White Sox. His ERA was high, but he has a pretty good winning percentage. Vazquez seems to be on a downswing. His second half of 2004 was so awful the Yankees couldn't wait to unload him. 2005 was a little better, but he was pitching in the NL. Vazquez is not .500 for his career. For that you think it is wise to pay him as much as you would be paying Paul Konerko the next 2 seasons while giving up a guy who probably has turned the corner, and a prospect many believe could eventually be the best player on your team? Vazquez is mediocre at best, no matter if he is golfing with Ozzie or not. The $24 million he would have to be paid the next 2 seasons could be spent more wisely IMO.

11-15 4.47 ERA Todd Ritchie 2001 29 years old 11-15 4.42 ERA Javier Vazquez 2005 28 years old Pretty scary huh?

If the Sox have all this money lying around, why not make a run at Johnny Damon? Blow Boras away, show him the cash.

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 12:50 PM) You are right, nothing ensures a repeat. That's why you have to keep a close eye on the "now" and 3 years from now. This is what KW has always tried to do, and he's doing it now as well. But 3 years from now Vazquez if traded for, isn't going to be in a White Sox uniform. Vazquez for Garland nets one extra year, and a ton more money to be paid. I would rather they let Cotts become a starter in 2007 than pay all that money to Vazquez.

QUOTE(SoxFan562004 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 12:31 PM) IMO he also didn't let things rattle him as much as they use to. If something questionable happened behind him defensively he would totally lose it for an inning or two. This year he didn't do that. However, with his and Jose's contract status I could understand why KW would make this deal Is Contreras a free agent or arb. eligible after next season? Don't you have to have 6 years service time? I know Matsui had a clause in his contract where he had to be put on irrevocable waivers at a certain date if he wasn't re-signed by then.

QUOTE(GreatScott82 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 12:18 PM) Anyone have Vazquez stats over the last 2 seasons? I'm afraid he will get bombed at the Cell. He was great the first half of 2004, and then the roof caved in. I'm pretty sure his ERA was well over 6.00 the second half of 2004 with the Yankees.