Dick Allen

My point is if you are going to go for it, go for it. You dive into the pool, don't just stick your toes in. They weren't nearly aggressive enough. It was not impossible to compete. They weren't totally committed. If they were, they would have had actual guys who should play well, not guys you hoped played well. Dioner Navarro, starting catcher?

Less than $7 million is the budget for a starting SS and starting pitcher for a going for it ballclub? You are making my point for me. And just remember, if and when these young guys ever get good , the guys that brought you these clowns to fill in holes will be doing it again.

Is that why they could only come up with James Shields, because they only had Fernando Tatis Jr. to offer? Hahn's best effort included Mat Latos and jimmy Rollins. They weren't properly committed. H r.

He was a DH. The WAR is going to be a bit supressed. They had guys they could trade. Somehow Semien, Bassit, Phegley, Micah Johnson, Trayce Thompson, got guys major league guys who were supposed to be big time players. Didn't quite work out that way.

Wild card run in 2020 if Kopech wasn't hurt? you have been saying 102 wins for months.

Year 2 was pretty good. And I never said you can avoid busts. When you copy and pasted, you happened to leave that part out. Funny how you work.

If your memory is serving you correctly, you will also remember I said never to 4 years. One thing the Sox could have done is paid Mark Buehrle what the Marlins paid him. 2012 could have been different. Maybe then they don't make the Samardizja mistake. They spent money on Adam Dunn. Bad move. Detroit actually wanted him them. They signed Victor instead. Make those switches, and already it's a much brighter outlook. Mistakes, every GM will make. Theo blames the hitting coach, and he's the genius who signed Darvish, Chatwood, and Morrow, and actually had people believing the first two may just be part of the greatest rotation of all time.

The White Sox had Sale, Q, and Eaton signed cheaply. Abreu's contract was pretty fair. They got the money to sign guys because their management made a commitment to really try to win, and their owner was getting up there, had a lot of money he would never spend, so he signed off. I don't know where you come up with Victor Martinez. You seem to use him as a talking point, and you are the only one who has mentioned him.

in 2006 Verlander was 17-9 3.63 ERA 4.35 FIP. The Sox had Chris Sale. And Jose Quintana. In 2006 Curtis Granderson at 25, and the amazing Chris Shelton at 26 were the only 2 Tiger regular position players under 29. It wasn't the tank that got them there.

Look at the 2005 vs 2006 Tigers. You can win. Teams stil increase win totals pretty drastically. The problem is when you pick up guys like Javy Vazquez and Jeff Samardzija, and think, these are 5.0 WAR pitchers, that will be more wins. Then look again and realize they always put up big WAR numbers, but rarely actually have big seasons. Vazquez was great for the Sox when they sucked. When they were good, horrible. Samardzija sucked, yet his WAR was still good. Something about the Sox defense. Looks like everywhere he goes, his team does him in. What no one wanted to mention, was the biggest defensive problem when he was pitching was Jeff S. himself.

The 1976 White Sox lost 97 games. In 1977 they won 90. The 2007 White Sox lost 90 games and it should have been more. They rode Jerry Owens and Josh Fields to many September wins. They won the division in 2008. The 1990 White Sox won 94 games. They added some young talent, but Robin Ventura wasn't the Robin Ventura we all knew in 1990. Frank Thomas didn't come up until August. To say there was no way to win, is crazy. Yes, the farm system sucked. But for the most part, it has sucked for more than a decade. To say there were no players that could have been acquired that could have meant wins, is short sided. The White Sox, since the strike, have been sort of a half in, when going for it, Albert Belle being signed , the exception. The half assed approach which gets guys like wife beater Wil Cordero, and John Kruck and Chris Sabo, and Darrin Erstad, hasn't worked, and doesn't work. You don't have anyone to call up, and you have these gems signed to team friendly contracts, spend your money, and try to win. Not some half assed well if he pitches like he's never had 2 radical surgeries, and this guy can turn the clock back 5 years, and everyone can have their career year, we will be right there approach. If somehow this rebuild is successful in producing young kids who can actually play, they are still going to need to add, and the half assed approach to adding will not work. Especially with the current guys doing the shopping.

As far as his comment about what he heard.

1997 they signed Belle. Pretty much the rebuild portion was just 1999 , except for the white flag trade,and even then they won 75 games. 3 off of Rick Hahns career high as a GM. 1986 they tried to win but it was a disaster. Some on Hawk, some was just fate. Seaver wanting the east coast. Britt Burns traded and never pitching again. Hawk didn't do himself any favors, but the main reason he got the job was because the farm was so awful. When they lost productivity, they had nothing to replace it with. 87-89 Himes rebuilt, although he didn't need top 3 picks every year. The team won 94 games in 1990 with the lowest payroll in baseball, so naturally, the GM was replaced

Besides this thread, is this an issue anywhere else?

They have had several rebuilds over the years that resulted in no titles. I don't think it's fair to say a successful season has to include a championship. If that's the standard, everyone is going to be unhappy most of the time. But there is no guarantee here. Just because it worked for the Cubs and Astros, doesn't mean it will work for the White Sox. Different people making decisions, different players. You can give me and a top chef the same ingredients to make a cake, and I know they won't come out the same. So change everything, and what happens? My question is, using an old JR scenerio....if a guy can't get you from point B to point C, why on earth do you even consider he can get you from point A to point C?

Guys playing for money usually is a good thing. Plus the added benefit of an upgrade next offseason if available. The only issue being he could try to be a stat padder to get paid. But it's not like they are playing for a title.

JR signed Albert Belle. Told Krause to get Dennis RodmanI don't think acting like an ass would make him flinch. What could make him flinch is his comments about hustling. To be honest with you, it would make me wonder exactly how locked in he will be once he gets $300 million guaranteed. But it isn't my money. Sign him.

The one thing you don't want to do is give someone a pass just because you can't expect the team to be good. None of us have day to day access to the team, so we really don't know the relationship between coach and player. Who knows, maybe everyone comes to the same conclusion that no change is necessary if we had all the information. The thing I worry about is the lack of improvement from guys we all want and need to be good. Another year of it won't do anyone any good, and could do permanent damage. Being too stubborn to make a needed change is just as bad as overreacting and constantly making changes just to make changes.

It took some time, but they didn't have to go full awful, and had a couple of entertaining seasons along the way. The clowns running the White Sox had rebuilding records when they were trying to win. Most teams with Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, and Adam Eaton signed to long term team friendly contracts, can make some things happen. Rick, Kenny and Jerry can get you 78 wins. It's one huge reason why I can't buy the team will have all these great young players and then augment them with more stars because they will have so much money to spend. They should have had some money to spend with these 3, and again, maxed out at 78 wins.

You still misstated a lot there. The Brewers didn't have to get awful for a long time to start winning. If they win it all, it may make some teams thinking of the total tank in the future, reconsider. And even in the era in which you are currently being misleading, they never had to be as awful as they have been now to get good again. They did tank after 1986, and even then, it wasn't as bad as now. The White Sox current problem is they have people in charge who couldn't recognize major league talent that was currently playing in the major leagues. Now those same people are supposed to be able to project minor leaguers into major leaguers. And if somehow they can do that, they are going to have to be successful at a task in which they have failed for years. They are already getting a pass on 2019 because they players they have touted aren't nearly as ready as Rick Hahn's comments from last year would seem to indicate was planned. Michael Kopech is throwing a lighter baseball 110 mph during the offseason. Awesome.!Who would possibly think he could blow out his elbow.

They traded a struggling young guy for a struggling young guy. Please explain to me this claim you made: you mean how Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee (traded for Scott Podsednik), Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed (Traded for Garcia), how those guys were all developed out of the strong, top-ranked White Sox system from 2000, Paul Konerko, developed by the White Sox out of the 2000 system? He has 29 plate appearances for White Sox minor league teams, and they were in 2008 and 2013. Carlos Lee? Might want to check where he was in 2000. It wasn't the minor leagues. Jeremy Reed was developed out the top ranked 2000 system even though he wasn't drafted until 2002. Miguel Olivo's first season with the White Sox organization was 2001.

As you said to Greg in another thread, if you are going to claim something, you might want to look it up. Mike Cameron was a mid .600 OPS guy when the Sox traded him for Paulie, and Paulie paid immediate dividends. There were no growing pains for him. You mention 2003. That was his 5th season with the team. He already put up 4 seasons of over .840 OPS.

Konerko set the team back a couple of years? He needed to be developed from scratch? 1999 was Paulies first season with the White Sox. He put up an .862 OPS, and had 3 similar seasons after that before his disastrous 2003 season.

The thing is, players don't seem to be as effective as they age, as before. It used to be many guys seemed like they could play until 40. Now, 32 is old. This year age 32 and over only 12 players had a 2.0 fWAR or higher. Only 5 had over 3.0 Age 35 and over only 5 had a 2.0 fWAR or higher, only 1 over 2.5. These are just hitters. Pitchers actually seem to age a little better. Carlton Fisk signed with the White Sox when he was a 33 year old catcher. He had 6 seasons over 3.0 fWAR and would have had another had there been no strike. He also had a 2.9.

They aren't similar, but I do think you have to look at things and ask, is there progress being made? Anderson has made progress defensively. A couple of others have as well. The question I have is offensively. What really do the White Sox have to hang their hat on? Who is improving? This is a time they need their young guys to develop. Maybe they can't get any better, but Moncada struggled. Anderson hit like he hit in 2017 when his friend's death was an excuse. Davidson added walks, but everything else...the same, with a little less power. Avi, hurt and a little backwards. Narvaez and Smith hit, but not really difference makers and is it something that will last? Catchers seem to go up and down offensively more than most. Engel, whatever. Delmonico, backwards. Palka was a nice discovery, but a ton of strikeouts, and no on base seems like a pretty good candidate to regress. Yolmer most likely is what he is. I won't pin that on a coach. I do think the hitting instruction needs to be dealt with. I would like to see if they could hire someone who can get a couple of these guys to take off. It seems most are stuck in mud.