Dick Allen

QUOTE (skooch @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 02:57 PM) I'm not sure if you get the concept of negotiations and leverage. And I'm sure it is his agent talking to the teams. I'd have my agent talk to the team I hated the most if I knew I could use them as leverage. And if they were my best or only offer and I had made almost 100 MM in my life, well I might still tell them to take-a-hike. I don't think 35 year olds who haven't played much the past 5 or 6 years,coming off elbow surgery have much leverage. I don't think I would give him a major league deal until I saw him swing a bat.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 03:17 PM) Who called them that? There are 3 teams with longer playoff droughts right now that I'd certainly rank as worse franchises, and a couple of the ones who made the playoffs in 2010-2011 don't exactly impress with their current moves. That's right, you haven't been in gamethreads.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 03:01 PM) I was going to rip this move, but I'll at least admit I was surprised at how good of numbers Morneau put up in the limited time that he actually played with the Rockies the past two seasons. I just wonder what the effect of another year and elbow surgery and missing time would have on him. And unless he is resigned that all he will get is some minor league make good deal, I really don't buy the White Sox being able to stealthly sign him before word gets out that he is ready to go. There are several teams looking for bats. But you are right, he has been better than probably most realize when he was able to play the past couple of years. More of a threat from the left side than JB Shuck.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 02:19 PM) The reason to highlight the Astros is - 2 of those 3 seasons, they didn't get the thing that comes with 105 losses that is supposed to make you better - a successful #1 pick. Yeah they had a larger international signing pool but what have they gotten from that so far? Out of those 3 seasons, they got "Carlos Correa and a draft as good as the one they'd have gotten if they'd won the world series". That's why they can be called "what should be the worst case scenario". Your franchise has no excuse if it can't do better than that. Their "success" was an 86 win season, and a playoff ouster. The unsuccessful, horrible, worst franchise in baseball White Sox have had an unsuccessful 90 win season in 2006, an unsuccessful 88 win season in 2010 and an unsuccessful 85 win season in 2012.

I'm not buying this. If Morneau was ready to sign with teams, I would imagine his agent(s) would have the word out. Coming off elbow surgery, probably will have really diminished power this year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 02:32 PM) Like I noted in the other thread it shouldn't take a team 20 years to rebuild even if they have an extremely weak farm system. It can take half a decade yes, but if your org can't recover in a 5-ish year period then your org is completely f***ed up and you don't get sympathy from me. The problem is you don't have 10 years, you have 4 or 5 or 6 if you are small market because once your guys get to free agency, you have to start again. You can trade them for more prospects sooner, but it's like throwing water off of a boat with a bucket. You're just buying time.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 02:21 PM) While it would be a different game, I don't think there's any reason to believe it would be a game with "more competitive balance" or a "better game overall" or even a "better league for small market teams" based on the results of the last decade. For the small market teams to be successful, they generally have to be bad for a longer period of time., and their windows are probably smaller.Could you imagine Boston or the Yankees stinking it up for 20 plus years like the Pirates or Royals? Slotting and draft pools have at least made the draft pretty fair. Although many teams blow through their international allotment, a loophole I believe needs to be shut.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 02:03 PM) If the salary money isn't allocated properly, it really isn't. Part of it is the money is and has been spent on players who weren't that good. Dunn, LaRoche and Danks come to mind. How about the money paid to Jeff Keppinger a guy the Sox signed and paid with a bum shoulder? Mark Unless you are operating a shoestring budget, there is going to be a lot of dead money paid out. Some people don't like the fact the Sox will be paying James Shields $27 million to pitch the next 2 1/2 years. Theo was able to give Edwin Jackson $26 million to stink up the joint for 2 years, and another $26 million for 2 more to pitch for other teams, all the while having $150 million for Lester, $200 million for Heyward and a bunch of money to Lackey and Zobrist. I do agree with you, we are nowhere near a baseball salary cap and may never be near one, but it would be an entirely different game if there happened to be one. Andrew Freidman was pretty good with no money in TB, and many assumed it may even be unfair when he had access to all the Dodger money, but like KW, it seems he may be more shrewd the less money he gets to spend.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 01:24 PM) I really do disagree. Take a look here - the leagues with the salary caps at best have "as much" competitive balance as MLB and in many ways MLB has more. MLB has more teams with titles in the past 10 years, similar numbers of teams finishing in the top 2, top 4, and top 8 (NBA top 4 almost never turns over). Each league has 4-7 franchises that haven't had a top 8 finish in a decade. MLB's system may not be as "effective" as a salary cap, but because of the way the draft and development system works in MLB and how random it is, and how bad of an investment the FA market is, teams can get around the money if they manage their org correctly. NBA vs. MLB is totally different. NBA has and always will be more easily prognosticated than any other sport. Especially in the playoffs. The best team wins more often. In baseball, with the change in the guy on the mound, you basically feature a different most games in a series. That's why around .500 is NBA hell but not NHL or NFL or MLB hell. A break here or there and you contend. Not in the NBA.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 01:43 PM) If they don't, then they've pulled off "more incompetent than a team that blew 2 #1 picks" and that's one heckuva job. Depending on your definition of incompetent, yes. But they wouldn't have had to sit through 3 straight seasons of at least 105 losses.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 01:19 PM) What's really amazing today is that we have the example of the Astros...a team that got the top pick 3 times in a row and completely blew 2 of them, and they were able to rebuild to a playoff team within 6 years of their last winning season. A team doing literally everything possible to f*** up a rebuild managed to get it done in 6 years. They may not turn into a title contender ever, they may miss the playoffs again this year, etc, but "we blew 2 of our 3 top picks and still made the playoffs within 6 years" is a nice lesson. The level of front office incompetence that the teams that are below .500 for longer than that have to display really must be remarkable. So the Sox should make the playoffs by 2018.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 01:15 PM) It's still not as effective as leagues with a salary cap. Anyway the point was the poster was trying to make it sound like JR wanted his heirs to sell the Sox and keep the Bulls because he doesn't care about the Sox as much. Which is actually the opposite because of the huge baseball fan he is. The true reason he told them to keep the Bulls is 1. He actually owns the Bulls whereas he owns a small portion of the sox and 2. It's much easier to compete in the NBA due to the salary cap structure. It's more fool proof as well. You would really have to be the Nets owner not to make money running the Bulls. As to the White Sox, I know someone who knows JR's son pretty well. From what he told me, I wouldn't expect a sale if they still have the team when JR departs.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 01:10 PM) Stop it 61-101 66-96 Joe Maddon's first 2 years. Why did they let him continue? 69-93 66-94 81-80 50-56 78-84 Bobby Cox's first 5 seasons. Who else would ever even interview him? Loser.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 12:55 PM) All you need to know about Robin Ventura is that he never aspired to be a manager, his teams have been terrible under his tenure, and he'll never interview for a managerial job ever again, let alone manage a big league game after this season. He's in a class by himself for the only franchise that would go this way for this long. 49-68 66-96 63-99 67-95 41-62 Joe Torre's first 5 years as a manager with the Mets. He was hired the next season to manage Atlanta.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) The Sox either traded or let some really good players walk between 1995 and 1998. The organization suffered in the short-term, but were better off in the long-term (beginning in 2000). If the Sox are mired in mediocrity next July, I could see them trading a few key players for young, ML-ready talent and doing a proper rebuild around their better young players. Given this organization's past, I don't see them continuing on the current path indefinitely. If JR decides to sell the team in the foreseeable future, he'll definitely dump the higher-salaried players to maximize the organization's value. For some reason I was looking at the stats for the 1999 White Sox a couple of weeks ago. I think they won 76 games in a rebuilding year. The fascinating thing about them was they had a solid offensive team. A different era, but Carlos Lee was a rookie and he was 8th on the team with a .775 OPS. Greg Norton isn't remembered fondly, but he had an OPS over .780. They had 6 regulars over .800.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 11:21 AM) I read today where Robin said Putnam has a sore elbow again. I don't know what his status is or will be moving forward. Mark He has had shoulder issues each of the past 2 seasons as well. He can be really effective, but he isn't a guy you can count on answering the bell enough to hold down a late inning spot.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 06:36 AM) Thornton was done the moment Jim Thome touched him up in the 2nd half of 2010...even though he lived on until this day in the big leagues. Forgot Jones, 3 rookies. Considering where he was drafted and his lack of success starting, that has to qualify as another success overall. Crain is an example that supports the Don Cooper Theory of Excellence. (Brett Myers and Liriano do not). And the fact that Jake Peavy could be rehabilitated through a once in a lifetime surgery and come out the other side AND get back Avi/Montas or Iglesias and not have to subsidize any of his salary was a minor Don miracle. (Except for when he faced the Tigers that year). Myers and Ohman? More indictments of KW/Hahn. HAIL HAHN! Now Peavy is a Cooper success story? A month ago you wrote how overrated he was and mentioned erroneously he never beat Detroit. Get your stories straight. Besides if it's Robin's fault all these guys suck, it must be to his credit Peavy was good after the surgery since he managed him then. Forget the surgeon. He had nothing to do with it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 10:11 AM) Apparently having the fifth worst record in baseball during his tenure and losing records against the Twins, Indians, Royals and Tigers isn't good enough...is it really a "shocker" to both Hahn and KW that generally you should have a .500 record or above (within the division) in order to win the AL Central??? Collapses in September, 2012, the entire 2013 season, early 2015 and May, 2016 clearly aren't evidence enough. He's likely to go on and become a HoF manager, well, because other HoF managers at some point early in their careers also managed teams "lacking in talent." I put that in quotes because I'm not sure it's altogether fair to assert all these Sox teams have been talentless. Yet in another thread you claim Cooper is absolved from any blame due to lack of talent. Using the criteria that seems to be in place by many on this board, there is not a manager alive who would have taken the job when Robin did, who should still be employed.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) Not 1 logical reason RV has a job. If the Sox were run like a real organization and not a country club. Yet no one has answered the question.

QUOTE (Tex @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 09:14 AM) And how are you going to measure more wins? Based on this (temporary) slump that the team would have played out of anyways (no way to predict one way or another)? Based on year to date? Based on the hot start? There just isn't any objective evidence after the fact. I would measure it in contention down to the last days of the season. It worked when the Marlins fired Torborg and replaced him with Trader Jack, but they did leave out, the Marlins also called up Miguel Cabrera and Dontrell Willis at the same time. Would they have won if Torborg wasn't replaced? We will never know, but they more than likely would have improved.

I should have made the thread you're Rick Hahn, you want to fire Robin. You have to make your case to JR. JR is going to want some logic that says a guy like Rick Renteria will produce more wins. The Ron Washington line, that's how baseball go, won't work. Would you be willing to put your neck and job on the line that a guy like Renteria would translate into more wins? What's your ammo?

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 08:49 AM) So you are on the side of- it is not the manager, its is the General Manager/ Team President's fault for putting together a roster that simply cannot get it done? After a major disappointing 2015 season, the only guy to get fired was Mark Parent. Who will it be this year after they finish 78-84? I'm guessing Bobby Thigpen and Todd Steverson. I cannot stand the lack of accountability this organization demonstrates annually. This team is indeed ran luck a country club. A bunch of friends hanging out (JR, KW, Hahn and Robin) having fun, win or lose it does not matter because they are still making money. What I am asking is if they hired your dream manager for the 2012 season and the rosters were exactly the same, how much more winning does this team do? For Hahn and KW or both to fire Robin now, they would be putting their necks on the line because if the team didn't suddenly improve, the arrow points at them. Would anyone blame them for not doing that? Robin is the scapegoat for this season if they fail. If they fire him and still fail, it goes up the ladder.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 08:43 AM) You're forgetting Cox, Torre, Leyland, etc. Baseball is a business. It used to be results-oriented. Let's not act like the 2011/12 and 2015 and 2016 teams were completely lacking in talent or expectations. It's easy to say that after the fact, with hindsight. We have had a losing record against all four AL Central teams since 2009. I can understand that with the Tigers and Detroit, but not with the Indians and a rebuilding Twins' organization as well. What I can't understand is the disparity in records head-to-head, and the fact we can almost never win key ALCD games in August and September (which goes back to the Guillen years, too). They've changed almost all of the players other than Sale and Quintana from 4 years ago and are still making the same sorts of mistakes and suffering from the same issues that plagued the team every month except for April, 2016. Right now, that one month seems more like an anomaly than a sea-change or progression in Ventura's managerial ability. We've also had the fifth worse record in the major leagues during his tenure, and almost all of the teams in the bottom 10-12 have changed managers/GM's at least once if not twice during that time. What is it that the White Sox see in Robin Ventura that nobody else does? In the end, it doesn't matter how much the organization believes in him if it's not backed up with results...with another 3rd or 4th place finish comes even less revenue to work with next season, and the downward cycle continues until there is no choice left but to trade Eaton/Sale/Q/Robertson and possibly Rodon. I'm pretty sure very few White Sox fans at that point would continue to support the manager and GM that put them in that position in the first place. JR can do what he likes, it's his team after all, but cutting off your nose to spite your face probably isn't the hallmark of most good businessmen. How many more wins does another manager get? J Joe Torre NY Mets 49-68 66-96 63-99 67-95 41-62 who would ever hire him after that? No other team would ever want him. Yet the next season he was hired by Atlanta. Lasted 3 years, fired, hired right away by 2St. Louis. Lasted 3 or 4 years, fired. Hired the very next season by the Yankees. NY press blasted the move. This guy is the baseball idiot of idiots. The rest is history. This works with coaches as well. Leo Mazzone was the famed can't be topped pitching coach of the Atlanta Braves. He was a genius when he had Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux..he took the money and went to Baltimore with crappy pitchers, wound up out of work. Remember the Greg Walker, lift and pull crap on here? First off, he never preached lift and pull, but posters here were so enthralled with Rudy Jaramillo (who actually was a lift and pull guy) they wanted the Sox to replace Walker with whoever Jaramillo's assistant was. Rudy goes to the Cubs when they have crappy hitters, and all of a sudden he goes from guru to guy who doesn't belong in a major league dugout.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 08:28 AM) Robin Ventura = Tony La Russa #HotTakesbyDickAllen Never said that. I do think he is similar to Joe Torre. Check out Torre's managerial record before he had top of the line rosters.

Everyday I read when a player screws up, Robin is a bumbling fool...and all the rest. My question is, if the rosters were the same since he became the manager, how many more playoff appearances and in legitimate contention seasons would the White Sox have had if they hired someone else? I read constantly how short of talent this current team is, and they do seem on paper to have more talent than most of the others under his leadership. How many more wins and trophies does say Ricky Renteria running things translate into? I like Robin, but if there really was a compelling case other than total desperation which never works anyway to remove him , I would be all for it. It just seems some like to play both sides of the fence. The players suck, the front office and coaching staff are totally incompetent, yet, if you read gamethreads, this team should win at least 120 games if managed correctly. Wouldn't that make the talent gathering people outstanding? Robin is a fool if he uses Scott Carroll with a 5 run lead in the 8th, then he is a fool for using his closer with a 6 run lead in the 9th because now you should never use your closer in a non closing situation. Good thing the Sox never tried to hire Maddon. He uses Rondon is non save appearances quite often. There are so many things like this. This player should never bat second, a week later, why isn't he batting second? On and on and on. Renteria, Maddon, Gardenhire, Alomar, take your pick. How many more wins and playoff appearances does it translate into? Hindsight is a beautiful thing. When Tony LaRussa was fired, there weren't thousands of White Sox fans crying in their beer. In fact, most were probably toasting Hawk for doing it. Now Hawk is one of the biggest fools who ever lived, but LaRussa was fired in 1986, replaced by Fregosi who actually won a higher percentage of games that year. The total rebuild of 1987-1989 with really no chance to compete would have meant, had LaRussa stayed he would have had at least 4 years and 5 out of 6 after winning the division of horrible teams. Considering how people use Robin's W-L record against him, how would Tony have survived that? Obviously this has been an awful stretch of baseball. But they still are .500, maybe for a few more hours, maybe for the rest of the season. It will get better.They aren't as good as 23-10, they aren't as bad as 6-19. It was interesting they showed about 5 or 6 teams that went through a similar bad stretch during a season and still won a WS. I wouldn't predict that, but, if Hahn gets another bat, some of this will turn around.