iamshack

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 01:48 PM) Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN 5m Joe Nathan is being shopped by the Rangers for an established hitter, other teams say. More than just internal talks. That's not good for the Rios talks. Damn you Rangers I wonder if that means they think Feliz can step in there...

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 01:49 PM) If Jake gets traded when I am work tonight I will be really pissed. Well that is quite selfish of you

Passan also mentioned the asking price was indeed more than what Texas gave up for Garza.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 12:38 PM) I wonder if Jerry Reinsdorf even cares how bad a team he owns. I wonder what he does on a Sunday afternoon. Cottage on the lake? Or does he go to the games? Gotta give KC credit for pulling off the sweep for first time since 1999 in the Cell (unless somehow we come back and win). Oh Greg...

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 12:08 PM) Dunn hasn't homered since the All Star break. I wonder why the Sox suddenly have no power. Sox are really defenseless unless the pitcher hurls a shutout and we don't get many of those either. Everybody's laying off the drugs

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 11:44 AM) I'd rather we keep losing but f***ing look better on the field and stop losing games by looking like morons. You're a better man than I...I can't watch if I'm going to be asked to cheer for either of those outcomes...and honestly, I don't think the former would happen nearly as much if we accomplished the latter.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 12:36 PM) He was so bad yesterday. I don't see how any GM would give up anything of value for this guy. Hate to be so negative, but Lindstrom? He's just another Boone Logan type of pitcher IMO. Just another guy. This act is so goddamned tired. You don't know a damned thing about the business of MLB.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 08:03 AM) My favorite North American cities, in no particular order: Vancouver SF Seattle Yeah, Vancouver is another great city...and Montreal...

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 06:39 AM) I do agree with this. No way Rangers get Stanton, Edcarncion, or bautista. What other bats are "better" than Rios? Maybe Pence but I don't think so. Rangers are blowing smoke. The question is how much of a bigger impact can Rios make than what they have already? And is that worth what the Sox are asking for? Not likely.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 07:19 AM) Let's say your employer comes to you and says: 1. We're going to double your pay 2. We'd like you to change locations 3. You can work anywhere in the USA or Canada, except those poopy French parts Where do you go? I'd imagine some folks will stay put and others will hightail it outta there. I think I'd go to Boulder, CO I'd love to live in SF, but not sure doubling my pay would make that any more feasible than it is now SD possibly...or Malibu...Colorado isn't a bad choice either, Jake

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 10:10 PM) Toni Ginnetti ‏@toniginnetti 2h Sox closing in on trading Peavy http://voices.suntimes.com/none/sox-closin...-trading-peavy/ … via @suntimes Hah, what a cock tease. One interesting part of that is that it says Peavy may not make his scheduled start Tuesday.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 06:51 PM) Shack ... A wrestler? Oh no, man. The great Cecilio ("Cy") Acosta was a Mexican relief pitcher who joined the Sox in June of 1972 as part of that really enjoyable 1972 Sox team, that featured 20 year olds Terry Forster and Rich Gossage in the bullpen. Loved that team and Cy Acosta (good old #41) has long been one of those "blast from the past names" that some of my contemporaries enjoy hearing. His baseball card is my avatar! That's no wrestler, man!!! As for your post, I think you're misunderstanding me. You're suggesting with language like "this sort of usage" or "using a product incorrectly" that I'm implying that Crain was used incorrectly. I think nothing of the sort. So I never get to your rhetorical question of "does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur." When I say that Crain was perhaps borderline overused, I mean that he was on the cusp of being used more than I might have preferred (given factors relevant to Crain's career). I simply wish circumstances had been different so that we had the option to "baby" him a little. Unfortunately: (a) there really wasn't a way around it since we've got to try and win games during that May time when he was used so much, and (b) it wasn't as if he was used in an unreasonable or excessive way, instead he was slightly more, just minimally more, than I might have preferred. That's baseball. Gotta play the game with the players on the roster. Cy, the Goose, and that "Fat tub of Goo" weren't available! Personally, I think going back in time and looking at the past from what we know now (Jesse being injured; this Sox team, essentially sucking) is a great disservice to Ventura or Coop, UNLESS they used him wayyyyyyyyy too much, in a way that was way out of the bell-curve. And they didn't. In my opinion, most of his heavy use happened in May, as they battled to get to .500 in very late May. He barely pitched during the 9 game losing streak because he wasn't needed. Then he pitched a few games ... was off to give his arm a week breather ... pitched a few more games ... and then the DL stint. He's a paid, professional pitcher that was part of a bullpen. His manager and pitching coach leaned on him, but in a way that you need to be able to lean on a quality professional. Sure, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, had we known that his arm wouldn't hold up, then we might have babied him. However, had we done that, professional scouts would have also recognized that they couldn't rely on a pitcher like that anyway, so poof, there goes his trade value as well. Damned if you do; damned if you don't. It's unfortunate for Jesse that his injury likely curtailed his career year; it's unfortunate for the White Sox that his injury happened when it all but eliminated any real trade value (although, I still think someone will take a flyer on him on a PTBNL type trade); but no way do I think anyone is "guilty" of mis or overusing him. Cy...my bad! I was thinking of Cyclone Anaya!

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 07:06 PM) What you call trolling I call reacting with honest emotion (anger). It was obvious the guy was going to dive. By diving, no matter what happens (ball landing in glove or hitting ground) Rios scores if he tags up. Seriously, listen to the Royals' announcers call of the play. Hudler busted out laughing and said something like. 'what more can they do (to help KC)?" I am in favor of keeping Robin after he showed he was a leader in disciplining Rios, but how many of these type games can he take before just resigning in the offseason?? Greg, you just hate Rios and spaz anytime you can. Get over it.

Sorry guys...

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 06:18 PM) Where you see that? Someone texted me...he still out there?

Rios pulled?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 03:30 PM) I can't think of a single organization I can ever remember obviously doing this. Can you give a couple examples? That would be pretty difficult to prove, don't you think?

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 03:09 PM) You're a lawyer too, right? Then you probably noticed that I hedged my bet. It's not up on my screen right now, but I think I said that "I believe that he was borderline overworked" [emphasis added]. I used the hedge because while I do think he was used more than I would have liked him to be used in a perfect baseball world (and we all know the 2013 White Sox are existing in far from a perfect baseball world). Crain's long and short term history suggests his shoulder gets fatigued. We can debate all day long whether this happens from getting thrown out there too many consecutive days, or whether it's from too many pitches in any given outing, or whether it's nothing more than the nature of Jesse Crain being basically a little guy with a max-effort delivery who throws the heck out of the baseball. But, I do think most Sox fans have been aware that we need to keep an eye on Crain. As you suggest -- correctly, I think -- whether his injury was foreseeable or not, Ventura and Cooper had little choice other than to risk it. You play the game to win. Crain, when healthy, was having a monster season. Actually, an incredible season. And as far as the set-up guys go, early, other than some decent work by Lindstrom in relatively low-leverage situations, Crain was the only guy we could count on. Jones was awful early in the season; Thornton was what he now is - the ghost of Matt Thornton past. We needed Jesse out there. He did the job. Repeatedly. Even his teammates were in awe of what the guy was doing. Did "possibly" being overworked a bit (but I don't go so far as to say that he was ridden unreasonably hard) add to the likelihood of fatigue or injury? Maybe. It might have. But you can say something similar each time Chris Sale has to throw high leverage pitches in the 7th or 8th, or each of the many times that Addison Reed has a +20 pitch one inning. That's inherent in being a big league pitcher. It's all part of the mix and we only know for sure after the fact. But the Sox paid Jesse Crain to pitch. And the "overworking" - if there was any - happened while the Sox were still sniffing around .500, in any case long before anyone was truly worried about Jesse Crain being a prime trading chip. I can't blame Ventura, Coop, or Hahn one bit for Crain's fatigue/injury. Actually, I'm a lot more pissed about Robin bringing Peavy out for the 8th yesterday -- because HERE you have a guy coming off of an injury, with a good game already under his belt, and you unnecessarily and unreasonably put a then known trading chip at risk with absolutely nothing to be gained and with so much to lose! Good discussion Shack! Thanks Cy...I think we chatted briefly before because I enjoyed your handle...I went to a bar/restaurant a few years back in Houston named Cy Acosta's...he was a wrestler, correct? Let me ask you this...do you think that just because actual harm doesn't always occur by this sort of usage, it's therefore acceptable? Let's say I'm using a product incorrectly, but in 95% of the cases I misuse it, nothing bad happens. Since harm does not occur every time, does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 02:47 PM) I get this too, but the one point Marty could make here is that by June, it was already pretty clear this season was down the toilet, particularly by mid-june. Another inning by Crain wasn't making the difference for the season by the time June 21 rolled around. Oh agreed. s***, look how we used Peavy Thursday. Robin definitely seems to be a guy that is going to just let guys go if they say they are good... I am not entirely opposed to Marty's point here; I think Robin's a bit reckless in the way he uses his pitchers. But generally I think it's for the right reasons.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 01:01 PM) Wow. Talk about not understanding the game. ANY pitch can be a pitcher's last pitch. Sure, IF a pitcher is actually overworked (and I personally believe that Crain was borderline overworked earlier in this year), such overwork MIGHT increase the likelihood of significant injury, but all pitchers run the risk of serious injury each time they rock and fire the pill. One of the major orthopods -- perhaps Jobs or Andrews -- was asked about pitcher X being "unlucky" because they suffered a career derailing arm injury while guys like Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux just rolled along year after year after year. The Good Doctor stopped the questioner cold and said something like: "Guys like Ryan and Maddux are freaks ... NOBODY'S arm should be able to withstand the repetitive abuse of the inherently unnatural pitching motion ... it's a matter of time, a matter of luck, but arms are simply designed to fail." I think all Sox fans are upset about the incredibly poor timing of Crain being injured yet again (and it is "yet again" because he's had minor arm injury issues throughout his career). It sucks. Such poor timing. Like with Gavin Floyd earlier in the year, a relatively healthy Crain would have been a really nice trading chip for a rebuilding team. But it's another thing altogether to play the blame game for losing that trading chip. Crain was here to pitch for the White Sox. Period. He wouldn't have been considered a potentially valuable trading chip if he hadn't pitched for the White Sox (and pitched successfully). Blaming Ventura, or Cooper, or Hahn, or anyone for NOT having the ability to see into the future is ridiculous, UNLESS the alleged "overworking" was so patently extreme that no reasonable baseball people would have done anything remotely similar. And no way are Ventura, Cooper, or Hahn guilty of "overworking" Crain by that standard. Cry all you want about a lost opportunity, Marty, but blaming anyone is absolutely wrong. PS - To those who tell me I shouldn't bother "feeding a troll" ... I don't care. This post is less about arguing with Marty, than it is throwing out some thoughts about pitching and injuries. Some great stuff in there, and I agree you can't say with any reasonable certainty when or how or why Crain got injured. I know you're a lawyer...don't you think I can make a pretty good case that if you believe Crain was overworked, and you stated that you believe he might have been, that that increased the likelihood of him suffering an injury? While any one pitch might be the one that causes an injury, that doesn't mean that you throw out all the other contributing factors. Too much work leads to fatigue which often leads to bad mechanics which increases the chances of sustaining injury. To me, the argument isn't whether he was overworked, but rather, was the rationale or reasoning for his frequent usage justifiable? I would argue yes. He was in the final year of his deal (likely no future with our club). He wasn't a young, developing player. We desperately needed him to attempt to stay in contention. RV did what he had to to try and keep the ship afloat. The intention was never to use Crain as an asset to trade until it was too late.

That's also an article for Espn Boston

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 12:48 PM) I hate to say it, but I agree with Marty. Crain was overused and several posters had acknowledged that in those stretches in May and June where not only his appearances and innings were up but his pitches were at crazy levels. Ventura has a certain lack of foresight. Whoever had said RV has a track record is full of it. Well, the difference is, the premise then was to win and actually be competitive for a playoff spot. It was never to trade Jesse Crain. Had that been the case from the outset, perhaps he would have been used differently.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 12:18 PM) How about posters who start trade rumor threads outside the trade rumor section? Three lashings

BTW, Best Buy is having a "Black Friday" in July event today.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 12:09 PM) That is interesting but why does Beckham's injury change things? Berkman's injury