quickman

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 10:14 AM) We're talking about a four year deal, not a ten year deal here. It's obvious that the Sox really don't want to keep Buehrle that much. Didn't they know he was going to ask for a NTC. Fathom why so emotional? With the exception of this year the sox have been in contention for many years, they are usually one player short and its not necessarily the prime players. last year we won 90 games and we would have won the division if Buerhle was himself and andersen was slightly decent. We easily could have won 6 more games if not for those two underperformers alone. Once you get emotional about players every perspective gets lost except the emotion. Buerhle was going to get 14 million a year and a typical Buerhle season is about 14 or 15 wins. Thats a million dollars a win. I think that is pretty fair and who knows what the market will be later. Buehrle wants added security and the sox want a way out of the contract (via Trade) if they deem so at a particular time. I think thats fair as well. No team should be handcuffed. In fact I would argue the sox were handcuffed on contraras this year until he said he would waive his no trade to the mets. I am actually not siding with anyone but it seems that this contract with a limtied no trade clause is somewhere in the middle of what both wanted.

QUOTE(aboz56 @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 08:51 AM) Williams better give in on this or he is going to be hated by Sox fans for years to come. I don't think he will and I do think he percieves the risk including empty ballparks, but people are much different than 15 years ago. I truly think they know its about money all the time and the best deal. Now this is a bit different because a player actually wants to stay here. It appears he offered a partial no trade clause which is is good.

I think KW has a point but I am speaking as a businessman and a manager. If he gives a full no trade clause to Buerhle then more if not all players resigning or free agents coming would want the same thing. He is saying he will not be able to build teams as he will eventually be handcuffed because everyone wants a no trade clause. You can argue both sides but he does not want to set a precedent for the team. I understand that, because baseball loves precedents and the players union and players work off them all the time. This org has been very paroniod about pitchers for years they gave into a 4th year and quite frankly made a nice offer with a limited no trade clause. They moved from there position, now its time to ship Buehrle out. Companies work from a system and have only little room to make exceptions because it truly effects all other employees of the company. I learned many years ago that liking players means nothing, because quite frankly they could care less about you. QUOTE(Scwible @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 08:46 AM) What a bunch of crap. I'll give Jose a no trade but not Mark because he can't deal with those kind of contracts, WTF is that? That is not what he did. You have your facts wrong

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 10:19 AM) One more thing....if we're not willing to make this deal happen for Buehrle, you might as well go ahead and trade Garland then. He's going to want/get in the 14 million dollar range also, and I'm sure he'll want a NTC. This is what I said in another psot. people laughed and said garland was the staple of the rotation. Garland should be traded this year not next.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 10:14 AM) ...it won't be "dead" until he's traded elsewhere. Either way, I'm losing interest. They had me, and then they lost me... I really don't care anymore. If this thing is dead lets get on with the trades.

Just trade him and move on. Lets get something for these guys. By the time this is done I will be sick of the player anyway. Every team should have the right to trade a guy. Your giving him millions of dollars play the game and shut up.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 09:53 PM) I'm not buying this at all. You can't hang your hat on Javy or Conteras? Please! That is ridiculous. Tadahito is starting to hit and play better. I think you will get some teams interested in him mighty quickly. Once Jermain Dye gets healthy and proves so then he will have a lot of interest. Plus if by overrate you mean market and sell our players for the highest price possible - yes I hope the White Sox do do this. If they don't I would be extremely pissed off. The rest of baseball decides what they will pay. Just like the teams that paid the price for Freddy Garcia and Victor Zambrano. Just like the teams that pay the free agent contracts to Zito and AROD. You don't need all of the teams to be willing to pay that price - you just need one. The rest is selling and posturing, which is what every good GM and agent does. It is silly to want or expect anything less from your team. You make it sound so bad. It is not a bad thing. Hey don't get me wrong I say trade them all. Your not winning with them. But I do think we tend to overrate the value of what we have, therefore thinking we can get more for them. Thats all. I do not get emotionally attached to any player. They are nothing to me at all. i do expect for my 15k a year I give the whitesox that they field a competitive aggressive team that is exciting to watch, otherwise they are all worthless to me. My point in all this is I don't think Buerhle is worth two premier highly rated Minor leaguers, yet Kw is doing his job to get that, unfortunatly he may not get that cause other orgs may be just as smart or smarter. Buerhle is not a number one that can carry a team like clemons or shilling used to do. He is simply a nice peice that would help all teams. QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 09:59 PM) I could see teams not being interested in Jose for obvious reason, but not Javy? Now that is complete bull. Javy has been great for the past 2 halves. But you know what, I don't care as I want Javy to stay on this team. And if I was a GM, I wouldn't be interested in Iguchi or Dye either, for obvious reasons once again. These next 2 weeks are gonna be huge for us if we want something good via trade. Lets hope Iguchi starts to rake, and Dye shows signs of being "healthy" and shows good power. Also, it would be nice if Jose has a couple dominant starts. And the White Sox really need to add that 72-hour negotiation window. It clearly seems to me that the White Sox would not be willing to come close to matching any offer Buehrle would get in the open market. amen, I hope they all go on massive hitting streaks so we can trade them and start the re-build. I just wish crede was healthier so we could have dumped him as well, although I do like his glove. QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 09:59 PM) I could see teams not being interested in Jose for obvious reason, but not Javy? Now that is complete bull. Javy has been great for the past 2 halves. But you know what, I don't care as I want Javy to stay on this team. And if I was a GM, I wouldn't be interested in Iguchi or Dye either, for obvious reasons once again. These next 2 weeks are gonna be huge for us if we want something good via trade. Lets hope Iguchi starts to rake, and Dye shows signs of being "healthy" and shows good power. Also, it would be nice if Jose has a couple dominant starts. And the White Sox really need to add that 72-hour negotiation window. It clearly seems to me that the White Sox would not be willing to come close to matching any offer Buehrle would get in the open market. Personally I think the sox wanted to dump buehrle get some hot prospects then go back in the winter and match the offer he would get from another team. Thats why JR doesn't want to give the 72 hour window because he knows he will lose buerhle. Now they are finding out that teams won't give them what they want therefore changing there plan. They should learn from this because they will be in the same boat with garland. either extend him now or trade him now or else next year its the same thing. QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 09:59 PM) I could see teams not being interested in Jose for obvious reason, but not Javy? Now that is complete bull. Javy has been great for the past 2 halves. But you know what, I don't care as I want Javy to stay on this team. And if I was a GM, I wouldn't be interested in Iguchi or Dye either, for obvious reasons once again. These next 2 weeks are gonna be huge for us if we want something good via trade. Lets hope Iguchi starts to rake, and Dye shows signs of being "healthy" and shows good power. Also, it would be nice if Jose has a couple dominant starts. And the White Sox really need to add that 72-hour negotiation window. It clearly seems to me that the White Sox would not be willing to come close to matching any offer Buehrle would get in the open market. Personally I think the sox wanted to dump buehrle get some hot prospects then go back in the winter and match the offer he would get from another team. Thats why JR doesn't want to give the 72 hour window because he knows he will lose buerhle. Now they are finding out that teams won't give them what they want therefore changing there plan. They should learn from this because they will be in the same boat with garland. either extend him now or trade him now or else next year its the same thing.

QUOTE(chisox72 @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 09:29 PM) Its all posturing. Look at how "overrated" we made Brandon McCarthy seem last year? He was too good to trade to anyone based on all of the hyping up that the Sox did. Because of that hyping, we were able to take the best pitching prospect in the Rangers organization AND one of their better prospects that got some big league time at the end of last season. Exit polling would show that we did VERY well in that because we were able to make Texas "overrate" what B-Mac would bring. I don't think its bull. I think its good marketing. We aren't going to get s*** if we act like what we are looking to move is s***, are we? You are so right, we overrated mcarthy and made him look good enough and found a donkey to take him. Thats great, Buerhle though is pretty much a known commodity. Is he worth two high prospects? Not to most people but maybe fabricating or embellishing who may be involved in wanting him they may get more. I think my comment was just meant to say its how the whitesox work. There is always some sub plot hanging out there that needs explaining. Nothing is simple with this team. Always questions, comments, contraversies,always something. Its just always been that way.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 05:51 PM) If we're intent on trading him, then you have to give that negotiating window. KW and JR should view the next 24 hours as the final chance to get Buehrle locked up for the next 4 years. this is typical whitesox bull. We overrate our players and the rest of baseball knows it.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 10:21 PM) I'm torn. This team is old and in desperately need of an influx of young talent and it's going to be tough to do that from within considering how weak the Sox' farm system is, especially when it comes to position players. So trading away a player of Buehrle's caliber should help big time in that regard. However it appears KW isn't being offered anywhere near the sort of talent you'd expect to receive in any Buehrle deal, so restocking the farm through a deal involving Mark doesn't look like it would work. The Sox' front office could instead choose to sell off other pieces such as Jose Contreras or even Javier Vazquez both of whom are signed long term and have reportedly caught the eye of a few GMs around baseball. Besides freeing up the money owed to Jose would be a huge asset in free agency. There's also Jermaine who should have some decent trade value if he can get back on the field within the next week or so. Then there's the financial aspect. I don't buy the 4 year, $50M offer one bit, it just seems like too much of a weak deal for a player of Mark's caliber. He should be looking at 1-2 more years and $20-$40M added on to that. So realistically I'd expect Mark to re-sign for a deal closer to 5 years, $75M. After doing some research this week I had a very tough time finding any starting pitchers who received a 5+ year deal and actually performed consistently well through out the entire length of the deal. Names like Park, Millwood, Colon, Dreifort, Brown and the best comparison of all, Mike Hampton who was actually a year younger than Mark and a better pitcher at the time he signed his 8 year deal with Colorado, he also had the same clean bill of health that Mark has had over the course of his 7 year career. Hampton hasn't pitched in 2 years now and that deal is now considered one of the worst in the history of the game. I just don't see how Buehrle is any different. So the chances of Mark living up to the expectations set upon him by a 5 year deal are pretty slim if history is any indication. That being said the man is the face of the franchise, a team/community leader and one of the better starting pitchers in the game so it'd be tough to see him go. If the deal is 5 years and anymore than $70M I'd say let him walk and take the 2 comp picks if you can't find a good enough trade. With the team's financial constraints the way that they are, it's not a great idea to have .30% of your payroll tied up in 2 players (Mark, Paul). If the deal is as reported today, 4 years, $50-$60M I do that in an absolute heartbeat. I'll also add that if Mark does end up inking a deal for 5 years and close to $80M I'll be happy to have him back. I personally wouldn't sign him to such a deal if I were the GM but as a fan it would be great to have Mark around for the next 5 years. Sox have a weak farm system? Who could tell? By this board I thought it was great.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 08:26 PM) How can you say Javy's been better than Garland and Buehrle? doesn't matter the pitcher you want to get rid of is contraras. lets get somehtign for him then work on a deal for dye. then next year dump crede and Anderson. Looks good to me. QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 09:36 PM) I don't like the secrecy and rumors about this Buehrle situation. The White Sox are like part of the family to me and this is driving nuts. I am going into hibernation until we have a solution. Defrost me when it is over. families lie all the time

QUOTE(Steff @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 03:22 PM) Somehow, I doubt Bill Gates would agree with you, but whatever. I know he wouldn't I work for him and have worked for him for 17 years.

quite frankly everyone is lying, the reporters the agent and the whitesox. Its typical WhiteSox way. That said I am sure Buerhle will resign. I am sure the agent has not talked to KW. He has been to talking to Rick Hahn the whole time. maybe somebody from the Buerhle camp talked to rick and got things moving. Doesn't mean the agent started. This way everyone can say they were right which seems to be important the Whitesox. Typical crap. I would though like to see some changes to this team and get new blood because this team is terrible.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 09:56 PM) Anderson has been injured (shoulder) of late and suffered a slight concussion yesterday. He's been DH'ing for the majority of the time since being demoted due to his shoulder injury. So it would have made no sense to promote Anderson when he's incapable of playing the field, I doubt it has anything to do with them "hating him." I think they still hate him but good point anyway.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 08:02 PM) Now this is from a 100 pct accurate source....the 3rd round pick of the Sox was supposedly told by the Cubs and Devil Rays he'd be picked in the 2nd room. He was upset that he wasn't picked in the 2nd round, but he was thrilled when the team he loves picked him in the 3rd. and he loves the sox because we have developed so many great players? I actually believe you about your source, but I do not think GM's actaully do alot of scouting. I think they put a plan forward and have there best people execute the plan. I think the sox scouts are mediocre at best and I also think there are not enough of them. Its the system that fails not necesarily the GM.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 08:01 PM) My guess is there was some debate...Shaffer was backing ring, most of the org was backing Blanton but the org let Shaffer make the call and he opted with his guy (afterall while Kenny has the final call, when it came to the draft Shaffer really was the guy who for the most part is making the call). I just know one thing...I freaking loved the way the draft worked out for the club this year. Please tell me why you loved the way the draft turned out this year?

Well as most of you know I hate all our farm players and think they are all very highly overrated. That said I actaully like fields and am willing to let him play the rest of this year to really see what he has. Right now he stikes out way to much. He needs better concentration and needs to hit to the other side, but this season is over so why not let him play. In addition with all the injuries we have in the outfield I think its very telling that Andersen is not being called to play. I hate the guy but I think this shows that the sox really hate him too. He must have really pissed them off with his goofy attitude.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 05:44 PM) Sweeney and Gio for Theriot. Solid. fine sweeney blows, Jury is still out on the great GIO.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 05:38 PM) The only way you rush this trade is if they're blowing you away with the proposal. KW's been getting offers for Buehrle for a month now, so he had a decent idea of what he migth be able to get. We should just start looking for any Red Sox minor leaguer who did good in Winter Ball. He waits and finds the best match up and team. He needs to get two players that will start next year and will need to become potential all stars. In addition and this is compeltely off the cuff, I would try very hard in another deal to get Ryan Thieriot from the cubs. He is the perfect grinder player much like Eckstein. He can be a our starting 2b baseman for many years and would not cost the Sox a huge amount. I would give the cubs there choice of anyone 2 players on our minor league roster. They all suck anyway. Even the great GIO.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 05:24 PM) Bingo. I really think an extended Buehrle could fetch that. I don't think it matters one bit if buerhle is extended at this time. The red sox have huge pockets and can negotiate anytime they damn well please. In addition, they unlike the crappy whitesox are actually trying and spending to win the world series again. They really don't give a damn if they spend an extra 5 million to get a ballplayer. KW will wait until he gets the players he wants to build around. hopefully thats a middle infielder that can hit and a high potential starting pitcher who will indeed make the damn rotation next year unlike gavin floyd.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 04:18 PM) Go Brewers! Thanks to everyone on the Sox who brought us 2005. completely agree if there is any team I want to win now its the brewers. They play hard, there young and milwaukee is a great town and deserves a chance.

Look KW is just going to sit back for awhile and scout teams and find the best package he can. Might be a day might be a week or two weeks, but buerhle will go and it will be the start of a new era. I also believe there will be more trades after Buerhle. Dye for sure when he gets back from the DL. I for one am enjoying this

quite frankly I don't see why it matters who we trade right now. This team is not getting it done. We need to totally mix it up and start fresh. Everyone should be available to trade on a team that is two games out fo last place. Furthermore there are all kinds of man crushes on our minor league players, right now nobody has stepped up and other than Josh fields who is still not ready, nobody will step up because they just are not that good. Get other teams young players now. With the way things are going we will also have a top 5 draft pick. Most teams can't screw up that early in the draft.

I am just surprised that the Red Sox have so many good prospects while staying in contention every year. Oh yeah its because the Whitesox don't know how to draft anyone. Feel free to Trade every body if you are seriously going to rebuild and go young. We need to get other teams prospects because everyone in our system sucks.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 11:23 AM) Ozzie Guillen needs a bench coach that can help him manage the game and know the opponent. Baines seemed to be good at this and even Raines but there have been more than one time where simple moves were flat wrong. Pagan's average from one side of the plate v. the other Relief pitchers that were brought in for the LH/RH where the pinch hitter that was brought in was a worse Sox match-up (see Toronto Saturday game) I think Cora is not a good bench coach and adds to the debacle of this season. Guillen does some things very well and should stick around. I completely agree with this. i think it would be great if he had a bench coach that managed in the Majors and knows the league. joey cora is his friend. I think Joey wants to manage one day and ozzie is trying to help him get there. just my opinion. Its not a bad thing but having a past manager might bring soem different perspective and keep ozzie managing at the same time. Many coached will get fired this year so there maybe some additional openings. I also think Razor Shines is terrible at 3b Coaching and should exit stage left at the end of the year or moved to first base. With a year like we are having its time for some new ideas and new blood both with coaches and players.