Texsox

The problem with the list IIRC is we'll never know what the other decision would have resulted in. Oz had a terrible year, perhaps his worst year as a manager. In my opinion, if Dunn and/or Rios play close to their career averages, this team is in the playoffs. Their performance was much more of a factor than Oz. I'm not saying Oz doesn't share in the blame. I'm not saying he's done a good job. I'm saying players make a much bigger difference than the manager. I'd rather make poor decisions with good players that great decisions with mediocre. Of course good decisions with good players wins championships.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:19 PM) Of course, but no one is likely to be dumb enough to say it in the way you attempted to satirize. Of course everyone is going to rip Ozzie, and Ozzie is going to go off on the team for months too. So I believe they will blame their performance on Oz, you disagree? They will say Oz was a problem, but it didn't affect their play?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:30 PM) If oz had been making better choices then those 2 would have been platoon players by June and it wouldn't have mattered. I wish we had the chance to know. And nice dodge of the question.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:21 PM) I could absolutely see that having been the case. Would you rather have Oz making better choices or Dunn and Rios playing at 80% of their career averages?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:17 PM) But he has certainly been "a" reason why. Just like you can say this team would be in the race if Dunn had 30 HR, I can say this team would be in the race if their manager hadn't gotten in the way. So fire Oz and this is a playoff team? Here is our difference. I believe Dunn's 30 HR and close to lifetime avg is way more important to the team than Oz making better decisions. If I had my choice I'll take Oz and an average Dunn year instead of the world's greatest manager and Dunn playing like a A prospect.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:05 PM) Now that one is too over the top to even be laugh worthy tex. You don't think players will start blaming the distractions of Oz as soon as he's gone? You don't think there will be comments about the clubhouse being in turmoil, etc? Or the fighting between Oz and KW and Walker? They will blame Oz for their terrible season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 07:08 PM) Now you're just being insulting to the rest of us. Well I have consistently stated that Ozzie is not why this team did not make the playoffs and you keep arguing with me.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 03:26 PM) With the number of guys who have left this org and ripped them over the past 10 years? I'd expect that the floodgates would open if Ozzie was traded. I was thinking more along the lines of "I can't hit because of Oz" . . .

Weird hot north wind the past couple days. Usually, like 360 days a year it is hot from the southeast. When it flips north it is cold and rainy.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Sep 4, 2011 -> 02:44 PM) His time has come. Just be at peace with it. I am, and agree he should be gone, but unlike a large number of people here, I don't believe that magically makes this a playoff team.

Bastrop State Park is one of my favorites. The Lost Pines Scout Camp is also in that neighborhood. I haven't heard if it is threatened.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:45 PM) And comparing people who are tired of Ozzie's act and years of failure to Al Davis firing a couple coaches every year isn't a loaded, heavily editorialized opinion? And that is out of context. I said that accountability often means firing someone and a revolving door, aka Al Davis, has not proven to be very successful. But keep creating paper tigers. Oz deserves some of the responsibility for the failures this season. However, the players are the ones that should carry the majority of the responsibility. I do not believe that a different manager would have this team in the playoffs. I believe it is time to break up the KW / Oz team so the organization can be more unified going forward.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:45 PM) And comparing people who are tired of Ozzie's act and years of failure to Al Davis firing a couple coaches every year isn't a loaded, heavily editorialized opinion? Won't you agree that extremes are bad? Like not holding players responsible for their poor performance while blaming the clubhouse attendant, travelling secretary, and Ozzie?

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:21 PM) The lack of accountability is rampant, not just in the sense that Tex is trying to talk down as wanting everyone fired. Players showing no effort regularly getting starts while other guys bust their asses and get benched anyway is the first GLARING example of it. Great point. I wasn't understanding you were meaning organization wide.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:15 PM) So, would you say that any extreme is bad? Such as, extreme loyalty and subservience to a manager with no good reason? Any extreme is bad. And how nice you loaded you post with a heavily editorialized opinion. What you really are doing is setting up something everyone will agree with and adding the opinion you are trying to argue in the second part. This way it looks like someone is agreeing with your opinion regarding subservience with no good reason when in truth they are agreeing that extremes are bad.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 03:51 PM) How many coaches would Al Davis fire if he had 1 playoff appearance in 6 years? We would have had seven managers between 2000 and 2010. Three or four GMs, a complete change over in scouting.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 03:56 PM) Tex, what accountability within the org do you think is happening We have no way of knowing. For all I know JR demanded certain line ups (although I really doubt it). My point is the only accountability we can see is usually someone being fired. For all we know KW has been removed from player evaluations, Oz has been removed from decisions regarding minor league call ups. Who knows?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 02:34 PM) So Jerry Lewis runs this MDA Telethon for 50 years, raises 2 billion dollars for the organization and they dump him the year they are forced to a 6 hour format, which would have been better for the crotchety old man anyway. Can you imagine the meeting in which the young suits in charge of MDA discuss getting rid of the out of touch Jerry Lewis and bring in some clown from American Idol? How in the world could anybody give a cent to that organization again? This is a perfect example of corporate suits doing something totally un American (of what America used to stand for). They get rid of the guy who most of America thought owned the damn telethon, the man who raised all that money, and bring in some no-name hosts that nobody in their right mind would watch. It was a tradition to turn on the TV for an hour or so on Labor Day weekend and watch Jerry Lewis say stupid things while raising money. I think MDA got tired of waiting on him to die. And fired him. What a f***ing disgrace, America. Jerry Lewis is from the era where you don't take shots at people, either. So I would doubt we'll see what I'd love to see. The old comic blast the s*** out out of the suits who in their "team meetings" probably discussed an nauseum how to dump this institution who made the telethon a s***load of money for 50 years. You'd be sending a big check if they passed to torch to Ozzie

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 12:30 PM) It is amazing to think he has been gone this long. Hopefully he found his fill of fat bottomed girls. In his will he basically gave everything to his longtime and long ago girlfriend.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 11:56 AM) Yep, the idea the Guillen has held this team back from a division championship is crazy. He should be fired because three consecutive years (with talent to win) without a playoff appearance in a major market dictates that. Fixed and I agree.

There are two kinds of accountability, within the organization which we cannot see, and accountability we can see (firing people). What most people seem to mean when they hear accountability is fire everyone after a losing season. The Al Davis revolving door of people doesn't seem to work, but either does riding a dead horse.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 03:18 PM) I guess we were destroyed or something, or so I was told I never believed it was all Ozzie's fault. I am sure though this off season will be plenty interesting LOL. Ozzie single handily destroyed a couple player's careers. With a different manager, Dunn would be an MVP candidate and Mark would be an ace. It is easier to blame one guy than a roster of players. I think it is time to break up the KW / OG team, but Oz isn't the reason Dunn and Rios had two of the most memorable years in modern baseball history. And if I was going to keep just one, KW is definitely the one I would keep. It would be silly to suggest that Oz had a great season as manager, along with everyone else, he was below expectations. Also, watch how fast players start blaming the guy who is let go.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 12:39 PM) Then next year I will devote my baseball energies to the Blue Jays and Nationals. Excellent choices. Enjoy.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 12:29 PM) So as a manager if I have 2 engineers. One of which forgot how to do his job. If I knowingly send the one to customers day in an day out and leave the other one on the engineering bench. Am I doing my job. I mean sure, the engineer is incompetent and probably needs to get better. However do you think my clients will care. Do you think they will call up and say well you know, its not your fault that he blew up our system. I blame the engineer. I would fire him right away. Are you suggesting Dunn should have been fired? You really used that example? Do you seriously think that is a good comparison?

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 12:10 PM) Who is more to blame. The veteran player hitting so bad that he is now in some historic conversations on futility. Or the manager who trotted him out there in the 4 hole and against lefties for the better part of the season. Most managers drop the player in the order to help him find himself and then work on match-ups. Guillen seemed to go against the grain and just throw him into the 4 hole into the wolves so to speak. Both share the blame, more to Dunn. And blame is maybe not the right word. Responsibility would be better. Who is more responsible for Dunn's performance? I believe Dunn.