witesoxfan

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 9, 2007 -> 12:50 AM) Shelby's glove at 2B is supposed to be pretty lousy, to boot. He's the kind of prospect that gets moved to LF and loses basically all vale away from the middle infield. they were playing him in CF earlier this year

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 9, 2007 -> 12:29 AM) Hurt or not hurt, Owens has got to go, or learn how to hit. or add some muscle

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 07:06 AM) You think an argument can be made for Wagner as the greatest of all-time? Most definitely. Name Saves ERA ERA+ WHIP K/9 BB/9 IP G Billy Wagner 337 2.36 182 1.00 12 3 729.0 679 Mariano Rivera 420 2.34 195 1.04 8 2.3 903.2 743 Trevor Hoffman 500 2.70 150 1.04 9.7 2.5 908.1 846 Mo holds the edge in ERA+ and longevity, but Wagner's K numbers are astounding. In 180 fewer innings, he has 160 more K's than Rivera, and nearly has more than Hoffman. On top of that, his control has never been bad, and he flat out doesn't allow hits. And throughout the duration of his career, his highest ERA with 30+ IP (which does not count his 2000 season where he was nearly killed by a comebacker) is 2.85 and his highest WHIP is 1.19. Not including his first year, the same thing is essentially true for Rivera (2.74; 1.19). Hoffman, throughout his career, has been slightly less dominant, never really putting up flat out gaudy ERAs and WHIPs, except 1998, but has been amazing for a very long period of time. Regardless, these are the 3 I think I have to rate as 1, 2, and 3, with Eckersley close behind them just because of his flat out dominance over a 4-5 year stretch - in '89 and '90 combined, he put up a K/BB of 18.3 and a BB/9 of .48. But he never had that dominance throughout the course of his career, because he was a starter for the first half of it, and he was an old pitcher when he was closing for the A's; hell, he was 35 when he put up his famed 0.61 ERA in 1990. And, seeing as how Eckersley really revolutionized the closer position as we know it today, it doesn't seem quite right to compare him and the others of today to those in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s. So, I won't.

Just as 2005 was largely due to KW, but wouldn't have occurred without Ozzie, 2007 is bad largely due to KW, but I think they'd be better without Ozzie. i fooked it up, seeing as how it said 2005 wouldnt have occurred with Ozzie; that would be called a lie

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jun 8, 2007 -> 08:18 AM) That would be almost an intrigueing lineup but you got to believe we could do better than Terrero in RF. I dont have a list of f/a's but shouldnt be too hard to find a guy better than Terrero. Now that could change if Terrero gets some playing time this season enough to warrant a starting gig next year. If there was some actual dependable power in the lineup outside of Thome, Konerko, and maybe Pierzynski, it'd be interesting. As is, you're looking at a lineup with the potential to have 4 or maybe 5 starting players put up OPS's of under .700. Add to it that the team might not slug .400 as a team, and I think I'd rather sign Cecil Fielder and put him at 2B than go out there with that lineup. I see that lineup struggling to put up 700 runs.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 10:48 PM) How is Pods lazy? Sucks and has a leg like Barbaro, but I have heard nothing wrong with his work ethic. And he doesn't hot dog on a high fly ball that hits the fence and then gets thrown out at second. From everything I ever heard, Carlos Lee was a very hard worker. He just so happened to suck defensively and have a tendency to stare at his homers, which sometimes didn't leave the park. So, to put it simply, I've heard nothing wrong with Lee's work ethic either.

atleast he has a high ceiling or somethin or somethin

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 07:08 AM) That's a 6.00 ERA and it sucks. He threw so many pitches he had to be lifted. At $12.5 million its not crazy to expect more. Excepting this as not a bad game from him and looking at his strikeouts is something teams have been doing the last 4 seasons with him. The object of the game is to win. Its nice to see DJ question his concentration last night. Where's the criticism for Buehrle after his garbage performance against the Yankees then? Do you not realize that Buehrle has not pitched leaps and bounds above Vazquez this year, but rather has put up roughly the exact same year that Vazquez has thus far? 3.99 ERA to 4.13 ERA, 1.10 WHIP to 1.17 WHIP, and MORE homers allowed per 9 than Vazquez. You seem to be holding a grudge against Vazquez, rather than providing actual criticism. Why not criticize Jose Contreras? Or does his outing not count because the White Sox made an error? And give me a f***ing break, the Yankees are averaging about 5 and a half runs a game, holding them to 4 over 6 is an average outing. They have one of the best offenses in the league. You cant expect to hold them to 0 runs, even if you're Johan Santana. QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 12:02 PM) He wasn't even .500. I also doubt it was a coincidence he picked it up as soon as the White Sox postseason chances went to approximately 0. You wouldn't be chance be talking about his 3.86 ERA in his last 12 starts would you? Were the Sox done by July 31st? And, as a matter of fact, his worst two outings from August 1 on were AFTER the White Sox were eliminated. I'm sure you knew that though. Stop holding a f***ing grudge against Javier Vazquez, because that's what it is. He can't help that KW made a horrific trade, all he can do is pitch his ass off, and thus far, he's been the White Sox 3rd best starter this season. That's about what he's being paid to do.

sweet, sounds like a reliever

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 01:42 AM) He's going to finish his career with well over 500 saves and I have doubts as to if his record is ever caught with the way Rivera is starting to look. Just an incredible feat IMO. A K/BB of 5, K/9 of 9, and a WHIP of 1.13? And since April ended, or his last 13 appearances, an ERA 1.42, WHIP of .71, K/9 of just under 9, and K/BB of 12? I think he's starting to look just fine, but maybe that's just me looking too deeply into the numbers here. I kinda doubt that though. Regardless of whether he retires with record or not, he will likely be the greatest closer of all time, with perhaps an argument for Hoffman and Billy Wagner.

fire Darin Erstad

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:05 PM) But did you see all the strikeouts Javy Vazquez was able to accumulate? QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:06 PM) It's funny to see posters b**** for minor leaguers to have high K numbers and high speed gun readings, yet when we get to the major league level they bomb out. See Vazquez and the bullpen. Last I checked, Javy had to throw a shutout to win tonight, yet you two are putting any blame on him at all? Just brilliant. He didn't have a good outing, but 4 runs allowed in 6 innings against the 4th best offense and perhaps the most talented lineup in baseball isn't a bad days work. Rip the deal all you want to, but mentioning Vazquez's name in a negative light and ripping him at all in this thread is an absolute joke. And when posters b**** for minor leaguers like that, they are b****ing for Jake Peavy or Jeremy Bonderman or even Matt friggin Garza. Pitchers with Buehrle and Garland's stuff can never dominate over the course of a year, but they can pitch well. Pitchers with Contreras's stuff in 2005 and Vazquez now and maybe Gio have that chance. No one in AAA brings that, and there might be like 5 pitchers in the entire organization that bring that as a starter, and that's a big if. Right now, this is about organizational ineptitude, as KW seems to want power arms that get a ton of strikeouts and Cooper is a pitching coach that tells his pitchers to pitch to contact. You really can't have it both ways. This organization needs to get on the same page up and down.

I really wish I lived within range of Rongey, it would be interesting to hear his take on several other issues.

QUOTE(Shadows @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:00 PM) Well from Trent Greens mouth himself, he knows the system I refuse to believe the words of a player drafted in the 8th round.

QUOTE(Shadows @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 12:19 PM) Trent Green knows the offense, were running the same system he and Cam ran when they were both in Washington.. Green should be solid for us People don't forget things they read 9 years ago at all. And the game hasn't changed either. just sayin

I recall it being a pretty big deal when Shaun Livingston couldn't bench 185, and he was like a 160 pound PG. If Durant wants to be anything more than a SF, that needs to increase drastically. It will, of course, just really stating the obvious.

QUOTE(The Critic @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 08:16 PM) I wouldn't buy a magazine full of pictures of the women I'd "hit if I got the chance". If that were the case, I'd be buying an encyclopedia

QUOTE(briguy27 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 03:03 PM) how about this lineup for 2008 ichiro CF eckstein 2B thome DH konerko 1B pierzynski C vizquel SS fields 3B sweeney LF terrero RF is that you Ozzie?

I would say mine is the best, but then I'd get arrested.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 09:34 PM) Maybe it's hindsight for you, but I wanted him moved this past offseason, but not for junk like Ervin Santana and Chone Figgins. I doubt you could have gotten even that. 3B was not a high priority this offseason, and Crede's a middle of the pack 3Bman, and maybe top 10 all around, but I doubt even that. Really, the only teams I can think of that were looking for 3Bman were Anaheim, Philadelphia, Tampa Bay, San Diego, and San Francisco, and all pretty much settled for what they were able to get; the demand was not that great, and the Sox would have been left with a disappointing package. Add to it that I really doubt Fields would have done much better than Crede did in the first 2 months of this year (with the possibility of putting up a worse April, but also likely a better May), and it just didn't make sense, not even now. No, the Sox should not have traded Crede in the offseason, even in hindsight. It's just a situation that was never going to work out. QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 01:27 AM) Personally, I'd rather have some contribute positively on both sides of the ball, rather than on only one side of the ball... but hey, that's just me. I bet Juan Uribe puts up a higher OPS over the next 3 years than does Erick Aybar. And I also bet he's rated better defensively overall, considering all stats and types of information. Considering his IsoSLG this year is .023, and it was .130 in the PCL last year, and that he's never proven to be an effective base stealer at any minor league level, and that he, admittedly, does not walk, what's the upside? Hell, he 29 of his 32 hits this season have been singles. He sounds more like a grinder than anything else. I mean, plain and simply, he's probably going to have to hit .300 to put up an OPS around .720. If Juan Uribe hits .250, he's got .725 in the bag, and anything above that is money in the bag.

This move was bound to happen eventually, no?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 12:58 AM) Actually it's 2 seeing eye singles. well I wanted to make damn sure of it .2397 was too close for comfort

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 12:18 AM) Juan Uribe deserves kudos for his defense, but id love to have some speed out of the SS position. Either that or hit better than .240 You mean like Juan Uribe in 2 of his 3 years in a White Sox uniform? and God forbid he hit .235; that, in case you are unaware, is 3 seeing eye singles away from being over .240.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 07:22 PM) Okay, but we also had Grilli, Cotts, Garland, Guerrier, Majewski, Rauch, Scott Eyre, Joe Valentine, Rocky Biddle, Frank Francisco, Josh Rupe, Kip Wells, Josh Fogg...it's not as if we HAVEN'T produced or nurtured any pitchers that had major league impacts, although most have been disappointing with the Sox. Kip Wells is one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball right now, Josh Fogg is the definition of mediocrity, Rocky Biddle hasn't been heard from since like 2004 or 2005, Joe Valentine's thrown 45.2 innings in the majors to the tune of a 6.70 ERA, Josh Rupe hasn't thrown 40 innings in the majors, Francisco wasn't in the White Sox organization a calendar year, and Grilli was a rule 5 pick by the White Sox and was gone by 2005; those others you have mentioned have all been solid. I've said elsewhere on this board before, the White Sox are pretty solid at developing relievers, and I think that goes without question. That's relievers, which, while important, play little role in the development of a major league team. The last minor league hitter the White Sox developed was Crede or Rowand, whoever you consider it to be, and that's not really much to be proud of.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 02:48 PM) You're right, it was hyperbole -- would it be better if I just restricted it to positional prospects? Honestly, I'd trade Anderson, Sweeney, Fields, Cunningham, and Getz(?) for Pie. That would, I think, be the Sox top 5 position prospects. Let's hope the Sox draft well this year. well then, to use an oft-used phrase here, I'm glad you're not GM