witesoxfan

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ May 16, 2007 -> 09:59 PM) Dan, couldn't disagree with you more. Ryan may have had a better fastball, but he is nowhere near the pitcher that Clemens is/was. when was the last time Roger Clemens threw someone into a headlock and beat the piss out of them? yeah, thats what I thought

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ May 16, 2007 -> 03:56 PM) "Value be damned" Great words to live by when running a professional organization. It is exactly that sort of mentality that cripples the future of an organization--incidentally, it is exactly that same mentality which brought G. Gonzalez back to the White Sox organization (sacrificing a better yield for either a) a player the organization over-values or b ) a salary dump) No, it's getting rid of a pitcher who is about to fall off drastically. It's not a philosophy you take in every move you ever make, and it shouldn't have been taken in the Garcia trade. In this case, it really should be, because I just don't see how taking Contreras over Garland, regardless of the return you can get back, is a worthwhile move in either the short or the long. Tell me, are you going to be able to get 3 top prospects or 4 valuable commodities for Garland, ala Hirsh, Buchholz, Taveras, and Pence? If not, then trading Garland doesn't make sense, because you're not getting enough value back to justify trading him.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ May 16, 2007 -> 03:40 PM) Sure, on X-Box. This is the real-world, whereby we need to formulate projections on tangible, real-world baseball realities. Moving Contreras results in a net loss...of this much, I assure you. Moving Garland, on the other hand, (something Williams has attempted to do in two consecutive off-seasons) would most assuredly result in valuable pieces of the big-picture puzzle. Which player would you rather have on your team? Yes, that's what I thought. Now, why would any professional, paid, real-world general manager feel any different? [This is exactly the line of thinking I never really understand when it comes to Soxtalk proposed roster moves] I acknowledged that you end up with a net loss by trading Contreras, and I still make the move over trading Garland. If I'm a GM, I'm not looking to get a steal, I'm looking to make the team better; if I keep Contreras over Garland, the team is going to be worse. I'm also sure if Contreras's velocity remains about where it's at, even if that's 88-91, he'll be a rather valuable commodity. He's a league average pitcher with 2 years left on his contract below market value. Even as a fossil, he's got quite a bit of value and should net a top prospect. You are building for the future here - why would you deal a 28 year old pitcher and keep a 40 year old? Value be damned, it doesn't make sense.

danks

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ May 14, 2007 -> 10:49 PM) remember when I kept getting laughed at when I was calling Placido Polanco the solution to our problems at 2B back in '04. Oh how times change. you mean you wouldn't rather have Orlando Cabrera at $7 mill a year? QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ May 15, 2007 -> 02:47 PM) I normally pay no mind to these sorts of threads, but, it's an off-day of sorts and I'll play along. Assessing the team as it is currently construed, I think a 2008 roster including the following players is realistic given the White Sox front office's spending tendencies and general baseball philosophies. At this point, I would also add that the following roster resembles a roster I would like to see take the field in 2008. C-Pierzynski C-Toby Hall 1B-Paul Konerko DH/1B-Jim Thome 2B-Tadahito Iguchi SS-Juan Uribe SS/2B-Alex Cintron 3B-Josh Fields 3B-Pablo Ozuna LF-Ryan Sweeney CF-Darin Erstad RF-Ichiro Suzuki OF/Utl- OF/Utl- SP-Mark Buehlre SP-Jose Contreras SP-Javier Vazquez SP-John Danks SP-Open Competition (Masset, Sisco, Gonzalez, Broadway, etc.)/Cheap Free Agent Signing CP-Bobby Jenks RP-Mike MacDougal RP-Matt Thornton RP-Matt Sisco RP-David Aardsma RP-Nick Masset ------------------------------------- So, that assumes Jon Garland, Joe Crede, and Jermaine Dye will not be a part of the 2008 roster--the return on both the Garland and Crede moves are irrelevant for the purposes of this exercise. Some of the logic used to come to those conclusions: -Williams re-signs Buehrle to a historic White Sox pitching contract and Jon Garland and the $11M contract he possess becomes a financial burden and has to be moved off the books. -Jermaine Dye is not a part of this franchise beyond the 2007 season, this is something I think we can all agree with. Ichiro, along with Buehrle, is the big off-season splash and is an essential piece of the puzzle (proven everyday RF and lead-off hitter). -Crede, like Garland, is moved to make room for Fields and rid the White Sox of his contract--I wish this team could have a $170M payroll, but that is just not going to happen. -Mackowiak moved in the off-season for spare parts or minor league talent--his salary becomes a problem given the Ichiro and Buehrle signings. -Iguchi, the starting 2B, was had on the cheap following a disappointing season and is immediately penciled in at the two-hole following Ichiro. If any of the payroll aficionados could estimate the payroll for the aforementioned roster it would be greatly appreciated. What I think you will find is that this conjectured roster and its correlating payroll will be strikingly similar to the payroll of 2007 and therefore more realistic than you might think. Do I think that is a perfect lineup or even a probable lineup? No. But, I think it is something you might see as the White Sox once again find themselves in limbo between a complete rebuilding and a veteran/win-now roster. It's not a lineup I particularly like, but I can live with it; it'll be modest production compared to lineups of years past, but it will provide a "threat," if you want to use that word, at every spot in the lineup. I've always felt that to be a very valuable part of lineups, and, as bad as the 05 offense was, helped them be able to produce at a somewhat consistent rate. However, my only huge beef is trading Garland. Why would you trade a pitcher in his prime over a pitcher in Contreras who is aging before our eyes? Value be damned in this situation, the White Sox almost assuredly need to get out of the Contreras contract following this season. I love Jose for what he's done, but he's mediocre and inconsistent at this point, and Garland's durability alone will make him worth that $11 mill he's going to be making without considering the fact that he's the better pitcher at this point. You get rid of Contreras 10 times before you even think of trading Garland. I'd also get rid of Cintron and bring up Andy Gonzalez to take over his role, but that's really just a miniscule point.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ May 16, 2007 -> 12:05 PM) Yeah, you're probably right. He was just rambling on in a language he doesn't fully understand. Brandon McCarthy isn't Cy Young

I want the offense dammit, because the pitching was good until June last year too. If the pitching keeps this up all year, I guess I have no choice but to take the pitching. People really seemed to have forgotten that the pitching, aside from Garland, was very, very good last year in the first two months of the season. Then Contreras got hurt and Garcia and Vazquez started getting lit up. Come July, Buehrle had joined the act, and Garland was the only consistent starter of the bunch. So yeah, give me the offense until the pitching proves it can put up an ERA of 4.00 throughout the course of the season.

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 13, 2007 -> 10:31 PM) Well, Javy does have the stuff to be a no. 1 or 2.......... Yeah I wasn't preaching that all offseason

QUOTE(RME JICO @ May 13, 2007 -> 11:41 AM) True, for what he will be paid and all the media attention. Hell, Rotoworld says due to his good peripherals he is a legit #1 or #2. That is hard to see. All he has is a lot of strikeouts, but there are a ton of reasons why he is getting them (new to league, lack of scouting report, first time thru the league, etc). Well, according to that logic, Javy Vazquez is a legit 1 or 2 than too. Is anyone going to agree with that statement? not killing the messenger, just so you know

QUOTE(danman31 @ May 12, 2007 -> 04:08 AM) Yeah Faustino is the s***. As for Broadway I really like him for reasons I can barely describe. I think he will be a respectable to solid Major League starter. Seems pretty comparable to John Maine, except Maine strikes people out at a better rate

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ May 12, 2007 -> 11:16 PM) I can't think of anyone at AAA right now who I think will contribute much. Not even Fields. Are you talking both hitters and pitchers here or just hitters?

QUOTE(SnB @ May 13, 2007 -> 07:07 PM) i start work tuesday! that and god moving back sucks. so.friggin.tired.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ May 13, 2007 -> 08:47 PM) 1986 Chicago White Sox 644 runs scored, .247 AVG (last in both categories for AL) 1987 Chicago White Sox 748 runs scored, .258 AVG 1988 Chicago White Sox 631 runs scored, .244 AVG (13th in both categories) I looked back and can't believe our offense is worse than the teams I grew up with...those were bleak times for Sox fans, when we last in attendance. It's not worse than those offenses. It may be statistically worse less than one quarter of the way through the season, but it's not worse.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ May 11, 2007 -> 12:00 AM) Nah, there's people that can vouch that I'm about as athletically ungifted as one could imagine. I think someone's being a bit modest or forgetful of their maddskillz on the basketball court.

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 10, 2007 -> 07:49 PM) Sweeney everyday in LF >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mack/Ozuna + Pods It really isn't even close right now. It's closer than that and closer than you think, because it's entirely possible Rob Mackowiak would put up better numbers over the course of the year than Ryan Sweeney. However, I agree with the thought because he'd provides an adequate bat at the bottom of the order, above average range and arm for a LFer (he really should be playing RF), and he's going to be starting next year so this experience at the MLB level and getting acclimated to some pitchers within the division and league will be a huge bonus for him long-term (and by long-term, I'm pretty sure I mean just next year).

QUOTE(Kalapse @ May 10, 2007 -> 09:49 PM) Well this thread just went in an incredibly boring and played out direction. Why do you do these things Wite?

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 10, 2007 -> 06:18 PM) I think our Rotation has surpassed Minnesota as the best rotation in the Central so far in this early season. Before last nights game, the Sox were behind the Twins like 4-5 place with a difference of ERA at about .10, but after these past two games, I am fairly certain that they have pretty much switched places. Not to be a downer, but the team ERA after May last year was 4.06, and that's with Garland putting up an ERA of 6.25 before June. You including Jon pitching very well this year, and it's easy to see why the pitching staff has been good. I want to see if they keep it up through June, and if they do, they'll have my full confidence. QUOTE(RockRaines @ May 10, 2007 -> 06:25 PM) Hes one of the top producing leadoff hitters in the AL right now. Im not sure that says "4th OF'er" to anyone. Batting leadoff: .328 .375 5 BB 4k 67 at bats. you think he's going to hit .330 all year? or do you think he will regress to his career averages a bit?

well its obvious why they hit him, Juan Gonzalez is playing, he's like 36 and on roids

group four

QUOTE(danman31 @ May 10, 2007 -> 02:34 PM) Boom! Though I still don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with Sweeney's .259 average. He looked outstanding at the plate. He's not generating much power yet at all, and that's why his average is .259, but he's working the count and putting good swings on the ball right now. Add to it that he's been playing good defensively and he's actually running out groundballs, which I'm not sure I've seen from anyone on the roster other than Ozuna and Erstad, and he'd be my starting LFer for the remainder of the year, unless of course a big upgrade comes along. Anyways, I wasn't able to catch the game, what with a paper to write and moving day, but it appears Contreras pitched pretty much like the man. The Twins offense isn't really that good right now, which is a slight detractor, but taking a series in Minnesota is huge, and really, with a good Iguchi throw/call in our favor/MacDougal actually being able to get out Nick f'ing Punto, the Sox sweep. I just don't know how I should feel about this team, so I'm just going to withhold judgment for about another month or so. That seems like the best course of action. And Erstad's growing on me. He'd be the perfect 4th OFer, and I still don't want him starting, but he's the team's best option right now, and he appears to be playing with a bit of a chip on his shoulder. Hopefully he keeps producing like he has been, and if he does, I hope he stays healthy.

predicting it comes out in June

QUOTE(RME JICO @ May 10, 2007 -> 07:53 AM) 6 yrs for $54 million? Are you kidding? Zito got 7/$126. Buehrle is going to at least get $12 million a year. atleast $14, unless he absolutely blows balls. Jason Marquis got $7 mill this offseason for putting up an ERA of over 6 last year in the NL in the worst division in baseball. How is Buehrle going to get 7 figures a year with more than 100 career wins, a no hitter, and an ERA that will almost certainly end up below 5 this year in the toughest division in baseball? I honestly see no less than 5/$70, and I think that may be at the low end of what he can get. If he signs for less, color me whatever the hell color you want, because I will be in shock.

QUOTE(Brian @ May 10, 2007 -> 07:53 AM) Crap, I missed the game. What happened? Morneau hit 4 homers off of Contreras in the first inning

QUOTE(YASNY @ May 10, 2007 -> 07:53 AM) Really? I was under the impression Erstad has been doing quite well since being moved to the leadoff spot. yeah he has been. Tony was talking about the fact that Podsednik should be nowhere near the starting lineup, "healthy" or not.

QUOTE(AWhiteSoxinNJ @ May 10, 2007 -> 05:45 AM) Being the man in AAA when Thome comes back as per Ozzie. I really don't see how the Sox can legitamately justify it if he keeps looking like he has at the plate over the past week or so.