caulfield12

MLB Daily Dish already had their "GM Ratings" with Hahn 29th or whatever and had Ventura as one of the six obvious coaches on the hot seat. Every single article about managers from now until the day he is notified of his fate will mention Robin's name. Quite a few are speculating on Scioscia as well.

Wait, the Score hired a Brazilian broadcaster? Halomes? I presume it's still Lawrence Holmes...NBA insight extraordinaire. Yet another blown save for the White Sox bullpen. Broken record. Glad I didn't change my GoT reference below...still appropriate.

Let's just put it this way. What have we seen out of Fulmer this year in the majors that should make us believe he'll be a future cog in the rotation? Dick Allen says Burdi will end up in the mid to low 90s at the end of games as a starter, potentially...ignoring that guys such as Sale and Rodon routinely throw 96-98 mph late into games when they really need to. But is Fulmer even capable of sustaining 92-93 mph for more than 3-4 innings with that high effort delivery? Whenever I watched him, I was hoping he would be the DL the next day and there would be some minor physical reason as the explanation for how he went the baddest NCAA pitcher to Tyler Danish in 12 months.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:52 AM) What would the White Sox record be with the "proper" manager? There may be no need for a rebuild. Hard to say. Since we're flailing away under .500 yet again, with a future HoF...we need to poach Mike Scioscia away from the Angels or extend Ventura's contract another 2-3 years. After all, he's the one who mentored Maddon and is dearly in need of a change of scenery...and the White Sox are dearly in need of a real general, not one who fills out a Myers Briggs survey and impresses KW. Really, it makes perfect financial sense. That, some duct tape and baling wire buys the Sox another offseason before the fans completely turn on the organization. Instead of the next Bonifacio or Duke, it's much easier to sell the stabilizing influence of Scioscia. Plus those two managers in the same town!

Swisher and Javy weren't past their prime vets or close to future Hall of Famers, either...

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:09 AM) These guys aren't 12 year old kids. Do you really think a manager has that much influence over the way a guy whose been playing baseball for a minimum of 15 up to 30+ years? Come on. The difference between the best managers in the game and the worst is maybe a few wins a year. And besides, how the hell do you know what goes on in the locker room? For all you know Ventura could be preaching the kinds of things you're saying day in and day out. Are you honestly advocating benching a guy like Adam Eaton because he doesn't run out one ground ball? So Hahn and KW will/should fall on their own swords to preserve Ventura's managerial position? Great. At least it would be a direction of some sort.

That's great advice from a future Hall of Famer... Twenty years from now, and certainly no later than twenty-five, he will invariably, no, inevitably, join the ranks of Leyland, LaRussa, Cox and Torre.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:05 AM) Sox traded Santiago, a guy you valued as a top of the rotation starter who turned out to not be a top of the rotation starter for Adam Eaton, a guy who might put up a 6.0 WAR this year. Outstanding trade. Post of the Year. Give Hahn and KW lifetime extensions. Between this year's draft and the Sale/Q contracts and 2005, thry're set for at least another 3-5 more years before you give up defending them. You've already started to tip in that direction this year in recent months (along with a number of mods), but just enjoy playing devil's advocate too much. You're actually better off attacking Cooper and wondering where all the anti-Steverson outrage is...probably something to do with him being invisible AND not a former Sox player and not involved in the Guillen/KW/Coop circus/spy ring. But...because you're anti-Balta too, you're now suddenly defending the Sox recent history of developing pitchers. Fun stuff.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 07:59 AM) No its not. But most run hard to first. Not like it used to be with the team when not many people complained. Back in the mid 00s, I read an article quoting a scout how they couldn't get White Sox players times to 1B because no one busted it down the line. For the most part they do now, but again, you see that all around baseball. If you are hanging that on a manager, you are going to have a hard time finding a guy to manage your team. Dye, Thome, AJ, Konerko, Everett, Lee, Thomas, Crede.....all virtual speed demons. They often hit the ball over the fence, so no need to run, actually.

The Yankees did what any team in their position at that time with in-demand veterans would have done. It was long overdue, and turned them into thev#3 farm system in baseball, to go along with their virtually unlimited financial resources. Good position for them by 2018.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) It's just funny you don't mention Hector anymore with his 4.80 ERA and his well over 5.00 FIP, or Finnegan who is in the same boat, and even the Reds are thinking back to the bullpen.. If the White Sox traded away Santiago and the equivalent of Finnegan, let's say Fulmer...and actually got anywhere close to the playoffs, that would be great. As long as one team or GM buys into the hype, you have a trade partner. Besides, Cueto was about as good as Hector Santiago with the exception of two key post-season starts that rescued his legacy from terrible disappointment to....still not invited to the White House. Not to mention the Cubs, Cardinals and Pirates all can hit a little bit.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:44 AM) But you have told us many times Hector Santiago's floor was a #3 starter. And you said Danny Duffy wasn't very good at all and Ubaldo Jimenez was the prize of the free agent class a couple of years ago. Then you'll come back with something about Puig, and around and around it will go. Have at it. Whenever you make those comments, these pitchers invariably throw multiple shutouts against the Sox. Besides, going by your philosophy, pitching to a 10-7 record on two of the worst teams in the American League, he'd be 13-5 with the White Sox and contending for a Cy Young. He's a valuable and MUCH cheaper version of our innings eater, James Shields. At any rate, compare his 10-7 with Rodon's record. Isn't he our #3?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:08 AM) It's time to start going after the bolded, because I think there's now a strong case that this organization is resting on reputation alone in terms of developing pitchers. Go back 5 years, and they developed 2 very good starting pitchers. They deserve all the credit for that in the world, those 2 guys are strong, but they're literally carrying this staff. They haven't developed a successful, mid to top of the rotation starter in 5 years. Had it not been for the contract Chris Sale signed he would be a free agent at the end of this year. They have a solid rotation because of one of a handful of positive things Rick Hahn did for this franchise - locking those 2 starters up early. Overall though the picture at the big league level is bleak. The Sox have a slightly better team ERA than Detroit, but Detroit has a slightly higher team fWAR from their staff. Cleveland has a significantly better team ERA than the White Sox. The White Sox's supposed plan was to develop enough pitching to have that carry them, right? Well 3rd best staff in the division doesn't get you there. And that's not without throwing substantial resources at the staff. They signed a big money closer. They took on payroll in adding a pitcher this year. And they have invested 2 top-10 picks in their rotation the last 3 years. Look deeper and you'll get even more concerned. They clearly had no idea where Rodon or Fulmer were going to be this year and overestimated how ready both of them were. They could still turn things around, both are young, but so far these guys are mediocre starters with good fastballs that the White Sox haven't developed as fast as they insisted they could. They made decisions this year expecting both would be strong contributors and they were clearly wrong. Someone in this organization that is supposed to know pitching told Rick Hahn that James Shields was fixable or had something left. They spent big money on Robertson and he's underwhelmed. They also have little to no depth in their starters. Take a look at the guy going last night. There isn't much in the pipeline right now that can step in when someone goes on the DL or someone struggles, other than a replacement-level/waiver wire acquisition. There is no one about ready to break in from AAA. What else have they developed over the past 5 years? Maybe you give them credit for guys they traded away, Santiago Bassitt and Montas, but those guys have had a lot of work done by other organizations too. If pitching is supposed to be the thing they're trading away to build up the rest of their roster, they have a pretty weak roster and they still have pitching needs. This could turn around next year. There's talent in Rodon and Fulmer, James Shields could find his previous self, and Hansen could darn well be the next Scherzer. The investment they've put into finding pitching could pay off. But as of right now, this is a team that hasn't developed a mid-rotation starter or back of the bullpen pitcher in 5 years. This is a team where we're not supposed to question their pitching development, but they have major needs of starting pitching and relief pitching. They're separated from having the worst rotation in their division not by what they've developed, but by contracts that guys signed. They're resting on reputation right now. Don't forget Guerra, Devenski, Harrell...Montas is one of the few legit success stories, then you really have to go back to Hudson and relievers like Reed and Santos prior to that. Let's wait to see how long Nate Jones holds up as closer. Months, rather than years...is the likely outcome, not that it will matter much for a mediocre team anyway.

Should have gone with Sveum or Sabo, haha. Steve Sax or Cory Snyder. Ellis Burks was of the few veterans who outperformed expectations.

Julio Franco? Steve Carlton?

QUOTE (Wanne @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 09:03 PM) yeah...but it seems that Eaton really didn't get to the peak of his value than this year. Nobody really knew who was gonna show up. This version of Adam Eaton is an All-Star and he just seems to get better and better. And like a broken record...unless you get an obscene haul for Sale or Q...you don't trade them. Trading Eaton at any time is a ridiculous thought... Unless you can find another GM who values him (appropriately) as a Top 8-10 MLB outfielder. How likely is he to repeat that (he's been a little bit up and down, year to year, in his career and within seasons)? Is he MORE likely to repeat that performance as long as he remains in RF, his most comfortable position? Otoh, he's clearly their most valuable overall performer this season. You take him away, that leaves Cabrera and Frazier (both gone after next year) and Abreu. Other than that, the only remaining player you can project as being above average (at least WAR-wise, at his position) is undoubtedly Tim Anderson.

Robertson has somehow managed to more than double his walk ratio from last year... Fwiw, the first EIGHT (8) hitters in the CLE lineup tonight had 800+ OPS figures on the season. The White Sox have ONE (Justin Morneau), unless you include Omar Narvaez.

Well, at least Eaton, Q and Sale give you three huge assets to choose from in making an offseason trade...

Tim Anderson: Walk/OBP Machine Nice to see him trending back into the low 700's for OPS. 750 might be a realistic expectation if he can just up his walk total to 5% or so, hopefully 7.5% but that might be dreaming for now.

What did Abreu do (or not do) now? Does he still have negative overall statistical value with this recent "hot streak"?

The irony, and Dick Allen always brought this up (incessantly), is how much the "lift and pull" supposed strategy of Greg Walker resulted in inconsistent results (lots of blowouts either way, lots of close losses), but at least the offenses under his "regime" were average or even above average. Steverson almost floats below the radar...and he even has an assistant coach, to boot. Walker didn't get Fletcher until the very end. (Or maybe I'm confusing that with what the Braves did.) Of course, you can also argue that having AJ, Dye, Crede, Thome, Konerko, Quentin...the results for Walker SHOULD have been much better, comparatively.

2. Robin Ventura, Chicago White Sox The fact that Ventura was kept on to manage in 2016 was puzzling. Chicago was 85-77 in his first year, but it did not finish better than 76-86 in the subsequent three seasons. This year, it’s been more of the same. The White Sox sit at 56-61 and are well out of playoff position. This is despite the fact that the Sox were one of baseball’s best teams in the early going, starting the year 23-10. The South Siders also had a busy offseason, landing guys like Brett Lawrie and Todd Frazier. Chicago was built to contend this year, but that simply has not happened. As if all of that wasn’t enough, that clubhouse seems chaotic from the outside looking in. Whether it was the Adam LaRoche saga in spring training or Chris Sale taking a knife to the team’s 1976 jerseys, the stories coming out of this team’s clubhouse have been bizarre. That reflects on the manager. Granted, much of that may be as much of a reflection on the front office as it is on Ventura, but the front office will not fire itself. Ventura won’t be so lucky. Now, none of that is to say that (Chip) Hale should be blamed for the poor record. But this situation is very much like the one in Chicago with the White Sox. Dave Stewart and Tony LaRussa aren’t likely to fire themselves for the bad personnel decisions they made. Blaming the manager is the more likely play. With that in mind, the odds certainly aren’t great for Hale to keep his job in 2017. Of course, Hale is ONLY in his SECOND year on the job. https://www.yahoo.com/sports/m/f083e8a7-9b2...-danger-of.html

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 04:09 PM) JR is definitely cheap. Isn't Abreu our biggest contract ever? It was only 68 mill. That's A's, Indians, Pirates, and Royals territory. Won't get it done going forward and people are just going to collectively start tuning this teaming if it does. Front office is delusional. Gordon was $72 million guaranteed, and Ian Kennedy another $70 million. So that's two bigger than Abreu out of the smallest local t.v. market in MLB.

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2016/8/16/1250...urprise-rebuild This would be perfect for JR to see...granted, it probably wouldn't change his "all in" nonsensical plan one bit. But here it was the White Sox should have done, and we're going to be paying the price eventually for not doing so if any of our key assets like Sale/Q/Rodon go down to significant injuries. Rebuilding teams, in general, got some surprisingly high marks in this poll (MLB Daily Dish Confidence Survey). The Brewers, Yankees, Phillies, and Braves all also finished with a composite score higher than 4.0. That said, the Reds, Twins, Rays, and Athletics finished near the bottom. And it’s amazing that the response from Padres fans has been this swift and this positive after falling on their faces so recently. Maybe Padres fans are simply smart enough to see the direction the club is going and are eager to jump on the bandwagon now. Perhaps there’s an innate optimism that comes from living in such a beautiful climate and watching games in an amazing ballpark. Or maybe the Padres are simply better at communicating with their fans about their expectations and how those moves fit into the team’s rebuild. Whatever the reason, it will be interesting to see what happens when some of these prospects inevitably hit bumps in the road and don’t develop as expected. Will that optimism survive, or will those fans (and Preller’s bosses) be patient enough to let him see this through.

Did he qualify for a pension already?