caulfield12

15 years ago, more than half of the White Sox wanted him to be the White Sox GM. Probably 2/3rd's. Here we are today, 18 months ago, he was trying to keep the Northern League (independent/non-affiliated) baseball league afloat. Suffice it to say, he didn't become a HoF GM/Executive. When I wrote the "myth," I meant it only in the sense that he was clearly among the best negotiators in baseball, and that somehow that was the most important skill to have in the "tool box" of an MLB GM. Clearly, there are other GM's that are equally adept or can allocate financial resources just as, if not more, efficiently. So, once again, what ELSE IS HE GOOD AT? That's what I really wanted to get at...that even if he's among the Top 5-10 or whatever negotiators in MLB, can we list one category that's related to being a GM that he would be considered in the Top 10-15 (upper half) even of major league GM's? There are no "official" categories, obviously, or OPS/WAR/Pythagorean numbers for GM'ing. "Chris was always the great negotiator," said Marc, a bariatric surgeon in South Carolina who served as an Air Force surgeon in Iraq. "He could talk his way in or out of anything since he was 6 years old." It's a skill that served him well at the University of Massachusetts, where Antonetti piggybacked a business degree from Georgetown with a master's in sports management. UMass law professor Glenn Wong was still handling salary arbitration cases for the Boston Red Sox at the time. He would hire his top two or three students to help research and prepare cases. Antonetti wasn't one of them. So he paid Wong a visit, offering to do the work for free. "It's not too often that kids come in and argue their case," said Wong, who relented. Salary arbitration cases, heard to decide disputes over the fair value of a player still under contract, are based on statistical comparisons. Antonetti would offer suggestions on which data to use and how to use it, and in a manner that didn't offend his colleagues. "As soon as I took him on," Wong said, "I saw immediately how good he was and how interested he was in that work." http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2...10/post_74.html

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-m...?ex_cid=rrpromo White Sox have a projected record of 81-81 and a 19% chance (still) to make the playoffs. Tigers 83-79 Royals 85-77 Indians 92-70 Blue Jays, Orioles and Royals the 3 favorites for the 2 wild card spots. Then the Mariners and Astros. White Sox ahead of Yankees, Rays, Angels, A's and Twins. http://www.fangraphs.com/coolstandings.aspx Fangraphs has the White Sox at 80-82 and in the same exact position, ahead of the Yankees but trailing five teams for the WC. TOR 54.6% BALT 47.3% HOU 40.2% SEA 27.6% DET 26.0% KC 22.4% CHW 12.8% NYY 11.2% So essentially eight teams for two spots. Odds of getting the 2nd wild card are about the same as they were last year, despite the better record.

Yes, you're right. It was a red herring meant to provoke a conversation away from Ventura. We all know that he's good at negotiating. That's not the point. It's what is he good at besides that? Not one single person has answered that question, or even attempted to. Why can't we beat even one of our four fellow AL Central team in terms of delivering ROI on the amount of money we invest in the franchise? At best, you can argue we probably spend money more effectively than the Tigers, but they had four division championships in a row, and a World Series appearance in 2006. I don't think that's going to cause the Tigers' organization to lose any sleep, or their fans to get too bent out of shape. And what was Rick Hahn doing from October, 2008 through the end of the 2012 season? He was helping the team win/rebuild how? (This is where you write that he was one of the most sought after GM candidates in the game at that time, and turned down interviews with Teams X/Y/Z....well, you could have said the same thing about Dan Evans fifteen years ago. What has he been doing recently? ANS: Trying to run an independent league and prevent it from falling into bankruptcy.)

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 11:26 PM) I would be ok with us trading Q for a collection of players, I mean s***, we don't score any runs for him anyway. I'm almost starting to think it's not even a statistical anomaly anymore and the players may actually be conscious of it at this point. Trade Quintana to Boston for Betts, Moncada, Benintendi, and Owens. They could get him for the three prospects. No way they include Betts in the deal as well. Maybe Moncada, Benitendi, Owens and Swihart/Vasquez, something like that. I also don't think they'd be will willing to give up Rodriguez in return, either. Not for Q.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 02:40 AM) I don't know what the big deal is. As a GM you win some you lose some. Hahn has lost more than he has won and by a fairly substantial margin. The bad still outweighs the good .However as many have said it starts at the top and Hahn is only a part of the problem. As awhole organization we really can't pinpoint anything the team does well that can lead to sustained success. Has he been right at least 60% of the time? That's the generally-accepted view around baseball of what an above-average or really good GM is capable of. Statistically, you should be right 50% of the time, by sheer force of luck or chance. Be right 40% of the time, whether you're a GM or a mutual fund manager, no matter how sound your logic, you'll be out of a job eventually. The fact that we're going on 8 seasons without a playoff appearance, and Hahn's been an integral part of operations for that whole entire time...one that is only ahead of Seattle (Jack Z. fired), SD (Hoyer gone, his replacement fired and Preller installed) and the Marlins (too long a story to tell here) is all you really need to know.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 02:33 AM) So when did Hahn mention only having 25 cents to spend? He didn't. I'm referring to Cleveland's situation. If the White Sox have 50 cents, the Indians have only 25-30 cents to spend. They have to make every penny count.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 10:33 PM) The entire premise of this thread was that Rick Hahn's contract negotiating skills weren't great cause the Indians have good contracts. No, it's that other teams are equally adept at that, and do lots of other things much better than we do. You can read it that way, we can even agree Sale/Eaton/Q represent the 3 greatest contracts in the modern era of sports history if you want to go that far in praising Hahn, but it's not nearly enough when you need 25 players to win. It's not even enough to beat any of the four teams in the AL Central since 2008. In everyone collectively jumping to defend Rick Hahn's honor, nobody has developed a cohesive argument for what he's actually good at. Saying the bulk of his moves made sense at the time they were made might be a good legal argument at Harvard, but it doesn't matter in the results-oriented world of professional sports.

And I chose CLE for other reasons, besides them being in first place: 1) Their fanbase has been screwed over more often than ours even, with two complete rebuilds to suffer through (we had White Flag and 1994)...and they arguably had the best and most loyal fans in baseball from the mid 90's through that 2001 team 2) They have lower revenues/broadcast rights deal by far than the White Sox 3) They still managed to make the playoffs in 2013 despite all these competitive disadvantages 4) They still managed to make hiring a top manager a priority, despite limited resources The GM never made any excuses. They messed up BADLY with Swisher and Bourn, but managed to mitigate those losses somewhat and move on. The GM doesn't blame the fans for only having 25 cents to spend, not $1, because he understands the history and the heartbreak those fans have been subjected to. The ONLY choice is to build a winning team despite all the obstacles. Their organization has a much more positive and uplifting atmosphere now as a result, because everyone's pulling in the same direction and they can play off their underdog status.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 08:56 PM) The Indians actually were one of the pioneers of this type of strategy, and have been doing it since the Mark Shapiro days. Yes, I mentioned this in my OP. Goes back to that mid 90's juggernaut team with Belle, Lofton, Manny Ramirez, Vizquel, Baerga, Colon, Nagy, etc.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 09:01 PM) Um, the entire premise of this thread is that Hahn does this one thing well but also, so does this other guy. Except the other guy does do something else quite well. He develops Latin America and he has a farm system chock full of prospects operating on a budget 75% of what the White Sox have, with the lowest or second lowest attendance in the AL each and every season. And all I'm doing is counter-arguing Dick Allen's assertion that Robin Ventura shouldn't be fired because he might be the next Torre/LaRussa/Leyland/Bobby Cox. So, following that string logically, that means Rick Hahn isn't providing him the talent to realize his potential. And, if Rick Hahn can do only ONE thing well, something that many other GM's can also do...where's our competitive niche or advantage over the rest of baseball? What else is Rick Hahn effective at or one of the Top 10 GM's in the game at doing? The strength of our organization used to be developing left-handed pitching (Buehrle/Danks/Sale/Q/Rodon/Santiago), but many are down on Don Cooper right now. That leaves only one aspect remaining, keeping players healthy, strength&conditioning/Herm Schneider.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 09:48 PM) Jury is still out on the guy that has hit .296/.357/.521 over 3 seasons, but Francisco Lindor is already the second best player in the AL after roughly a season? Lol, ok pal. Try trading Abreu for Lindor...and see how quickly the dial tone would be ringing in your ears. I said he WILL be the 2nd best player in the AL...maybe not today, but within the next 18-24 months. He's not going to put up huge offensive numbers, but in terms of WAR, defense, instincts, baserunning, there won't be a better young middle infielder. Correa will hit more homers, but isn't in the same ballpark with Lindor defensively. I suppose that I could have said 2nd/3rd to hedge my bet a bit, because there's an equaly strong argument for Manny Machado, as long as he stays healthy.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 07:49 PM) So you start a thread about another team to compare it to our GM. I mention another team that has absolutely failed to lock up its young pre-arb guys. Instead you change the subject and mention a ton of players completely off-base of what you were just talking about, except for one. Your point was that Hahn somehow was a failure for the 4 or 5 guys he had locked up early, but apparently Epstein with one was a genius, because he did exactly the opposite of what you just said Hahn should have been doing, because the GM in Cleveland did it. Yep, par for the course. And which players should the Cubs lock up? You never answered that question. This has nothing to do with the Cubs, and everything to do with beating the Indians (and Royals, for that matter). The Cubs extended Rizzo, and none of their other players (except for Rondon/Arrieta and Bryant) could even be possibly considered for extensions at this point. And extending Arrieta isn't anything like extending Q and Sale, because the odds of him having a catastrophic injury and the wear and tear on his body can't justify the Cubs committing $175-200 million when they can simply trade from their cache of young position players to replace him much more cheaply. I never said Hahn was a failure, I simply said that LOTS OF OTHER TEAMS IN BASEBALL HAVE DONE AND ARE DOING THE SAME THING that we for some reason consider revolutionary with the White Sox. I gave an example from one of our division rivals, but I could have gone through lots of other teams and provided examples. I never said Epstein was a genius. You did. Just now. And I never brought the Cubs into it, either. The whole point of advancing to the playoffs means you have to go through the AL Central. If other teams are doing the same thing as Rick Hahn does, but to even more effect because the scope will eventually be 8-12 players, HOW WILL RICK HAHN MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE IN ORDER TO COMPETE? What ideas or strategy does he have at his disposal? What evidence is there that he's up to the job? Finally, if Kris Bryant doesn't stay with the Cubs on a long term extension, it will be fairly shocking. Boras knows he's going to be more valuable to the city of Chicago, especially on a World Series winner....just like Lebron in Cleveland. Now with Carlos Rodon, can anyone come up with an argument why he's more valuable to the White Sox than any other team in baseball, and why he would have more marketing/financial opportunities remaining on the Sox, compared to other teams?

It would be nice if we were allowed to be fans in the fashion we want to without being TOLD how we should do it...this isn't WSI. If you start compelling people to post or "feel" a certain way, especially when there's scant reason to do so, well...you'll end up talking to yourself, mostly.

The main reason fans are posting is because there's finally a sense SOMETHING might change about this organization...and there's at least a 50/50% chance it might be for the better. Right now, there's a slim chance that things will improve on their own. If we just muddle along like last season, that's where you will get the complete apathy. Remember when we had that run to get back to .500 at the end of July and did nothing? Well, it's looking likely we will at least split this series, but even then we're going to be 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 games out. And doubling down and trading even more prospects to fight with 8-9 teams for that 2nd wild card? Everyone just wants things to go one way or the other....competing into September and the season being a compelling one like 2012...or just completely out of it. No in between's, it's crippling this franchise. Plus, fans would have a reason to be more optimistic if we showed some evidence of being able to beat teams in our division, JUST ONCE.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 07:32 PM) I bet he could start better threads than this. Why don't you invite him to? His job is partially related to public relations for the team. I know, I know, he has better things to worry about. Ventura also has mentioned he has never read anything in print or on the internet. So why don't you try Haber, and getting him to explain why there's been a complete turnaround philosophically from the path charted as the 2014 season ended. Let's find out how smart Haber is.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 05:14 PM) Way to move the goalposts to free agents. I though you were talking about signing young players to early contracts? What exactly are you talking about? Or because it didn't apply here you just changed the focus completely to list more names? You brought up the Cubs...which is relevant how? When I pointed out that there are no players on the Cubs that would even reasonably be extended AT THIS MOMENT, other than Bryant and Rondon, you couldn't come up with any players they should extend or that Hahn would extend. And then when I mentioned Rizzo, you ignored that. So who exactly on the Cubs would Rick Hahn be extending now were he the Cubs' GM? I mentioned free agents because other than Arrieta, all of their key players are currently locked up long-term, so who exactly COULD they be extending at this point???

Still, nobody can come up with anything that Hahn does well. Very telling.

Hope Ynoa and Jennings are just getting in some extra work...

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 05:06 PM) This is not what the thread that you created is about. Sure it is. Implicit in this thread is the idea that the Indians doubled and will eventually TRIPLE the number of bargain contract extensions for young members of their core. That the cumulative surplus value of that trumps anything else. Hahn won't, because what players will he have to extend? Lawrie? Frazier? Nate Jones? Cabrera? Rodon? Avi Garcia? Anderson might be the only one, EVENTUALLY.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 05:05 PM) So he hasn't done it, but that ok because something else unrelated... names, names, names. Makes perfect sense to me. Apparently Rizzo doesn't count, he sucks I guess. Zobrist/Heyward/Lackey/Fowler don't mean anything either. Why would Bryant want to leave Chicago if the Cubs win the World Series? Boras is all about MONEY/MARKETING. Keeping him in Chicago, he'd have a gold mine on his hand. What franchise would he be worth more to, exactly? NONE. That team doesn't exist. So out of all those young players, WHICH ONES WOULD RICK HAHN EXPERTLY GET TO SIGN EXTENSIONS TODAY AND FOR HOW MUCH??? H.Rondon Bryant Soler Russell Baez Schwarber Contreras Almora Please inform us all.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 05:01 PM) So you think maybe someday he will be a better negotiator, but now, just because he signed better players to more team friendly contracts, well"......Lindor. No, lol. I think you build a baseball TEAM and organization. This is not the NBA, or the University of Kentucky basketball program. I don't think you CAN EVER win with a core of just three or four or even five guys in MLB when the rest of that team is roughly replacement level. The Indians have 12 that cumulatively have more value all around baseball than a number of MLB organizations, major and minor leagues...at the moment. That's not even taking into consideration their 5 top 100 MILB/Baseball America prospects.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:52 PM) So one other team has done this, and that is supposed to show that Hahn is some how a bad GM? Um, if it was that easy, how come the Cubs haven't locked up any of their young core? Why would they need to? They are printing as much money as the Chinese over here. And, in the next year or so, I'm sure they will start making these moves with Bryant and a few others. They've already done it with Rizzo. They can afford to be patient and wait for the best young players to separate themselves from the chaff. There's no rush to decide on guys like Russell, Baez, Soler, Schwarber, etc. Lester, Zobrist and Heyward already have their multi-year contracts. Maybe Rondon makes sense, he and Bryant. At the moment.

QUOTE (MIZ-SOX @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:53 PM) So because there are other good negotiators in the league, Hahn can't also be a good negotiator? Got it. What else is Rick Hahn good at? I never said he can't be, he has done a good job with those 3 contracts (jury's out on Abreu now), but that he's some magical Jesus walking on water and raising Lazarus from the dead....the Joe Maddon of GM's with mystical powers, just not seeing that at all.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:47 PM) Mike Napoli increases his OPS .036 and he is the comeback player of the year? Did you break up with Ian Desmond? It will actually be Sabathia. For the AL Central, in terms of importance to their teams, I'd divide it between Verlander and Napoli. Napoli only had 407 at-bats last year. He's on pace for 600 this year. You can argue WAR values all you want, but I've followed the Indians all year long and he's had a ton of clutch hits. On paper, statistically, in terms of homers and RBI's, he's been critically important with Michael Brantley out. Now I know that some fans no longer care about these traditional metrics, but they still exist.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:39 PM) Sale was cheaper than Kluber , q cheaper than Carassco, and both have an additional team friendly option year, and Eaton with the options cheaper than Santana. I wouldn't trade Sale and Q and Eaton for Kluber and Carassco and Santana. And they are the contracts Hahn negotiated are more team friendly. Someday you may introduce facts into your arguments. But if you did so on this one, the thread would never have been made, Brilliant. I'm surprised Indians' fans are not currently clamoring to trade their front office executives. If they're reading this thread, you've probably convinced them. The fact is that Lindor is going to be the best player in the AL outside of Mike Trout. It's just that nobody will know who he is (see Jose Quintana) because he happens to play in Cleveland. Salazar has a chance to be one of the Top 5 pitchers, if he isn't there already. On Latin America alone, the Indians have beaten anything the White Sox have done AS A WHOLE the last five years. So selectively stacking up 3 of their core against the 3 best from ours....is inane at best, and obtuse at worst.