caulfield12

And then they supplemented with ONE YEAR deals (see Red Sox 2013) for Napoli (Comeback Player of the Year, possibly), Rajai Davis and Uribe. None of those guys were expensive, at all. Seemingly every year, the AL Central teams since 2003 (with the exception of 2005 obviously) have been able to beat us at the free agent game...first it was the Twins, then the Tigers, now the Indians and Royals have outdone us. The only commonality is the results stay the same for the White Sox. So you've got that 8-10 core of young guys all under age 30, not to mention Cody Allen and Shaw, who has been one of the best set-up guys in baseball until recently. Plus Jose Ramirez/Salazar/Bauer, three players with tremendous surplus value at the moment. Ramirez is the closest thing in the AL to Ben Zobrist in terms of positional flexibility. Marlon Byrd and Almonte go down with PED's suspensions, no problem! Tyler Naquin has a chance to be a good player (relatively high draft pick), and then you've got 5 Top 100 prospects if you want to make a trade to "put you over the top." http://www.letsgotribe.com/2016/2/13/10985...r-clint-frazier The White Sox have one remaining Top 100 guy in Fulmer, whose value has taken a step or two back so far in his minor league career.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:17 PM) I'm going to have to switch my "Unbelievable......" posts to every time someone blames Hahn for something. It's just as hard to come up with a list of things Hahn is good at...compared to the list of things Ventura is good at. We can speculate all we want that "Rick Hahn if you gave him the Dodgers/Yankees/Red Sox/Angels/Giants' payroll would be the best GM in the game, and a HoF front office executive." But, for the time being, all we have is the evidence before us compiled with the White Sox. You follow the team closely, what would you do? Fire no one? Just Steverson? You always seem to pair Hahn/KW together, so there's really no separation in terms of their identity or success rate/failure rate. Therefore, as a cumulative whole for their body of work since 2012, should they stay or go?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) So looking at the Indians proves Hahn deserves no credit for his deals. Sale's contract was 5 years $32 million with a $12.5 million option and a $13.5 million option. Q 5 years $21 million with 2 $10.5 million options after that. Eaton 5 years $23.5 million with a $9.5 million and $10.5 million option. What a myth this guy is a great contract negotiator. The ridiculousness will never end. The point is that every GM in baseball is capable of doing the same thing. Not just Rick Hahn. You're telling me that Hahn would have gotten all those "deals" with Indians players for a 33% discount? In fact, the Indians are in much better shape with these types of contracts, and avoided the trap of taking a Boras client who will never in a million years sign an extension and lose a free agent year.

Why would he have a higher ceiling than Hawkins, though? Both are not close to five tool players.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:07 PM) The 1B is what Forbes projected the team was worth. The cubs sold for around that number. i don't think the Sox would get that. Values have increased exponentially since even then. You have the 2019 media/broadcast rights bonanza, possibly. You have a number of attractive assets (Sale/Eaton/Quintana/Rodon/Fulmer/Collins/Anderson) in the organization...an owner willing to spend $150 million per year could easily make that workable in the AL Central...and that sweetheart stadium lease agreement until 2029 or whatever year. But you can't supplement the core adequately enough to be a playoff team. At a payroll of $120-130 million, they're always going to be a couple of players short unless they stop making bad mistakes in the free agent or trade (Shields) market. At one point in the last decade (after 2005/06 period), the White Sox were the 8th most valuable franchise. I can't remember where we are now, somewhere between 14-18...right in the middle of franchise valuations.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) The Yanks are in a tough position to make that happen with no apparent place for either to play. If they do sign as a pair, I think the Dodgers would be the favorite with holes in LF and at 3B. Have they given up on Turner? Really? The Dodgers still have Thompson, Kiki Hernandez, Van Slyke, Ethier, Pederson and Puig. I'm pretty sure despite the "loss" of Carl Crawford they can cover that position adequately. Doesn't mean they won't sign them. But I don't think the likes of Chase Headley or Brett Gardner/Teixeira/Beltran/A-Rod will stop the Yankees from making a move, either.

The last big signing, Adolfo...has kind of faded away from view. We don't even hear about him being considered for the Top 10 list anymore. Yes, it's a "lottery ticket" mechanism, and you hope that maybe 1 out of 20/25 turn into MLB All-Stars. Not sure if the ROI is there, not for small and middle market teams (unless their scouting is just top notch and their miss rate is lower).

It would be a bit funnier if Shields himself just stuck that tee and ball out there and skipped his side session....hiding in the tunnel while the media took pictures. You almost have to have a sense of humor about it at this point, it's so historically horrific. It's making Dunn's 2011, LaRoche's 2015 and Frazier's recent slide look not so bad in comparison.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:05 PM) I didn't realize that pushing everyone to get off the "KW is the cause of all evil" for the White sox would turn to "Hahn is the cause of all evil." I guess people still don't get that they work TOGETHER. Everyone is exhausted talking about Ventura...and this whole Shields debacle (so far) has almost forced everyone to start looking up higher on the food chain. JR is the only one who knows who was the biggest advocate and pushed the hardest for Shields. Maybe KW, maybe Hahn...I doubt it was 50/50 an equal presentation from both execs when they made that pitch to JR.

They had a good shot at a fairly open goal the very last 30 seconds as well. Spain just doesn't have enough offensive playmakers/finishers anymore, compared with 6 years ago.

Sure, you can put it there if you'd like...however, I believe this is a more detailed/different perspective that doesn't touch upon anything being mentioned in that particular thread in more than a general or generic way.

I was just thinking about why Hahn gets SO MUCH credit for the Eaton, Sale, Q and Abreu (this isn't as good, starting next year) contracts. Why do we have the assumption that nobody else could have done the same? That you have to have a law or business degree to pull it off? Then I thought about the Indians and looked at their payroll. Still well under $100 million, despite the Swisher/Bourn/C.Johnson debacles. Carlos Santana 5 years/$21 million 2017 option Michael Brantley 4 years/$25 million 2018 option Jason Kipnis 6 years/$52.5 million 2020 option Corey Kluber 5 years/$38.5 million 2020/21 options Carlos Carrasco 4 years/$22 million 2019/20 options Yan Gomes 6 years/$23 million 2020/21 options Josh Tomlin 2 years/$5.5 million 2018 option That's not even considering future extensions for Lindor, Jose Ramirez, Salazar (top five pitcher in the AL now) and possibly Trevor Bauer, if he's not traded. That's what is called a young core, and all locked up under favorable contract conditions. You can quibble about Brantley's injury history, and Gomes also hasn't gotten back to his 2014 form, but WOW. It's actually kind of depressing...just when we thought the Royals were leaving the scene, you have the Indians now (last year at this time, it was the Twins with Buxton/Sano/Berrios on the way, things can and certainly do change in baseball, Sox fans know that all too well in 2016.) At any rate, I think this idea of Hahn pulling off "miracle extensions" is a bit ridiculous. These deals have been in place since the mid 90's Cleveland Indians teams. Other small market teams like the Rays/Twins/A's have followed suit, as the only way to survive and keep their core intact an additional year or two. Finally, there's one last point. I don't have the statistical evidence in front of me, but I think there's a niche to be found signing young Latin American talent (outside of the draft) and then giving them early extensions...because it's more money than anyone in their village has ever seen in ten lifetimes. American-born players might be likely to turn these moves down (see Rodon/Boras) because they're 100% certain they will make even more in the future. You can certainly see this motivation with Jose Quintana and his comments upon signing his extension. Alexei Ramirez, his original deal was one of the great bargain basement signings in Sox history. KW signed it. Or Salvador Perez, five years and $7 million for the second best catcher in baseball after Posey. A contract so "one-sided/unfair," the Royals ripped it up and gave him a new extension before they even had to. If this is actually the ONE area where Rick Hahn is good/great at, and nothing else...then I don't see why every other GM in baseball isn't capable of accomplishing the same thing??? I'd argue if he was the "best in the art of making the deal" (Trumpism), he'd be able to get Carlos Rodon/Boras to sign an extension. Does anyone believe he's capable of doing that? I don't think so! Finally, NONE of his free agents signings have turned out to create "surplus value," not by a long shot.

Especially when you bring in a college coach (the equivalent of not earning your stripes in the NBA). While you can't exactly compare Ventura and Hoiberg (playing experience, but still much different recruiting talented JC and disenchanted transfer players into Ames), the Bulls' players certainly could identify the difference between Thibs and Hoiberg. When you obviously go the wrong direction (less talented) in coaching because of an internal power struggle, eventually the execs in charge are going to have targets painted on their backs...because the fans only care about results or the bottom line. While Brad Stevens has worked out wonderfully, and Donovan did pretty well this year....there are multiple examples of failed transitions from the college game littered across NBA history of the past 30 years or so.

That's why it's impossible to compare Epstein with the Red Sox/Cubs vs. let's say, Terry Ryan of the Twins OR Friedman with the Rays vs. the Dodgers today. They have the financial leeway to take risks that they would never dream of taking on for budget-conscious teams. Look at Sandoval, Hanley Ramirez, Porcello (much better this year) and Rusney Castillo for just four recent examples of moves that a White Sox GM could/would never make. Moncada, same thing. Same reason why judging Brian Cashman has always been equally difficult. Would Dave Dombrowski be able to win with a "small market" team today? At least you have his time with the Marlins to assess that, although the evidence is contradictory. Do we give GM's more credit for getting maximum return on resources available/ROI or simply does getting to the playoffs or winning the World Series trump all? Brian Sabean always was a "middle tier"-rated GM, but how can he NOT be ranked as one of the 5-7 best now with the Giants' track record in the post-season?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/base...rticle21984335/ I should have replayed the SSS podcast because it wasn't clear the way it was explained. At any rate, as Beeston's close friend, JR blocked KW going because it would have undermined Beeston or pushed him out of day-to-day franchise operations....although it seems like he had an opportunity to quickly go to Boston or could join the White Sox at any time (loyalty, lifelong friend of JR, etc.) Why we would want to bring someone more known for the 1992-93 Jays' teams and less associated with the modern running of a franchise....is pretty much the same reason KW gave for hiring Ozzie over the much more experienced and 2X World Series-winning Cito Gaston. Just what we need....more cooks in the kitchen, more valuable resources not allocated into coaching/development/talent evaluation.

Shields gets rocked again Thursday. More fingers point to Rick Hahn and away from Ventura as the patsy/scapegoat.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 08:52 AM) I think Nick Hostetler is a prime counter argument to you. Hahn is building up his staff, remember how loyal this org is, it'll take time to get his people in. Yes, and Marco Paddy. On the other hand, Buddy Bell sucks at his job, was a terrible big league manager and personally vouched for Mark Teahen. What do we do for all this success, we give him a promotion. Other than blind loyalty, I can't see what he has done well or effectively, at all. KW loses his magic touch, is failing as a GM, we make him an executive VP. Then we block him from going to Toronto because JR has a "Thibs" moment when he finds out that his friend Paul Beeston is secretly trying to bring KW on board. Ironically, Beeston is now one of the execs being mentioned (by Margalus, at least) as a possible KW/Hahn successor. AA is the GM we should target, not Beeston as another "exec" who simply isn't prepared for modern baseball analysis and the quant movement...he's a dinosaur, outdated. Laumann isn't successful at drafting with a few notable exceptions like Chris Sale, we keep him on in the organization regardless. How has keeping three "failed" execs around been positive for the franchise in any way, shape or form? They just muddy the waters and make it harder for their successes to do their job effectively when everyone's competing for JR's ear.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 07:10 AM) All these people graduated from the Kellogg School of Management, just like Rick Hahn: RELEVANT!!!! Professional Services[edit] James L. Allen, Founder of Booz Allen Hamilton consultancy, and namesake of the Kellogg School's executive education center. Arthur E. Andersen, Founder of Arthur Andersen. Edwin G. Booz, Founder of Booz Allen Hamilton consultancy. Financial Services[edit] Joseph E. Hasten - President & CEO, ShoreBank; former Vice Chairman, U.S. Bancorp Suzanne Iroche, CEO of FinBank[1] Gary Parr, Deputy Chairman of Lazard William A. Osborn, Chairman and former CEO of Northern Trust Corporation Patrick Ryan, Founder and Executive Chairman of Aon Corporation Thomas J. Wilson, President and CEO of Allstate Insurance Company Consumer goods[edit] Douglas R. Conant, President and CEO of Campbell Soup Company Betsy Holden, Former CEO of Kraft Foods Tony Vernon, CEO of Kraft Foods Group Retail[edit] Brad Blum, CEO Emeritus of Burger King Steve Odland, Chairman and CEO of Office Depot Gregg Steinhafel, President, CEO, Chairman of the Board, Target Corporation Media, Sports and Entertainment[edit] Mallika Chopra, author, President of Intent Cynthia Frelund, ESPN Analyst [2] Eddie George, professional football player, Heisman Trophy winner Industry[edit] Kushagra Bajaj, Vice Chairman, Bajaj Hindusthan Andrew Fastow, former CFO, Enron Scott J. Freidheim, President and CEO of CDI Corporation Christopher G. Kennedy, Chairman, Joseph P. Kennedy Enterprises David Kohler, President and CEO, Kohler Company Chris Kubasik, former President and COO Lockheed Martin Ellen J. Kullman, Chair and CEO, DuPont Ivan Menezes, CEO of Diageo Roshni Nadar, Executive Director and CEO, HCL Corporation Government[edit] Ali Babacan, Minister of State for the Economy, 2002-2007, Minister of Foreign Affairs, 2007-2009, Deputy Prime Minister for Financial and Economic Affairs, 2009-present Republic of Turkey[3] Charlie Baker, Governor of Massachusetts, 2015-present Esteban Bullrich, Argentine National Deputy for Frente PRO, 2005-2009. 2010 to present, Minister of Education, City of Buenos Aires John Cebrowski, member of the New Hampshire House of Representatives[4] Alexander De Croo, Belgian Deputy Prime Minister of Belgium and Minister of Pensions Robert Dold, member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Illinois, 2011-2013; 2015-present Jonathan Greenblatt, Special Assistant to the President and Director of the Office of Social Innovation and Civic Participation in the Domestic Policy Council for the Obama Administration, 2011 to present. John Hoeven, Governor of North Dakota, 2000-2010; Senator, 2011 to present, United States Randy Hopper Wisconsin State Senator, 2009-2011 Somkid Jatusripitak (PhD Marketing, 1984), Deputy Prime Minister of Thailand, 2015 to present; former Minister of Finance and Minister of Commerce of Thailand, 2001-2006 Suvit Maesincee, Vice Minister for the Prime Minister and Adviser to the Minister of Finance of Thailand, 2015 to present Susan Pamerleau, retired United States Air Force major general and the Republican sheriff of Bexar County, Texas, first woman elected to that office, 2012[5] Cesar Purisima, Secretary of Trade & Industry, Republic of the Philippines, 2004-2005; Secretary of Finance, Republic of the Philippines, 2010 to present.[6] Uttama Savanayana, Minister of Information and Communication Technology of Thailand, 2015 to present There is a conection. None are more famous than Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa or Joe Torre...therefore, Northwestern sucks. But you've hit upon a great idea. If the Browns could hire DePodesta, we should hire Eddie George and bring KW's football mentality/Chicago "toughness" back to the Southside. P.S. I'm now going to play with my 16 month old son and his grandparents and then watch Silicon Valley for approximately 30 minutes. It's 915 pm China time, so the fact that I have no compelling desire to argue this any longer doesn't mean I am avoiding you, but rather that I will go to bed and then turn on the Sox game in approximately 10 hours, at 7 am China time.

STILL WAITING FOR AN ACTUAL DEFENSE OF RICK HAHN...which won't be forthcoming.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 07:05 AM) I don't think spending a spring on the bench of a HS baseball team is the difference between being a good GM and a bad one. I have yet to see one successful GM, although maybe you can provide a link, that pointed to his HS varsity letter as the catalyst in his success. BTW, the guy you never knew existed when you claimed the Sox didn't use sabermetrics, Dan Fabian, who you now say is one guy who shouldn't get fired, and maybe should get a crack at the GM job..............doesn't have a varsity letter. We don't know exactly how much they rely upon it. With the Pirates, it's very obvious. Jonah Keri wrote a book detailing the sea change. So how can I advocate for his firing when I don't even know how much say he or Jeremy Haber have in the organization, versus, let's say, Buddy Bell or KW or Laumann. I also never said Fabian should get the GM job, lol...where did you make that inference from? Just because I said they MIGHT be spared so there is some continuity going forward doesn't mean he should be a GM, or is qualified. And I questioned Haber because he seemed to be Hahn's advocate/progeny within the organization. Hahn is supposedly mentoring him, or has taken him under his wing.

Drake LaRoche=the next Curry/Thompson Or Nobel Prize Winner for Science/Math due to home schooling philosophy. You choose the likelier eventuality.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:52 AM) You were pooh poohed because you made the claim that a HS Varsity letter was a requirement to be a GM in baseball. Laughable. Explain then, with this high and mighty education of his...why he has been so terrible. I assume you haven't read Larry's SSS article or refuse to acknowledge it. Write the rebuttal or counter. You're good at doing that for Don Cooper and Robin Ventura, staking out devil's advocate positions against the majority opinion. Tell us why Rick Hahn is so good at his job and what he has done to deserve retaining his position any longer. Since you don't believe he's being held back by KW, that they are basically one and the same philosophically...how can you justify keeping them, since they are the reason the talent level on the White Sox and especially in their minor league system is so poor. You say we can't fire Ventura because the players aren't good enough, so then who is responsible for that? Are you going to blame it all on JR's budgetary constraints? Then how can teams like the Rays, A's, Pirates, Astros, Twins, Royals, Indians, etc., manage to do a lot more with LESS MONEY? Let's hear it, without blaming the fans or JR. Why should Hahn keep his job?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:51 AM) If you are questions his athletic background, why would you compare him to a guy who played at the highest level of college hoops? I SAID EDUCATIONALLY... What does that have to do with playing basketball or baseball?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:49 AM) Where do you get your information? He was at the forefront of paying minor league coaches, and has been instrumental in getting scouts more highly paid. You really have no idea what you are talking about. What has been the draft budget for the White Sox for the past 30 years? It's either LOWEST, 2nd lowest or 3rd from the bottom depending on which research article you go by. The manager for the White Sox has always been among the lowest paid in the majors, that still hasn't changed. I guess he skipped sending the checks to those having anything to do with hitting/defense/position player development. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Hasler and JR Perdew and Britt Burns and the minor league pitching instructors getting paid more than their peers, because Don Cooper is one of the highest paid pitching coaches in the majors and his minor league staff is also known for being excellent in this regard of preparation/instruction/development. If our scouts were so highly paid, then why they have been so terrible at their jobs for the last decade? And when I read about scouting departments, almost every team in the majors has a more extensive network than ours, particularly in Latin America. There's no way we haven't been in the bottom 25-30% over the last twenty years in TOTAL DOLLARS SPENT ON SCOUTING, both advanced scouting, amateur/collegiate and Latin American scouting.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:40 AM) That would be a great comparison if Rick Hahn was a three-year starter at a blue-blood college baseball program and then was an assistant coach for that team while he completed his law degree. Otherwise, Rick Hahn has a somewhat similar educational background to Johnnie Cochran and Marcia Clark. Does Hahn have an alibi for the night Nicole Brown was murdered? Do I sense a new 30 for 30, "Rick Hahn: Made in America?" He graduated from Duke in 1989 with a double major in philosophy and political science, and, later received a JD from Duke Law School in 1995 and an MBA from the Duke Fuqua School of Business in 1995.[7] Sounds like nothing in common with Hahn EDUCATIONALLY. Northwestern and Duke are comparable. HLS is a step up from Duke, obviously. But still similar backgrounds. I was pooh-poohed for questioning Hahn's playing career/athletic background...as if it wasn't important in the least in terms of being a good MLB GM, but I think a lot of people are starting to question what exactly it is that Hahn can do well.