caulfield12

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:42 PM) Please no more giving up resources to add pitchers to this roster while also drafting pitchers non-stop. I'm begging here. This is the logical corollary to "must trade Sale/Quintana," which is, instead of blowing things up and taking a step back, turning around and giving $200 million to Cueto/Price in order to "fix everything" (which of course doesn't address the offense/defense/baserunning/overall lack of fundamentals at all). Of course, history teaches MLB franchises that moves like this one have about a 10-15% chance of long-term success and almost always go bad.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:35 PM) KC has the second oldest team in baseball, we're actually 8th youngest (though I know that doesn't mean we're brimming with young talent). I know that doesn't tell the whole story obviously (because Perez, Hosmer, and Moustakas are still in their mid-20s), but that pitching staff is pretty old. I'm not sure they have such a bright future. That changes quickly when they get rid of Infante (probably Top 50 MILB prospect Raul Mondesi, Jr., who will be moved to 2B and come up in the second half). Rios and Morales are obviously older, but Kendrys is a key contributor and All-Star. Rios will be replaced soon enough. When you look at the rotation: Ventura Duffy (when healthy) Vargas Chris Young Guthrie Blanton So, yeah, right now.....their pitching staff (back end is older). On the other hand, they've got Hochevar, Medlen (on the mend), Finnegan, Manaea, Zimmer....three more pitchers at the back half of their Top 10 prospects list, and a lot of scouts really love the kid (Ashe Russell) they took from Indiana and the second pitcher they drafted just recently. The next thing is that the Royals are really doing well from an attendance standpoint (Top Ten) this year again and they'll have the financial flexibility if they want to make one-year/band aid moves to improve 2B and possibly RF, as well as adding one more starting pitcher. I wouldn't even be completely shocked if they brought back James Shields. Well, a little shocked. But they're going to go after every top starter that's out there and they have the farm system to send back young pitching (and 2-3 guys) in the other direction. Imagine how scary they would be adding Aroldis Chapman to that bullpen, for example. In that case, the starting pitching would just have to get them through five innings...but everything I've been reading points to a starter.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:30 PM) I continue to point out that our bad contracts for vets really consists of 2 players and given the better contracts we have, they ultimately negate each other (if not move us still to being in a positive position from a standpoint of "wasted" money): 1. John Danks (closer and closer to being gone) 2. Melky (still too early to fully write-off) On the counter, we have 2 to 3 of the better contracts in baseball (which helps to off-set) 1. Sale 2. Q 3. Abreu Note: I do not think Roberton's contract is a bad one (little upside to be a great one but if we wantd to trade him, someone would take him and that contract from us based upon his current production). Similarly, I don't think the LaRoche contract is a terrible one either. Hard for 2 year deal to set you back and LaRoche is notorious 2nd half player (and his OPS compared to historical norms through this part of the season is nothing to snide about). I also won't get worked up about contracts like Duke or others. If it is I won't discuss Ramirez / Shark as it has no impact going forward at this point. But, assuming no new contract for Shark and not picking up Alexei's extension... Back to Balta 101....how much "new" spending do you honestly expect in the off-season (assuming they finish something like 10-15 games under .500 again and season tickets are down another 25%)? This is where it keeps going back to the trade Quintana scenario...since there's no way to spend ourselves out of the problem, and signing Alex Gordon or Heyward for $100 million isn't going to move the bar enough since it's not the NBA and one player can't change the entire complexion of your team enough (and that's assuming they both hit, which is far from certain with Heyward). That puts us back in the box of going after guys like Zobrist and Chris Davis (cheaper options, but not without their flaws and risks) or rolling all the dice on Justin Upton, which would make a splash but still not really "FIX" anything, either. Would they make a play for "aces" in Price or Cueto...? JR in the past said he would with Tanaka, but are Price/Cueto too risky because of their respective ages and more wear and tear?

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:20 PM) He was projecting into the future though. I think the Royals are a strong team and respect everything they do, but I don't see them as some unbeatable juggernaut with tons of talent coming to make them better. No one knows what will happen but no reason other teams can't contend with them. Very good team though and Caufield points out Twins / Indians as teams to be most scared of. I have little concern over Tigers (long term...this year, yeah, still relevant, but long term, they are a mess) and still think we are in as good a spot as Twins / Indians going forward (if not better). Royals are better then us, but we have benefit of larger market and potential to increase payroll (unless Royals decide to play at our level which is always possible). There's the Lindor and Aiken become superstars and one of Rodon/Fulmer fall on their faces and/or get hurt thing. Cleveland has a younger (position player) core in Kipnis (probably the best 2B again in the AL) Brantley and Santana that are more proven than anyone from the Sox younger core players (Abreu is obviously the exception). I'll just put it this way, if you're Antonetti, would you trade Kipnis/Brantley/Lindor for Abreu/Eaton/Garcia? You could substitute Carlos Santana for Lindor, I still don't think you make that deal if you're CLE. Actually, based on Brantley being a near MVP performer last season, I know you don't make that deal because Kipnis and Brantley play more important defensive positions than Abreu. I am also sure they wouldn't trade their Top 5 starters for our Top 5...and I mean Carrasco (who's out) instead of Marcum.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:11 PM) That's hard to ignore. For years we heard how great their farm system was. There is ONE valuable lesson to be learned from the Royals. They didn't give up on their players....Alex Gordon went through a position change and banishment to AAA (which had to hurt even more because he was born, raised and had collegiate success there)...but he came out even stronger. A lot of teams would have given up. Cain couldn't stay healthy to save his life but they didn't trade him. Moustakas and Hosmer were described as busts or disappointing for going on 2-3 years. The point is that they didn't panic. Those players were open to instruction (Gordon with Rusty Kuntz, improving every day in the OF, Moustakas learning how to hit to the opposite field, Hosmer learning how to drive the ball, etc.) Of course, they had other players like Sal Perez and Escobar who made immediate impacts and hit the ground running...all things considered. The White Sox are NEVER patient with their young position players...you can look at the Borchard/Anderson/Josh Fields era, or the more recent disappointments like Beckham, Viciedo, Morel, Semien, Micah Johnson, Sanchez, etc. So why are other teams patient with their young players? How did we get away from that same patience we showed with the likes of Crede and Aaron Rowand? Oh, it's because White Sox fans are the only ones in the majors who get impatient and can't stand rebuilding and won't get behind a complete teardown.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:28 AM) Haven't you read his posts? Be like the Royals, and get into the Wild Card once every 30 years. Well, the Astros, Nationals, Rays, Rangers, Cubs and Twins all have the wrong idea, too. Must really suck for their fans to be playing better than expected and in the playoff hunt. What do all those teams have in common? Well, they all have (or recently had) exceptional farm systems that develop competent and well-prepared players ready to contribute when called upon when players get hurt on the major league roster.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:54 AM) Jamie Carroll pitches now? There was a rumor he/Noesi were going to take Rodon's next start (against the Rangers) and let him take a breather. Unconfirmed, but logical.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:49 AM) I feel like anytime Hahn has spoken, changes were made. I can't imagine this is the last change. I presume we will move Sanchez but I still get really irritated at the impatience our front office has with young players. If we were to have Micah start the year, we should have known that he'd have defensive lapses, etc, and been ready to deal with it and work through his development. We weren't and got overly impatient then turned to the next savior (who was on fire for so long that no matter what he was due for a poor stretch and clearly he's struggled) but again, I feel like their is no vision in our moves and how we run things. Maybe I'm overthinking but this organization just keeps going downhill. I got excited about Melky and that was my mistake but I also kept talking about how with someone like Avi and with our team D, we had to be aware of our defensive limitations and make sure whomever we brought in for the other OF spot had to be a good defender (unless of course we were going to have room at DH and that went out of the equation as soon as we signed LaRoche). When we signed Melky, we became stuck with two awful defensive outfielders to go along with an awful 2B (Micah is an awful defender at this point...not saying he will be forever, but his D was raw and bad and no one should be surprised with that or had expected anything else), an older Ramirez, and Connor who is a total butcher (and has been pretty much his entire career at 3B). I don't get as worked up over 1st, because its first, but we basically had one plus defender in Eaton (and you could have argued to start the season Ramirez being slightly above avg...but we've all talked about his age, etc, and potential declines their). That is freaking terrible. Oh and did I mention, a lot of those guys that were bad defenders, weren't well above average hitters either? Recipe for disaster. One thing if you are a bad defensive team with a good offense...another thing when you built your team around pitching and have a lousy offense to also have a lousy defense. I realize hindsight is 20/20 but it is just alarming short-sited and poor. I should have stuck more to my guns in the off-season at how stupid this franchise was for continuing to ignore defense but I do admit, I got caught up in the hoopla with the Melkman thinking he'd hit well enough to off-set that defense. You're finally coming around. The problem is getting one or both of Garcia away from the outfield and to 1B/DH, but you STILL have to keep one of them in LF/RF, even if you do end up trading LaRoche this mid-year or in the off-season (which is still looking quite unlikely because Hahn would be basically admitting defeat for next year as well). Looking at internal solutions, the best defenders are probably Thompson, Sanchez and C. Rondon, and most scouts are dubious about their ability to hit consistently and get on base enough to justify their defense. What sucks is all four AL Central teams...you can examine their major and minor league rosters, see their strategy/plan and understand that they have bright/er futures than the Sox, especially the Twins and probably the Royals as well. In the process of focusing so much on beating the Tigers, they just got old...but we've gotten out-GM'ed by everyone in the division for the last five years. We've seen Viciedo play better than expected in 2012, Eaton in 2014, Avi in 2015...but then it turned out to be unsustainable either offensively, defensively or both. How do you explain that? Ramirez, we can surmise he just got older (and is older than his birth certificate)...but even guys like Flowers, Gillaspie, LaRoche and Abreu are all worse defensively than last season...it's an endemic affecting every single player on the roster other than Beckham and Sanchez, and neither of them can hit. Our two most promising hitting prospects, Anderson and Hawkins...neither one of those guys projects as being above-average (defensively) at the next level. They've gotten wonderfully fortunate with Rodon and Fulmer falling into their laps, too. Some things have gone well. Perhaps the scariest thing to me is how HEALTHY we've been, all things considered, this season. We can look at the teams like the Rays, Rangers and Cardinals playing well despite replacing 2-4 starters at the major league level because of their strong systems and can't begin to imagine what our record (or future) would be if we had an injury to Sale, Quintana, Rodon or Fulmer...or Abreu, for that matter.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:39 AM) I didn't take a shot at Cooper here. You did by saying the Sox are failing at reclamation projects worse than any other. It is amazing how many times you actually argue with yourself. No, I said failing to derive any long-term value from them. That's different. For example, Nestor Molina, Matt Davidson and Zack Stewart. Not bringing back value in return...for example, if we had Josh Reddick instead, we wouldn't have had to sign Melky Cabrera, but that's just one example. Don Cooper at least has Sergio Santos, Humber, Noesi, Putnam, Quintana, Hector Santiago, Petricka, Addison Reed (any time someone after the 2nd round makes a big impact that's a success), Nate Jones, Edwin Jackson...that he can claim as recent successes (to some point), not going all the way back to the 2000-2009 decade. What do the White Sox have that's similar from a position player perspective, players that were acquired via waivers or for next to nothing and turned into assets? Alejandro DeAza? Conor Gillaspie? I guess some out there might even want to blame Don Cooper for Paulino and Scott Downs...as for John Danks sucking post-injury, and for Jeff Samardzija this season, he's too old to play defense for the White Sox in 2015.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:36 AM) Where's that long-term solution? At this point, Montas and Fulmer are the best options...but many, even a majority, believe Montas and Danish are destined for the bullpen. Which puts all of the pressure on Carson Fulmer, and maybe, just maybe, Erik Johnson.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:02 AM) To be fair though, the organization has not made much of an attempt to develop many hitters in the darft since 2010 here are the positions drafted in the first 5 rounds: 2015 - 3 Pitchers 2014 - 4 Pitchers - 1 Catcher (Austin) 2013 - 3 Pitchers - 1 SS (Anderson #1), 1 OF (May #13) 2012 - 2 Pitchers - 1 OF (Hawkins #8), 1 1B (Barnum #27), 1 2B (DeMichele), 1 SS Nick Basto 2011 - 4 Pitchers - 1 OF (Walker) 2010 - 5 Pitchers - 1 1B (Wilkins) So 21 pitchers and 9 position players drafted in that time span. Of the trades that have been made, the prospects that they have acquired have been: Samardzjia trade - 1 pitching prospect Gordon Beckham trade - 1 pitching prospect ADA trade - acquired 2 pitching prospects Adam Dunn trade - acquired 1 pitching prospect Jake Peavy trade - acquired 2 pitching prospects, 1 SS (Rondon #12) Jesse Crain trade - 1 pitching prospect, 1 3B prospect (Kline) Matt Thorntom trade - 1 OF prospect (Jacobs) Addison Reed trade - 1 3B prospect (Davidson #9) Jason Frasor trade - 2 pitching prospects Ozzie Guillen trade - 2 pitching prospects , 1 SS prospect (Martinez) Carlos Quentin trade - 2 pitching prospects Sergio Santos trade - 1 pitching prospect Scott Linebrink trade - 1 pitching prospect Thats 16 pitchers and 5 position players in trades in that time as well (not including ML ready players and spring training filler trades - true prospects) In all the Sox have added 37 pitchers to only 14 position players in the last five years in the top of draft or in trades. Of the 14 hitting prospects acquired - Kline, Wilkins, Jacobs, and Martinez are out of the org 6 of the remaining 10 are in the top 30 prospects. Yes guys like Walker and Barnum have been busts but they have made up for it by drafting guys like Michalzeski, Semien, and Johnson in the later rounds. Except for your last sentence, agreed. For them to truly be making up for anything, they'd have to be doing something (sustainable) at the major league level for the Sox OR be used in KW 2000's style to turn them into Ozzie-approved veterans like Jim Thome, Javy Vasquez or Edwin Jackson. Turning Semien/Phegley/Ravelo/Bassitt (three top 30 guys, and Phegley was one for a long time) into a one-year rental doesn't help much for 2016/17/18 when our core players are all in their collective primes.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:23 AM) ? Every team does the exact same thing. Except for the last five years, we've been worse at doing it than all but one team in baseball. So, if we did the exact same thing, our record, by definition, would be in the middle of the pack every year. But taking more shots at Don Cooper will certainly improve things. You know, it's quite funny how much you dislike Don Cooper, he has been the most loyal employee Jerry Reinsdorf has ever had, along with Harrelson, Nancy Faust and Herm Schneider. Apparently, we should always be loyal and supportive of the coaching staff, everyone BUT Don Cooper, who for some inexplicable reason must have tripped your dog or passed by you when while you were collecting money for the Salvation Army at a storefront at Christmas and flicked his cigarette ashes in your bin.

QUOTE (MEANS @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:19 AM) Carrol up, Noesi DFA'd Pitchfork crowd....not pacified in the least. (Although we have proven one thing, that we can rehabilitate guys like Humber and Noesi, to a point...only to dump them for nothing in return but the loss of that valuable playing time and experience which SHOULD have gone to a long-term solution from the minors but couldn't since there was nobody ready in the minors.") Shudders thinking of Carroll facing the Rangers the way they're going right now, which is probably why they want to protect Rodon after his last outing. "Good luck Jamie, take one for the team, buddy!"

"We want to invest in a full rebuild..." "No, we can't do that because the players we bring up suck (and will be worse than our current players), our minor league preparation sucks, we can't do anything but identify pitchers and Cubans in the first place." "Guess we have to keep investing in aging and expensive free agents and wait for their contracts to become albatrosses...to the point where we have to sell them off for 50 cents on the dollar." "Hmmm...." "Well, we've got Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Abreu, Robertson, Eaton, Garcia, Fulmer...how can you possibly blow up that core when you've got two superstars and possibly another along with two future All-Stars???" "Must be something missing from the equation. Gee, what could it be?" "Let's just ride things out with Flowers, Alexei, Danks, Sanchez, Cabrera....they can't be THIS bad forever. Look at the back of their baseball cards, those numbers mean something." "Look at our winning percentage and attendance since our annual second half collapse in 2010. That means something as well." Crickets. Cue soundtrack to "The Wheels on the Bus Go Round and Round"

9 dead, include a State Senator/pastor.... Being labelled by the FBI as a "hate crime" already. http://news.yahoo.com/shooting-downtown-ch...-031543897.html http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/18/us/charlesto...ting/index.html This one has a video freeze frame of the suspect.

That and the fact that most MLB hitters fail to get on base at least 65% of the time...if we had Billy Hamilton and he struck out or bunted into an out, we'd be complaining about that, too. At least LaRoche can legitimately tie the game there with one swing, which is better than most of our current line-up.

We might as well be upset we didn't bring in LaRussa or Leyland. That had about the same probability of happening as Maddon, which was essentially zero....unless JR was willing to break with policy and pay his manager in the top 3-5 in terms of salaries. Come to think of it, this is one area you can say the White Sox have been cheaper, if not cheap, compared to the Bulls especially. Why, I have no idea. Control? Easier to get former players to coach/manage for less money? On the other hand, Don Cooper has one of the highest, if not #1 overall, pitching coach salaries in baseball. Some perceive him to be an in-house "spy" loyal to only JR and the organization, and not to whoever's managing the team. That's not the best structure in the world...a house divided against itself cannot stand.

In all fairness, there are lots of guys like Dunn, LaRoche and David Ortiz out there. When you do something successfully for most of your career and then you reach your mid 30's, it's probably too late to change your approach...and certainly not in the middle of a season. Because something deep down tells you that if you're getting paid to hit homers and drive in runs but turn yourself into Joe Mauer, then you're not doing your job. It's one thing to think about hitting the ball hard and back up the middle, but another thing that works against these 1B/DH guys is the fact that they don't have the speed to leg out base hits in that direction, either. How many times did we watch Crede, Thome, AJ, Dye or Konerko hit into double plays in their time with the Sox? None of those guys were "selfish" players either, they were "winning" players with the Sox. The only difference is that when there's so little talent in the line-up offensively, more of the blame will find the 3 outcome/one-dimensional hitters like Dunn and LaRoche. It's human nature, especially with their higher salaries. It's one thing for young guys like Harper or Moustakas to change their approach and start going to the opposite way...even Avi, if he takes too many balls up the middle or to the right side, someone will immediately say he needs to hit 25-35 homers, not 15-18.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 09:10 PM) Actually just in AL Central, Guthrie KC 5.79 and Greene Det 5.82. are worst than Danks. Except Greene's back in the minors and Guthrie is on the verge of losing his spot in the rotation to Blanton/Duffy (DL)/Medlen (DL).

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 09:14 PM) Boston got Balttimore's #3 prospect for Miller at trading deadline last July and he was only a 2 month rental. But Miller was a FA at the end of the year, and not owed 3 years and over $30 million (although, in retrospect, the Orioles would have been better off not losing him right away).

Schwarber, Bryant and Russell combined tonight: 16 AB, 6 runs scored, 8 hits, triple (Schwarber), two homers (Bryant, grand slam and Russell), 9 RBI's That's one entire week for the White Sox. And that's without getting much of anything from Soler in the last month or so (now on the DL).

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 09:05 PM) Yes on all except Putnam and Petricka. Who the hell would want them?? They are bodies, nothing else. Have you looked at Putnam's strikeout to IP ratio recently? Not every team is like the Royals, where they have Hochevar, Frasor, Madson, Medlen, Herrera, Wade Davis and Holland for RH pitching depth. If anything, even KC could use Duke, because they're not 100% convinced Morales is the answer from the LH side.

The one thing KW is good at is bellicose bluster, which is at least symbolically helpful. When Hahn speaks, it's more like he's explaining the advantages of a merger between Netflix and Alibaba for proving streaming content in the Chinese mobiles devices market. Someone called him Rick Yawn. As much as KW and Ozzie were a combustible mixture, they were entertaining at least, and sports are about providing an escape for the fans. Right now, if you're the average 9 to 5 Joe the Plumber type, your life is being made even more vexing by the White Sox. Like Flash Tizzle said, at some point....you're wondering what it will take, a no hitter...how many innings in a row they can go without scoring, how bad can Danks/Cabrera/Sanchez/Flowers/Noesi be without any changes taking place. After a game like tonight, it's that whole idiotic "well, they fought back at the end...they gave it the 'ol college try...they didn't give up or get shut out...Danksie battled his butt off out there." Well, all those things might be true, but they're not going to build momentum for tomorrow, and every start that Danks takes up from this point is one that could be going to an Erik Johnson or Beck that will actually have an effect on the future of this organization and its ability to compete for a playoff spot.

QUOTE (harkness @ Jun 17, 2015 -> 08:54 PM) Robin we're bad in the 1st Were also bad in the rest of the innings also. Oh, it was 30 innings in a row that the White Sox hadn't scored. That streak was broken. PROGRESS!!! I thought it was 28 but forgot we hit in the 9th inning the last two nights in Pittsburgh.

Well, exactly 7 years ago, we beat the Pirates 16-5 (Nate Snell took the loss) and were leading the AL Central by 4 games. Dye, Cabrera, Thome and Crede all homered. Remember when we could actually hit home runs, especially at USCF? 39-32 record.