caulfield12

LOL at Avi Garcia DHing and hitting 9th. Because of his "great forward speed" once he gets going. MUST.HAVE.FAST.GUY.AT.BOTTOM. Points for line-up creativity. Saladino's "hot streak" wasn't that sustainable after the Mets' series. Guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Tigers lose, Zimmermann continues to struggle with his stuff. With a Sox win, Indians' loss and also a loss by KC...you'd have a pretty remarkable (considering how they all arrived at that spot) three way tie for 2nd at 2 1/2 games GB. Three teams at 1 game over (KC would have a seven game losing streak) and the Indians at 6 over.

Okay, Jason Coats. That's how much I have paid attention to him as a prospect, don't even know his name clearly. Five days ago, he was a savior, along with Hayes. Now we need Justin Morneau, who's more likely to have a swing akin to Kendry Morales and Stephen Drew after sitting for so long in 2014. Plus, NL West to AL Central. Big change in difficulty. Ask Cueto and Shark.

It's like the Braves trading Teheran. They want the equivalent hitter and then prospects...so, let's say, Ozuna with the Marlins as the centerpiece, then pieces. But you absolutely have to hit on those MLB-ready pieces (see Avi Garcia/Davidson/Nestor Molina NOT being hits). Another example is the Santiago for Eaton deal (Eaton had a bad rep already with AZ's veterans and AJ Pollock was coming up behind him, perceived to have more overall upside at the time, barring injuries.)

The Astros' farm system is 10X better than ours. Just from last season's first four draft picks alone...they would be better. They also only have four teams in that division, although the other 3 are LAA, Seattle and Texas, very much spending like "large market" teams for sure. In the ALC, you've only got the Tigers spending crazy amounts, and the Royals have pushed their payroll to the upper limits and it's still barely in the Top Half. With the Astros, it all comes down to starting pitching. Keuchel has regressed a lot and Kazmir's gone. They've traded away from pretty good pitching talent to get guys like Giles and Carlos Gomez. I think there was one more deal that cost them a lot of pitching depth in there somewhere. And the bullpen has been a weakness as well. Plus WAY too many K's in that starting line-up, although Springer/Altuve/Correa is as good a young trio/core as any team's.

Or Brian Anderson, although Anderson was lacking in work ethic and just had a terrible swing mechanics-wise. Fields as well...could never even hit an above average fastball after 2007 and ONE memorable spring training. It feels like they were very patient with Trayce Thompson and less so with Marcus Semien, Micah Johnson and Carlos Sanchez (because of a positional need at the big league level). Saladino, because of his own performance and health issues...he had a ton of time in the minors as well. Hawkins being pushed like they did remains dubious, though. Otoh, guys like Borchard and Viciedo, that they clearly saw flaws in...didn't get moved nearly as quickly as many wanted. Viciedo was being projected by many scouts to be ready to make an immediate impact in 2009, and he didn't really have his full rookie season until 2012. Went through all those positional changes (same thing happened with Beckham at the big league level and Marcus Semien as well.)

All of the love for Dan Coat died in less than 10 AB's?

http://www.businessinsider.com/major-leagu...payrolls-2016-4 The White Sox are 16th as of Opening Day in payroll. Statistically, the odds of making it to the playoffs if you're not in the top half are QUITE significant. Even if it's only by ONE place.

Then we should just close this thread. Only "insiders" or beat writers or members of the team/front office can really offer an informed opinion here, so what's the point of talking about it? We should just say "Robin Ventura is God" until he no longer holds the position, because that's what it amounts to. The problem, though, is since all managers are at the very least...former minor league players (with major league affiliated teams), then only those people should be able to talk about managing, right? Does a rudimentary knowledge of saber statistics mean we can all be scouts or make assessments on players or the draft this week? According to all the defensive ratings available now, we don't even need the eye test or to casually watch the games, essentially. So what is anyone actually qualified to discuss on this board?

Jeff Passan suggested he's available for trade...that other GM's have already been enquiring. That's not newsworthy? Are there any other starting pitchers with 97-100 MPH fastballs that are available right now that you know of? Eovaldi clearly isn't on the market anymore, from all reports. Just like you can't teach speed, you also can't teach "stuff" either. Even Adam Jones was complimentary about his physical tools and compared him to Pedro Martinez. It's close-minded thinking that has the Sox in this quandary in the first place.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...-story,amp.html White Sox's hierarchy (here's a shocker!) still believes in this team...

Apparently having the fifth worst record in baseball during his tenure and losing records against the Twins, Indians, Royals and Tigers isn't good enough...is it really a "shocker" to both Hahn and KW that generally you should have a .500 record or above (within the division) in order to win the AL Central??? Collapses in September, 2012, the entire 2013 season, early 2015 and May, 2016 clearly aren't evidence enough. He's likely to go on and become a HoF manager, well, because other HoF managers at some point early in their careers also managed teams "lacking in talent." I put that in quotes because I'm not sure it's altogether fair to assert all these Sox teams have been talentless.

Ummm...since we're already committing to Shields for 2 2/3rd's years, and Shields was a respected mentor to Ventura in 2013/14, who obviously needs a fresh start with another organization, and then you have the "buy low/sell high" idea at play here as well, why is it any worse than trading Carson Fulmer for Jay Bruce? The upside is a lot higher with this type of move than bringing some random LH NL slugger to the White Sox and overpaying in the process. And since (Robin) Ventura is the master of controlling the clubhouse, nothing could possibly go wrong. Besides, if you can't beat the Royals, why not "join" them by adding some to your team....we already brought on board two ex-Tigers in Avila and Austin Jackson. Plus, it would add to all kinds of confusion in the game threads. WHICH Ventura is he talking about???

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/thompsons-hom...55743--mlb.html I blame GreenSox for this. http://m.mlb.com/video/v788811483/collad-t...a-walkoff-homer

Jeff Passan suggests he's currently on the trading block. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-reason-wh...920349-mlb.html He would solve a lot of the bullpen problems...and it would be truly entertaining having him be teammates with Lawrie and Sale. Wonder what Dayton Moore's asking price for him is after this latest incident? Or better than Bruce, let's go with Puig and Ventura and have the most combustible dugout in recent memory. Ventura (Robin) should be able to handle it, no problemo, right?

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/05/23/ric...with-white-sox/ Fluff piece, but makes me feel a bit better about Renteria and his ability to manage this club.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/05/23/ric...with-white-sox/

Who you crappin'? What head coach is going to successfully get them to buy into his vision? Phil Jackson? It's certainly not going to be Fred Hoiberg after last season.

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2016/6/7/11876...7858.1463293193 This also happens to be the rare offseason when all of the big free agent deals are working out pretty darned well, other than Heyward and Upton. That's usually not the case. Fwiw, I would also include Alex Gordon on the list, although the argument for keeping him isn't insignificant from a pr/hometown hero perspective.

Maybe we should convince Ted Turner to buy the White Sox. After all, he saw the talent in both Torre and Bobby Cox, two Hall of Fame managers. What percentage of managers make the HOF, after all? What are the odds of one manager picking two? Of course, the White Sox had two in LaRussa and Leyland and didn't realize it, of course. Just the way the cookie crumbles, I guess. 10) What did Ted Turner do after firing Bobby Cox in 1981 and replacing him with Joe Torre? a) Hired Cox as an anchor for CNN. b) Was so guilt-ridden, he invited Cox to the press conference announcing his dismissal. c) Gave Cox unlimited use of his yacht "Courageous." d) Told Cox he'll bring him back one day only if he enrolls in charm school. B 15) What was a huge factor in convincing Ted Turner to hire Joe Torre as Braves manager in 1981? a) Torre was also a big Civil War buff. b) Rafael Ramirez insisted on it. c) Torre was well-spoken and media-polished. d) Torre's cable connections in New York City. C

You're forgetting Cox, Torre, Leyland, etc. Baseball is a business. It used to be results-oriented. Let's not act like the 2011/12 and 2015 and 2016 teams were completely lacking in talent or expectations. It's easy to say that after the fact, with hindsight. We have had a losing record against all four AL Central teams since 2009. I can understand that with the Tigers and Detroit, but not with the Indians and a rebuilding Twins' organization as well. What I can't understand is the disparity in records head-to-head, and the fact we can almost never win key ALCD games in August and September (which goes back to the Guillen years, too). They've changed almost all of the players other than Sale and Quintana from 4 years ago and are still making the same sorts of mistakes and suffering from the same issues that plagued the team every month except for April, 2016. Right now, that one month seems more like an anomaly than a sea-change or progression in Ventura's managerial ability. We've also had the fifth worse record in the major leagues during his tenure, and almost all of the teams in the bottom 10-12 have changed managers/GM's at least once if not twice during that time. What is it that the White Sox see in Robin Ventura that nobody else does? In the end, it doesn't matter how much the organization believes in him if it's not backed up with results...with another 3rd or 4th place finish comes even less revenue to work with next season, and the downward cycle continues until there is no choice left but to trade Eaton/Sale/Q/Robertson and possibly Rodon. I'm pretty sure very few White Sox fans at that point would continue to support the manager and GM that put them in that position in the first place. JR can do what he likes, it's his team after all, but cutting off your nose to spite your face probably isn't the hallmark of most good businessmen.

Maybe we should have the players all fill out confidential surveys...like in that sabre managing baseball book, The Only Rule Is It Has to Work. Then we can stop the endless speculating and reading between the lines.

Yes, but I suppose it will be belittled because it was an AmeriCorps National Volunteer program as well as hiring/firing summer camp counselors for Youth Volunteers Corps of America. Of course, your argument was the same exact one that Republicans used to attack Obama with in 2008. Community organizer, never had run his own business, law professor but not dean or in charge of a department...so, by your analogy, you would pick H. Ross Perot, Donald Trump, Herman Cain or Carly Fiorina over Obama. (Yes, I realize, a digression, but the point still stands.) And yes, it's not easy. My philosophy was always to give everyone an opportunity and second opportunity and even a third. I thought if I worked harder than everyone else and "empowered them" to make their own decisions and have more autonomy, things would run much more smoothly. That wasn't the case. Sometimes managers can get taken advantage of if they're not strict enough or "treat others how they would like to be treated," because that goes along with the assumption everyone has the same work ethic or attitude/professionalism as you do. Some workers will just clock in for a paycheck and couldn't care less about anything beyond that. Many don't want to take initiative, but demand to be told what to do and don't thrive in ambiguity. I'll just say this...I watched Jeff Banister manage the GreenJackets for 142 games and take essentially the same talent from the year before and win a championship with those players. The guy is a combination of Tywin Lannister, a real hard ass military drill sergeant, but his players loved playing for him because he demanded and commanded their respect, and they truly believed if they bought into his program that it would result in winning and all the sacrifices would have been worth it. He changed the atmosphere in that Rangers' organization nearly overnight. When someone goes through cancer, almost loses a leg, fights their entire life to get to the big leagues just to get a single at-bat (hit off Dan Petry), then you can be sure they understand what it's like to not be one of the most talented players. What it means to struggle and need for your coaching career to pay off, all those years in the minors...for the eventual payoff 20 years later at the big league level. You gain an appreciation for the opportunity going through all those struggles that Ventura will never understand. He's one of the most charismatic people I've ever been around (the other two were both billionaires on our board in KC, Tom Bloch, former CEO of H&R Block and Adele Hall, whose husband was the CEO at Hallmark Cards), relentlessly positive and always supportive of his players. Ned Yost is like that now, and Clint Hurdle with the Pirates, same thing. Not only that, but 20 years ago...he didn't care about statistics at all. The last five years, though, the Pirates totally changed the way the game is played with their shifting/pitching to contact philosophy predicated around strong defense. Fifty year old baseball "rats" adapted and evolved (unlike, say Scioscia). For Hurdle, his career as a manager was on the line if he didn't figure out a better way to get results. I haven't seen very much evidence of that "inventiveness" and creativity with Robin. It's almost 100% by the book. And he figured out how to get the most out of a 17 year old Jose Guillen, who could barely order a McDonald's hamburguesa on his own without help at that time. He took that kid, got him focused and helped get him to become a team leader (especially of the Latin players). Months earlier, he was almost kicked out of the Pirates' system for good because of a violent knife confrontation with another minor leaguer in Bradenton. But Banister saw the good in him and was willing to fight to give him at least another chance.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 05:17 AM) oh good god Brewers, Phillies, Braves, Reds, Padres, Twins, Yankees, Red Sox, Blue Jays. Do you understand talent distribution and how little left handed pitching there is in the majors Duke would get sucked up in a heart beat at his current contract. Back. My back hurts, but that's mostly due to work. Not sure what you're saying here otherwise, because if I don't/can't have sex, I choke my chicken. Are you trying to make a Hawkism relevant in a non-relevant situation? Because that's what it looks like. I also call it spanking the monkey. Of course Jennings isn't special. He still throws 93 from the left side with a semblance of command. He'd get eaten up immediately. (also, no there are not. There are similar, but this one is throws hard, and has command. While there are many that throw harder and have better command, this one is the White Sox, and no one else shall have him) Well, #1, it takes one hit. How about Heathcliff Slocumb from the Red Sox to the Mariners? You remember that one, right? Or Doyle Alexander from the Braves to the Tigers for some prospect named John Smoltz. I'm sure there are more recent examples, but you still don't make sense because #2 OH HEY GUYS, DON'T DO WHAT THE BEST TEAM IN THE MAJORS HAS DONE, THEY'RE THE CUBS, THEY SUCK, WHAT A BUNCH OF WUSSIES #3 this has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I expect him to actually make more pitchers than he has "good." Quintana doesn't have many quotes in the press - understandable. Sale does. Sale said he was trying to cut down on his pitches and would work more towards contact so he can work deeper into games. Is that something he came up with on his own or did he have a heart to heart sit down with Don Cooper on that? So what has Don Cooper done that's so good? I like the guy. When he's the pitching coach for my favorite team, and I haven't seen a thing but a turnstile of pitchers, I'm going to light fires. There are 29 teams in the major leagues. If I had the power to put him on waivers, I would do so to prove a point, but I imagine that, given his contract, there'd be like 4-5 teams who would NOT claim Duke on waivers given his current contract. Thanks for qualifying it as "rookie," so that way you can eliminate Peavy, Sale, Liriano, Jones, Floyd, Thornton, Crain, Myers, and, oh, Will Ohman. The miracle workers for that team were Alex Rios and AJ Pierzynski, because had they posted their normal career numbers, that would have been a 78 win team. --- I'd feel bad not ending this with an ALL HAIL DONALD COOPER Thornton was done the moment Jim Thome touched him up in the 2nd half of 2010...even though he lived on until this day in the big leagues. Forgot Jones, 3 rookies. Considering where he was drafted and his lack of success starting, that has to qualify as another success overall. Crain is an example that supports the Don Cooper Theory of Excellence. (Brett Myers and Liriano do not). And the fact that Jake Peavy could be rehabilitated through a once in a lifetime surgery and come out the other side AND get back Avi/Montas or Iglesias and not have to subsidize any of his salary was a minor Don miracle. (Except for when he faced the Tigers that year). Myers and Ohman? More indictments of KW/Hahn. HAIL HAHN!

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 05:17 AM) oh good god Brewers, Phillies, Braves, Reds, Padres, Twins, Yankees, Red Sox, Blue Jays. Do you understand talent distribution and how little left handed pitching there is in the majors Duke would get sucked up in a heart beat at his current contract. Back. My back hurts, but that's mostly due to work. Not sure what you're saying here otherwise, because if I don't/can't have sex, I choke my chicken. Are you trying to make a Hawkism relevant in a non-relevant situation? Because that's what it looks like. I also call it spanking the monkey. Of course Jennings isn't special. He still throws 93 from the left side with a semblance of command. He'd get eaten up immediately. (also, no there are not. There are similar, but this one is throws hard, and has command. While there are many that throw harder and have better command, this one is the White Sox, and no one else shall have him) Well, #1, it takes one hit. How about Heathcliff Slocumb from the Red Sox to the Mariners? You remember that one, right? Or Doyle Alexander from the Braves to the Tigers for some prospect named John Smoltz. I'm sure there are more recent examples, but you still don't make sense because #2 OH HEY GUYS, DON'T DO WHAT THE BEST TEAM IN THE MAJORS HAS DONE, THEY'RE THE CUBS, THEY SUCK, WHAT A BUNCH OF WUSSIES #3 this has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I expect him to actually make more pitchers than he has "good." Quintana doesn't have many quotes in the press - understandable. Sale does. Sale said he was trying to cut down on his pitches and would work more towards contact so he can work deeper into games. Is that something he came up with on his own or did he have a heart to heart sit down with Don Cooper on that? So what has Don Cooper done that's so good? I like the guy. When he's the pitching coach for my favorite team, and I haven't seen a thing but a turnstile of pitchers, I'm going to light fires. There are 29 teams in the major leagues. If I had the power to put him on waivers, I would do so to prove a point, but I imagine that, given his contract, there'd be like 4-5 teams who would NOT claim Duke on waivers given his current contract. Thanks for qualifying it as "rookie," so that way you can eliminate Peavy, Sale, Liriano, Jones, Floyd, Thornton, Crain, Myers, and, oh, Will Ohman. The miracle workers for that team were Alex Rios and AJ Pierzynski, because had they posted their normal career numbers, that would have been a 78 win team. --- I'd feel bad not ending this with an ALL HAIL DONALD COOPER Thornton was done the moment Jim Thome touched him up in the 2nd half of 2010...even though he lived on until this day in the big leagues. Forgot Jones, 3 rookies. Considering where he was drafted and his lack of success starting, that has to qualify as another success overall. Crain is an example that supports the Don Cooper Theory of Excellence. (Brett Myers and Liriano do not). And the fact that Jake Peavy could be rehabilitated through a once in a lifetime surgery and come out the other side AND get back Avi/Montas or Iglesias and not have to subsidize any of his salary was a minor Don miracle. (Except for when he faced the Tigers that year). Myers and Ohman? More indictments of KW/Hahn. HAIL HAHN!