caulfield12

In Chicago, spending money to bring in superstars has never driven attendance or created additional revenues. It has ALWAYS been having a winning team, and not only a winning team, but one that the fans believe can actually go far in the playoffs. Otherwise, they'll tune out or be afraid to believe in that team, for fear of being disappointed, as we saw in 2012. If nothing else, most White Sox fans know that having 2-3 superstars hasn't equated to having a successful team...it's when all the small/complementary parts come together like 2005, along with solid starting pitching, that true and lasting success is possible. Nobody's going to come out to watch Jimenez/Santana/Garza pitch specifically, but fans would support that team if the addition of one of those pitchers made a 90+ win season possible, along with a deep playoff run. After 2005, it's not enough for White Sox fans unless they have a team capable of advancing deep in the playoffs and winning it all again. To do that, you can't take mostly short-term steps at the cost of long-term fixes/solutions. Hahn is definitely taking the right approach this time. Whether it will work or not, we can't be sure, but the methodical process is the correct one in this situation...especially the idea that the fanbase isn't going to wait 5 years, they need to see results within 2-3 seasons.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 07:36 PM) Baseball needs more GM's like you for Rick Hahn to trade with. Trading cheap #3 cost control starters, to acquire full price #2 starters? Awesome. See Edwin Jackson. See acquiring Nick Swisher at his highest possible value in terms of Sox prospects.

For whatever reason, the Sox have always pummeled fastball dominant pitchers. It's the Chen's who kill us, although Mark Guthrie did a good job of that, too.

Plus, didn't Knight make that infamous comment a long time ago about "if you're being raped, you might as well relax and enjoy it"? He should know to be more careful. Probably bitter about the end of his son's coaching career. Tom Crean would be another guy who's definitely on the ropes at Indiana, and facing an uphill battle without Vonleh to get back to post-season play, with the resurgence of Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota, maybe Illinois and even PSU and Northwestern trending upwards. The only team that's clearly worse for next year is Purdue, and Painter's job will be in jeopardy soon enough with 5-13 finishes and Ronnie Johnson transferring. Alford had 3 NCAA appearances in 8 years at Iowa (1-3 in the tourney after promising Sweet 16's and championship caliber play) and he left after 2007 for New Mexico or he was going to be fired the following year.

It's like the college basketball Top 25. The in-season oscillations don't matter. In the end, it's how you pitch in events like the College World Series, just like Kentucky is playing now. In the end, the best talent usually shows up when it counts, the cream rises to the crop. Regular season games are ONE indicator, but far from the most accurate indicator or barometer. As far as Rodon's signability, Hahn is familiar enough with how Boras operates to properly gauge if pursuing him is worthwhile. With the timeframe in place, the last thing the White Sox can afford is to be pushed back one year from having the best arm available to them as soon as possible to plug into that rotation and make it playoff caliber.

Because you don't sign #2 starters at peak value, the risk is too high with pitchers. You consider going after aces in unique situations, like Tanaka or through the draft, or by acquiring low level prospects with the ABILITY to be 2's, but you don't buy them for a premium. We have the best pitching coach in the game, we've already turned Buerhle, Loiaza, Contreras, Floyd, Danks, Humber, John Danks and Quintana into #2 quality starters or better (at different points in their careers, or at least for stretches) and yet paid very little or nothing to acquire most of them. For all we know, Paulino could be the next. Or Johnson. Or Beck. Definitely, the college pitcher we select in June will be projected to have a 1 ceiling, 2 at the worst.

I can just see Rick Hahn worrying himself sick to death right now....probably can't even go out to eat lunch, wondering if Quintana's a 2 or a 3 on the future White Sox playoff team/s. You need 3 quality starters and an ace. Liriano wasn't even good enough for our rotation in late 2012 but he's a 1 for Pittsburgh. Jimenez, essentially, was a 2 for the Indians but is considered by most now to be a 3/4 guy.

Viciedo will probably the next answer at catcher, lol. He has the perfect frame (well, maybe a bit short) and arm for it.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 11:16 AM) Ucla is still the premier west coast program. The right coach could make it a monster. Pretty much. Stanford might be back, although Dawkins was close to getting fired, maybe they've finally turned the corner. And there's always a lot of talent and potential with Oregon and Washington, but nothing compares to UCLA and USC...even with SD State and New Mexico also making inroads, along with Colorado. Gonzaga will always be perceived as a mid-major. That said, Arizona has become the quasi-UCLA of the last 20 years or so, well, ever since Lute Olson left Iowa in the early 80's and came across Steve Kerr....so actually about 30 years.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 11:12 AM) The reality is that Hahn probably negotiated all of those extensions that you are referring to. He has been the White Sox contract guy for years. The team got below market extensions from that entire list of pitchers, which exactly what was done with Sale and Quintana. But he also knows he probably doesn't have the luxury of adding another $14 million pitching salary unless he can get Danks off the books...unless he really wants to go cheaper at catcher, cobble together DH in a rotating fashion, etc. With Hanley Ramirez being the only huge impact SS, and Hanley being a bit of a question mark injury-wise at that position versus 3B, there are a lot of variables at play. We're probably not going to join that bidding war anyway. Ultimately, if Carlos Sanchez and Semien are going to be your middle infield in the not so distant future, you're going to need to pick up from more production from catcher (like when AJ was here) and that DH spot. Semien can probably hold his own as a league average 2B (offensively), but Sanchez, that's pretty doubtful. Of course, they could always sign Morales, that's a lot more likely and short-term than giving Colby Rasmus $90-120 million.

Because all former football players flame out in the Sox organization, lol. I think 25% of it is having another young Cuban on the bench...and the fact that there's nothing to lose, maybe they simply wanted Flowers to know "he's the guy" until he isn't. If he's looking over his shoulder at Phegley's AAA stats again, then he's not going to make it. Or if he keeps suffering these lingering injuries because of his large size, then you can't have Nieto starting more than once every seven to ten days and you simply don't have the luxury with Konerko on the roster of carrying 3 catchers, either, since there are 3 1B/DH's...at least until Dunn's gone.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 10:57 AM) I disagree with it. For one thing, they are only counting major league regular season pitches, except for Tanaka. Why wouldn't the pitches he threw in college or HS and the minor leagues count? Pitchers are time bombs that will explode. IMO, the guys who have shown they can throw a lot of pitches and not get injured is more of a positive than strike against. All these guys get physicals when they sign. If 20,000 pitches showed a ton of wear and tear, the team would walk away. And when you get older, other parts of your body usually become a little more injury prone, which in itself can cause you to miss time, not to mention setting yourself up with a more serious injury by compensating for the other not so serious one. And that is not even counting what father time naturally does to one's skills. IMO, Scherzer's advanced age is more of a red flag than his total pitches is a go sign. Except Scherzer is not Captain Cheeseburger. He's more of an athlete, like Greinke (and yes, I realize for his size, CC still manages to move around a lot better than you'd expect). He takes extremely good care of himself...maybe not Nolan Ryan-like obsessive about training and conditioning, but he's known for being proactive. I do agree eight years is crazy for a pitcher. Even with Verlander last year, it already looked like he was losing his invincibility with all the rumors out there about diminished velocity from him and King Felix.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 10:12 AM) Anyone think the rangers would trade for Alexei and move him to 2B? Just throwing s*** against the wall to see what sticks. Andrus has supposedly been having pain in his throwing elbow, but he just signed that huge contract. You're not going to bring in Ramirez for 2 years...unless you're planning on making him a utility infielder, because there's no way they plan on blocking Profar again.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 10:46 AM) I don't necessarily believe that Quintana is a #2 starter, but frankly, a mid-rotation starter doesn't put them over the top and they have a lot of younger or cheaper pitchers that they want to see pitch. You can't do that if you bring in said pitcher, and it stunts the development of those other pitchers. The next argument is that Paulino as the 5th is stunting the development of Beck at the major league level...because if he has to wait until 2015 to pitch in the majors, that will put the rebuild off another year, because 90% of rookie pitchers go through growing pains.

LOL... Because they might not even need a mid-rotation starter in 2015, if Johnson and Danks both pitch according to expectations. Hopefully Hahn learned from watching KW get consumed with ballooning the payroll with the salaries of Javy, Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras and Garland in 2006 (along with McCarthy as the 6th) that there's no GUARANTEE of anything in baseball. The major point is that the White Sox have the flexibility of watching Johnson, Danks, Paulino, Beck and their #3 draft pick in June and then...and only then, will they know if they need to add one more piece to the rotation from outside the organization. With all the money chasing after someone like Scherzer, it guarantees that there will be more bargains available on the pitching market if the Sox are willing to be patient and wait. The fact of the matter is that catcher, replacing Dunn (LHH) and possibly Alexei Ramirez should be the biggest priorities. There's at least a 50/50 chance that we can solve the SS situation internally, too. The first two, we don't have anything on the horizon at the moment, unless Conor Gillaspie has an amazing breakout season and hits 20+ homers. On the other hand, it's quite easy to imagine signing Kendrys Morales in June/July after Dunn is traded, and not forfeiting the draft pick.

FoxSports.com's reported offer of six years and $144 million would make Scherzer among the highest-paid pitchers in baseball – not to mention the second oldest of those with $127 million-plus deals. He's 29 now, turns 30 in July and only rotation-mate Justin Verlander (30) got his $100 million-plus more wizened. When he signed, Zack Greinke was almost a year from his 30th birthday, Johan Santana just shy of his 29th. CC Sabathia and Cole Hamels were 28, Matt Cain 27, Clayton Kershaw and Felix Hernandez 26, and Masahiro Tanaka 25. Enormous pitching contracts that encompass lots of years and feature a high average annual value are the domain of young men, and Scherzer's age plays against him. Of course, he and agent Scott Boras can argue his wear and tear pales compared to those peers and thus positions him in the proper place to seek more. When Kershaw signed his seven-year, $215 million deal, he did so with 18,643 regular-season pitches thrown. That's on the low side. Hernandez got seven years despite 24,872 pitches, Verlander seven with 25,424, Sabathia seven after 26,252. Scherzer's total after six major league seasons: 17,316. Here's the truth: If Scherzer is healthy – and the Tigers wouldn't have offered him what they did if he weren't – a six-year, $144 million for a pitcher coming off a Cy Young season and entering free agency with a little more than 20,000 pitches after this season simply isn't a deal to which Boras or one of his clients will agree. It's stupid money. Insane money. Untoward money. It's not the market, though, not when $9 billion course through the game and the players seek their rightful share of it. Hamels got $144 million over six years in July 2012 with 20,069 pitches thrown. Los Angeles gave Greinke $147 million over six, plus an opt-out, in December 2012 as he approached his 24,000th pitch. And Tanaka, whose pitch count is horrifying to even consider, scored seven years, $155 million and an opt-out. The ceiling is now Kershaw. Boras doesn't traffic in floors. Even if the intent wasn't to make it personal, the wording of the Tigers' statement ensured it came off that way. One general manager posited the only rational explanation behind Dombrowski releasing it was to prevent Boras from going to ownership and negotiating a deal himself, which is wildly cynical and makes complete sense considering his history of goading the Tigers into guaranteeing nearly $350 million to Pudge Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez and Prince Fielder.

As Passan pointed out though, one thing in Scherzer's favor is his lower amount of total pitches/workload than those previous 7-8 pitchers with the huge workloads. And he was arguably the best pitcher in the AL the last two months of the 2012 season until he started getting a little ouchy, but he pitched through it. So roughly 1 1/2 seasons now of dominance, not just one.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 10:01 AM) OK, makes a lot of sense. I don't think Kolek's is much to be concerned with, but that's just me. I have also read what you say about the Marlins and how they aren't afraid to draft hs pitchers. After you posted about Aiken, I looked up videos and that kid is beyond impressive for his age. If I were Hahn and Aiken was available, he would be the third pick. His curve ball just impressed the s*** right out of me. Nice thing is he will likely add some velocity to his fastball with age. I just hope Aiken takes the money and get his professional baseball career started instead of going to college. That's the last I heard as well. Fine with me, I'll take the 18 yo southpaw ( Aiken) at #3. Sounds like Gio Gonzalez without the body frame/durability questions coming into the draft.

That's why we need to hit it on the head with the college pitchers in June... It's doubtful that Beck ever becomes a 2 at the major league level, and the price keeps going up and up for free agents, so the only true source of #2 starters for 75% of MLB is either through the draft or getting lucky with a Japanese/Korean/Cuban pitcher. Time will tell with Tanaka, but with the huge amount of mileage already on his arm, I think we're going to be glad in the end we didn't end up winning that bidding war. Just a hunch. He's reliant on a ton of movement more than velocity/explosiveness (Darvish), so just have a feeling he might do pretty well for a couple of seasons but that contract will more than likely end up like Dice K's. New York can be the most unforgiving place to pitch, everyone knows that, and he's going to be under the microscope from the first week of the season, with all of the money they've invested in free agents to get back to a competitive level again this year.

Whatever happens, there shouldn't be any excuses for Flowers and/or Phegley if they can't cut it this year. It's not like they both haven't been presented with plentiful opportunities to take the bull by the horns and run with it.

I'm not sure if they're on the list (surely not), but I would take Gourriel and Despaigne, too. HAHA.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Mar 25, 2014 -> 06:32 AM) Sherzer = the epitome of the greedy athlete. Boras is his advisor, and I'm sure he's telling him that he could get another $50-75 million if he wins the Cy Young this season. It's all about the fact that while it's a hell of a contract, he's still leaving a lot of money on the table if he has another year like the last two. Of course, there's also a huge risk of injury. It's not quite like the Juan Gonzalez situation in Detroit.

QUOTE (beautox @ Mar 24, 2014 -> 11:18 PM) I think Q is a #2 all around and there aren't many staffs in baseball that wouldn't love to have him, especially with his recent contract extension. My big prediction is that Q will actually out pitch Sale this year to the tune of a 6WAR season and a CY. Wow. That's quite a limb you are out there on.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Mar 24, 2014 -> 09:54 PM) I thought he would when we signed him. Only had to beat out AAAA catchers, and working out a trade with Rizzo figured to be near impossible (Hahn confirmed that today). Congrats to the young man. Drafted.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Mar 24, 2014 -> 10:58 PM) Yeah, I know he's supposed to be here VEISHEA weekend. I hope he likes T.I. The rapper?