caulfield12

http://www.bleachernation.com/2014/10/30/t...ering-troubles/ Unlikely that a player would go to the Rays...as this possible tampering situation is MUCH under much different circumstances

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Oct 31, 2014 -> 05:48 AM) Playoff-experienced leadership? This team need talent/production, not some personality attribute you're overhyping cause the World Series just ended. And LaRoche has played in 17 postseason games in his 11 year career. I wouldn't call that a ton of experience. Other than Ramirez and Danks, we don't have anyone who has experienced the playoffs as a member of the White Sox. Seven years is now quite far removed from 2008...it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a playoff veteran, but that helps when you have it on your resume. Other than Adam Eaton, there aren't many leaders on this team. With Konerko finally gone, hopefully Sale and Abreu will start to take on more of that responsibility. We also don't have a manager who has ever made it. That's one of the pluses that hiring guys like Francona and Maddon provides. I don't know if Bill James would agree with the idea of "overhyping" something just because it's not measurable or easily quantifiable.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 09:54 PM) I hope the Cubs get whacked pretty good on this. They have embarrassed and left a good man hanging in the breeze in Renteria. I hope the new commish whacks the Cubs silly. They ought to give the Rays a choice of one player off their current 40 man roster and two minor leaguers. That would be crazy to lose a stud player over a manager. MLB is too desperate for the Cubs to win the World Series finally to force them to give up Bryant/Soler/Russell/Rizzo/Castro/Arrieta. It will wind up being someone more along the lines of Alcantara, if they do get nailed for tampering.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 08:50 AM) Well SOA has officially lost me. The show is now just about proving what an asshole Jax Teller is. They oughta just shoot everyone and end the Redwood Originals. Oh and the thing with O'Leary is set up for the prequel which could be really good.....sigh http://sonsofanarchy.wikia.com/wiki/Renee_O%27Leary_Egan Does that mean we have to watch this woman again...?

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 31, 2014 -> 12:00 AM) Trade who? He's affordable, the Jays aren't going to give him up for nothing. What's the difference between him and Adam Laroche, for example, the next 2 years? Nothing except Lind is younger and will cost SOME amount or level of talent to acquire. OTOH, this team needs some playoff-experienced veteran leadership, and LaRoche checks off that particular box.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 10:01 PM) I guess we're at the stage now in baseball they make excuses for pitchers who suck in the postseason who have a good track record, blaming innings. It's more of the "blame the manager, pitching coach" game than blame the players for anything. I mean, my gawd, Peavy was trash, simply trash in his last start. I mean he gets 12 million a year next year. I guess we're assuming his arm will be all fresh up until the postseason. I mean seriously his pitches screamed "HIT ME" at the top of their lungs vs. KCR. Isn't that exactly what we always heard was the reason why the 2006 White Sox fell apart in the second half...overwork/overuse in the 2005 postseason, when they went 11-1? Shields has pitched those high stress/playoff innings consistently over the last 7-8 years. So if it's an excuse for the 2006 starting staff (based on just one year or one additional World Baseball Classic), then it's certainly applicable to Shields. Keep in mind, the Royals played 15 additional games this postseason, not a mere 12...so Shields had one or two more starts than most of our starters that year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 08:02 PM) No. It's considered what you have to pay for a middle rotation pitcher. Which is why I have no interest in paying full price for free agents with this team right now. If a team like Cleveland had him this year, that probably would put them in the playoffs and that playoff appearance could easily be worth $100 million+ to the franchise. The Royals run this year will probably be worth more than that to them. Or the Mariners...who already spent a TON of money on Cano, but ended up short one starting pitcher when Felix, Iwakuma, Elias and Paxton wore down the final month for different reasons. Chris Young, too. FWIW, Chris Young is one of those 10-15 veteran third tier (behind Peavy/Liriano/Volquez/Hammel, etc.) pitchers who will be available to the White Sox and may or may not be worth the money...with his Safeco statistics making him more attractive than what he's likely to provide for a team in a less-friendlier park for pitchers. With Walker coming fast, and healthy, they can't afford to pay him to be an expensive insurance policy.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 07:59 PM) Is 17 to 20 million considered cheap now? I'm asking in a serious tone. Cause if I'm a scout ... the James Shields that pitched this postseason was a Jeremie Guthrie clone. He was not the old James Shields that is for sure. Because he: 1) Pitched a career high in innings (I think it was 257), and has been at 200+ every year since 2008...which, as you know from Mark Buehrle's career, it's a VERY VERY select group who have consistently been able to put up 200 innings for two or three consecutive years, let alone seven. 2) ...had a kidney stone pass during the series with BALT. 3) ...faced a very dangerous offense in the Orioles, probably the best in baseball. Yes, a 6+ ERA for the post-season is unacceptable, but it's not going to prevent Jake Peavy from getting $10-12 million per year from someone in 2015, and it's not going to prevent Shields from getting $80-110 million and 4-5 years. It MIGHT have clipped his years down from 5 to 4 and overall contract from the $100+ million territory he was shooting for (Greinke's $147 million deal with LAD), but he won't be hurting financially.

The current class of Casey Janssen, David Robertson, Francisco Rodriguez, Sergio Romo, Rafael Soriano, and Koji Uehara doesn't have anyone you can say with 100% certainty that they will fare better than Addison Reed even. Probably Robertson, but is that worth $28-32 million for two years? Romo's attractive, but totally unproven in the AL. Uehara...at his age, you just wonder what he has left. Janssen's interesting, but also expensive. You never know if you're going to end up with the "good" or "bad" Grilli, Rodney, Nathan or Frieri, for example. Ten years ago, nobody would have predicted that Santiago Casilla at his age would be a very effective closer. It has been this way for years...there are 4-6 "elite" closers and the rest are pretty much interchangeable. It's ESPN Insider, but there was an article predicting "who will be the next Wade Davis?" and Lincecum's name led the list (article by Petriello)...not sure what other names he picked, but they were all "failed" starters. Of course, Lincecum at $18 million as a starter (2015 contract) is worth only $6-9 million when converted into an "elite" 7th-8th inning guy like Davis.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 05:43 PM) Time to delete a few of Balta's posts Any post about "preseason, Ventura or preparation" or counter-response from Dick Allen would cut it back down to 75-80,000.

QUOTE (LDF @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 06:35 PM) yessss I totally, totally agree with this. any thoughts on Josh Johnson??? Too many injuries. We already tried this with Tommie Hanson last year.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 05:49 PM) Ozzie isn't coaching because if he does it voids his guaranteed(good) money from the Marlins. It isn't because Ozzie is blackballed. Let's just put it this way. If he was really a hot commodity, then another team would offer him a better AAV than his Marlins' deal and it wouldn't matter, like the Maddon situation, where he's going to be bumped up from $2 million to roughly $5 million per season. Any team crazy enough to offer him a deal would be asking him to take a pay cut, presumably.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 05:11 PM) I don't think the AL East was all that tough this year, and many pundits predicted the Rays to make the playoffs. I think they had more talent than the Sox, but according to some media, talent isn't necessary if Joe Maddon is around. As Evan Longoria goes...so goes the Rays.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 05:06 PM) I really would hate to go after Markakis after reading the eerie similarities between him and De Aza on this board. I can see an outfield upgrade via trade. He would fit the Giants or Royals a lot better...especially if Morse can't play LF anymore. Substitute Markakis for Aoki and bring in a more dangerous hitter for Butler (or effective platoon like the A's can put out there) and that's a much more potent line-up. (Do the Royals view Dyson as a part-time or full-time player, that's the question, going forward). The Cardinals as well, now that their starting OF becomes Holliday/Jay/Grichuk with very little depth. Depends on how high they are on Grichuk as a long-term solution. Those three teams will definitely be kicking the tires on Nelson Cruz, as well.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 05:12 PM) ::Drops Mic:: Okay Conway Twitty version of Patrick Stewart...and no as cool as Heisenberg.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 01:36 PM) They were going to pay Girardi the same last year, and historic never came about. I know he doesn't write the headlines, but Wittenmeyer, the guy who has spent the past year or so slamming the Cubs, talking and writing about how they have no money and will be terrible for years wrote earlier that the Cubs are by far the best fit for Maddon. Why would a team with no money who will be terrible for years be the best fit, by far, for a manager in his 60s, when there are several teams that would sign him up? I don't know if you live in the Chicago area or not, but if you do, just turn on the local news tonight or watch Kaplan on CSN, or read any of the articles and the headlines...it is nothing that we haven't seen several times before. Maybe this time it really happens. I tend to doubt it. Joe Maddon winning pct. .517 Ozzie Guillen White Sox winning pct. 524 (That's for Greg) And yet one could get probably 18-20 head managing jobs in baseball and the other would be EXTREMELY lucky to get a 1st or 3rd base coaches' job. Now why is that?

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 04:23 PM) Career relief pitchers are generally inconsistent. The best thing is to develop your own, and even use future starters as relievers for a year or 2. For sure, going out and buying that "proven closer" is a game for fools. Sox will probably have to buy 1 reliever this year, probably from the left side, and pray. But Petricka and PUtnam were virtual rookies, Guerra's a good reliver. Carroll could so well. Webb wasn't very effective, but he was a rookie as well. Bassitt might do relief work this year as well. That guy we got for Dunn might make a run for a spot in teh pen too. Sanburn

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 10:54 AM) I don't disagree with you at all. In some ways that's the point I was trying to make - start winning in order to avoid becoming irrelevant. I have very vivid memories of the mid to late 80s when the Cubs were super popular (even though they weren't winning, they were still very popular vis-a-vis Harry Caray) and the Sox were not winning and how completely irrelevant the team seemed back then. It wasn't a particularly pleasant period to be a Sox fan, and I would really like to avoid going back to that type of environment, if at all possible. At least back then there was the new stadium to look forward to, as well as Thomas/Ventura/McDowell/Fernandez/Sosa/Alvarez/Bere/Lance Johnson, etc. Fun times. Except for 2005, 1990 was my favorite all-time Sox season...2000 probably ranking third.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 10:34 AM) The problem is that velocity does NOT improve with age. It typically peaks around age 22 and declines steadily. Ventura will have to learn how to be as good as Quintana as he loses velocity on his fastball. Quintana on the other hand, is already Quintana. As for the Proven Ace™ by throwing some good games in the postseason: this is simply bad logic, caulfield. How do you know that Quintana "isn't the type?" He's never been IN the postseason. Also, over the relatively small number of post-season careers that comprise large enough samples to be predictive, they ALL regress to career averages. Ventura's "ballsy" performance is comendable, but simply NOT predictive. And finally: Taking Duffy over Quintana is insanity. Next someone will say that Bumgarner's sample in the post-season isn't large enough...that it's the equivalent of saying David Ortiz is "clutch."

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 09:56 AM) You also can't teach people how to pitch and command like Quintana. Plus Ventura wouldn't be the first pitcher with huge velocity to suddenly fall off or lose control and command of his stuff, especially with the innings jump he had this year. I really like Ventura moving forward too, but you just can't make the assertions you are at this point in his career. I also don't agree with your argument that Quintana couldn't be an ace for a team moving forward. You simply can't say that. All you can do is point to how successful he's been up to this point, which is to say he's been very good and is still seemingly improving. If you gave him the kind of defense the Royals have, his ERA might drop below 3. And yet, in your heart of hearts, you would never start Quintana over Ventura in a must-win World Series game for the White Sox.

The Royals never had any elite hitters. Gordon, as a combination package offensively and defensively, is close to elite. Same with Sal Perez, if he's not starting 143 games a season and getting worn down.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 09:40 AM) Especially if Shields leaves KC, the gap between the White Sox isn't as large as you might think. If we had the equivalent of Finnegan, Manaea, Lamb and Zimmer, in the upper levels of the minors, I would agree with you. We have Rodon. Then, after that, Montas, who's either 3-4 months away as a reliever or mid 2016 as a starter. Nobody can even predict with 100% certainty that Finnegan won't end up having the best big league career of all the 1st round pitchers drafted in 2015.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 09:33 AM) Which is completely unrelated to the point you were arguing. The Royals were obviously a better team than the White Sox this year. The whole point about pitching rotations was that greg mentioned that the Royals rotation was something that was good enough that it would be a difficult factor for us to surmount going forward. I just wanted to point out that that is not true, that I'm not even sure it's better than OUR rotation, which isn't even good. You could definitely argue that the Royals rotation is better -- you just have to say that depth is more important than peak talent. Our depth sucks and it's a huge issue. But there isn't ANYONE who would take any of the Royals pitchers of either Sale or Quintana. The point is it's arguable either way and therefore they do not have some juggernaut rotation. I would take Ventura over Quintana in a heartbeat because you simply can't teach a 97 MPH average fastball velocity. He has much better stuff and is going to get better and better unless he gets injured, whereas Quintana's already reached pretty close to his peak. I would probably take Duffy over Quintana as well...but it would be VERY close. In the end, Ventura had proven he can be the "ace" in a World Series at his young age already...and Quintana's not the type since his elite run at the very beginning of his career in 2012 where he will consistently put up shutouts or only give up a single run or maybe two.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 09:20 AM) Nobody is taking Danny Duffy over Jose Quintana, get out of here with that. Danny Duffy averages 5 innings a start. That's Hector Santiago territory. Ventura is the #2 and probably the ace moving forward. The Sox have Rodon waiting in the wings too. Are you going to tell me that teams are going to take Danny Duffy over Carlos Rodon? Barring any severe injuries, I feel entirely comfortable saying that the Sox rotation is going to be better - and perhaps significantly so - than the Royals' next year. http://www.faketeams.com/2014/10/7/6932991...duffy-next-year One person agrees with you. Of course, they use the Royals' Defensive Efficiency Rating as 12th (whatever that means) to justify that he will regress because of his SIERA, FIP and FIP+. That's why everyone's frustrated with WAR and ratings for guys like Alex Gordon and Heyward. UZR ratings often don't agree with Defensive Runs Saved, for example. If you looked at Jose Quintana's numbers in 2012 and 2013, the exact same type of article would have been written...and I'm going to guess that the guy who wrote the article has never even watched Duffy pitch a single game, watched how hitters react to his stuff and has never pitched above the middle school level. This guy clearly should be a GM or stock picker, as he has the game of baseball completely figured out....

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 30, 2014 -> 09:13 AM) Frankly, that is a Skip Bayless/Colin Cowherd kind of argument. "Oh, so if you think that's better, WHY ARE THEY GOLFING THEN?" Well because the offense featured quite a few bad hitters this year, the back end of the rotation was really quite bad, and the bullpen was hot garbage all year long, nevermind a mediocre defensive team outside of like 2 positions. There are holes to fill but this is a team that could easily be competing in the very near future (as in 2015). They have 4 of the hardest things to find in the game right now - an elite middle of the order threat, a very good top of the order bat, an ace, and another very, very good starting pitcher. It's much easier to fill in those other areas than it is to fill those 3. Except it's really NOT THAT EASY, especially when you're looking for a LF who can hit AND field and is not on the wrong side of 30 and declining. For example, LF and DH. Once you get past the headliners in Martinez/Ramirez/Sandoval, then you enter the abyss of guys like Markakis, Cabrera, Rasmus, Morse, Butler, Kendrys Morales, Lind, LaRoche, etc. It's a complete crapshoot....predicting what any of them will do. Who really has a clue how Flowers, or Gillapsie, or Avisail will do in 2015, or if Eaton can even stay healthy? If it was easy to find those offensive pieces, then the Mariners would have been in the playoffs last season. There's a very good chance that Viciedo has a better season than half the guys on that list...but does it for another team.