caulfield12

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:54 AM) I still think the SF Giants are a pretty good model...where they were in 2007-2009 seems pretty similar to where we are now...I remember thinking they were a mess, with the Bonds thing coming to a disastrous ending, having Zito on the books for several more years, trading Tim Alderson to Pittsburgh for Freddy Sanchez, etc...they looked very lost...and turned it around very quickly. I don't see why we couldn't pull of the same thing. Two choices. Pull in additional revenue (higher attendance) or spend that money much more wisely. The Giants have a lot more margin for error (Zito) than we've had with Dunn/Danks. They're the "first team" in that market, and they have one of the most picturesque stadiums in all of baseball...

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:36 AM) It was a loaded question. I was waiting for somebody to say Beckham so I could get a good laugh in before work. If we use that $31 million in savings PRODUCTIVELY, yes, you can definitely make the argument: $31 million + Gordon Beckham/Carlos Sanchez at SS + Matt Adams at 1B for the next 5-7 years >>> Ramirez with an albatross contract in 2014 or 2015 + Keppinger/Beckham at 2B + Viciedo/Dunn/???? at 1B. You're free to laugh at that, but we might not be laughing a year or two from now if we don't do something and just sit on all our declining assets until we can't get anything at all back in return for them. Or written another way, Beckham/Sanchez at SS, Chase Utley/Dan Uggla at 2B + Matt Adams at 1B for 5-7 years >>> STANDING PAT

QUOTE (KPBears @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:28 AM) The problem is the Sox don't have any good position players, except for maybe Rios (sorry Dayan fans, I think the guy's a free-swinging hack). I'm still undecided on Santiago and Quintana. The only really good players the Sox have are Sale (who should be untouchable unless there's the baseball equivalent of the Herschel Walker trade offered) and Peavy. I've mentioned before that I like what the Astros are now doing. Before people criticize that, realize that they are really just starting their rebuild. Their current GM is in his 2nd year. Unfortunately for them, they took a few years screwing around before they finally got direction. But he's committed to a plan, and like the Sox, the Astros have the money to keep good players. Instead of wasting a few years, I'd like to see the Sox commit to a complete rebuild now. The team maybe garbage for a while, but if the Sox can go through four or five bad years (like the late 80's) for 20+ years of consistent winning (like 1990 - 2012), I'll take it. As for the fans going away, guess what, the fans are going away regardless, because the Sox are going to be miserable. But the Sox, through WGN and merchandise sales, have revenue sources beyond attendance. And again, I'm confident that JR will spend when the time's right, as he did prior to the 2005 season adding Dye, AJ, and Iguchi (yes, they weren't elite free agents, but they were a lot bigger deals than Keppinger). I'm 98% sure our ComCast deal actually provides us more money per game than the WGN broadcasts, but WGN is available to a much wider audience, so it's a far better marketing tool than a regional sports network. As for Viciedo, he has to be a franchise cornerstone offensively or there's no reason NOT to start rebuilding now, when you look at the status of our minor league system, Dunn/Konerko and the fact that Rios is aging and starting to make some lackadaisical plays in the OF again....I just can't believe the Sox are going to give him a long-term extension. And still would be pretty shocked if they picked up his 2015 option. Peavy is the ONE player on the roster (other than Sale) and to a lesser extent, Santiago/Quintana, with a good amount of trade value. If you keep Peavy, there's zero point in selling off the rest of the team because you're not going to be competitive in either 2013 or 2014. He's worth more to the 2015 team in terms of bringing in future offensive talent and cutting payroll simultaneously. That said, I don't prefer that model because I believe in Viciedo...AND firmly believe we could trade off SOME pieces (like Ramirez/Peavy/Crain/Thornton/Lindstrom...and possibly Reed or Jones), keep all of our starting pitching intact EXCEPT for Peavy, and have at least a 60/40 chance of being competitive offensively in 2014.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:24 AM) The Rockies? When have they won anything? Clearly not "sustained success". Besides, since 2005, where the Sox results have been unacceptable, they still have won a lot more games than the Rockies. The Braves have never done a gut rebuild and have not had 2 consecutive seasons under .500 in 23 years. The Brewers results certainly don't qualify as sustained success either and they have the same record as the White Sox this season. People want the Sox to be the Rays, who btw, haven't won any titles themselves. That took a very long time and a lot of losing to accomplish. This isn't the NBA. You can't totally transform your team in 2 years with a couple of high lottery picks. Okay, the Nationals then.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:08 AM) That all evaporates when the Sox do a White Flag trade and fans plus advertisers leave in droves. If no one is at the park, you can't retain your own players. How do you know you're right this time? Can you guarantee we won't lose 33% of the fanbase anyway if we continue to muddle through three more season with 74-78 win teams that have no realistic chance at the playoffs even with additions at the trade deadline?

QUOTE (Disco72 @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:09 AM) So, to which rebuilds should a potential Sox firesale/rebuild be comparable? Houston? Seattle? Baltimore? I don't see a lot of positive examples no matter which team / market is doing the rebuilding. The Rockies, perhaps. They have the huge advantage in crowds (from a sheer numbers perspective), but we charge a lot more for tickets, parking, concessions...and, as a major market team, much less of our revenue is attendance-dependent. Atlanta Braves, would be another one...going from a long playoff cycle and into a new stadium, peaking, falling off for awhile and then coming back. The post new-stadium Brewers.

Plus, it reinforces the idea they're building around a foundation of younger players like Rizzo, Castro and Mr. Long Hair WR.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 15, 2013 -> 12:30 AM) You know Wise is blah when I would like to see him replaced. I was against bringing him back. As far as Dunn, man, is that so difficult Adam? You are so fricking big n strong all you have to do is hit the ball in the air. Just make contact. You don't have to pull the ball big guy. Peavy was excellent and Flowers gets a key hit now and then. Maybe this year will be good for him and he'll learn how to hit more consistently. I know he stinks but occasionally he raps a big hit. Viciedo ... what a bomb. When the other options are Jordan Danks and Blake Tekotte, the choice about Wise isn't so clear...especially for a manager who prefers veterans he knows what to expect from them. You can't discount Wise's presence in the clubhouse...he was really missed when the Yankees cut him adrift last year.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 14, 2013 -> 10:12 PM) Urban legend It's beginning to remind me of Dewon Day having the best slider in the organization. Or Anderson Gomes the fastest baserunner. Arnie Munoz the best curveball, etc. Felix Diaz the best fastball.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ May 14, 2013 -> 10:33 PM) Because we never went over slot in the draft and had no presence in Latin America. The new CBA has changed everything and the organization is embracing these changes. People need to give it time though. Unfortunately, patience is not a virtue of this board. Also, if you think signing a couple of stopgaps is riskier than rebuilding than I'm at a loss of words. Especially when logic dictates that 3-4 veteran McCann/Utley/Morales/Willingham/Morse type players is 10X better than putting all your eggs in the Greinke/Hamilton/Pujols basket for a team that can't just wildly throw money around with the 6-8 biggest franchises. Not until our ComCast deal starts bringing in a lot more revenue in 2019. Back to 2005...lots of "stopgaps" came into the roster. Would anyone have thought, the day he was acquired, that Dye would be a member of the Sox through 2009? AJ through 2012? Jenks, not self-destructing and even making the big leagues when he was acquired on waivers? Contreras through 2009? Iguchi, who nobody had ever seen and already an established veteran in Japan? That Takatsu would barely last a full year? That Hermanson would be one of the best pitchers in baseball for 4 months that year and then disappear into the abyss...same with Cotts/Politte? The point is, a lot of those "stop gap" guys ended up hanging around a LONG time, maybe too long.

Time to trade Peavy and Reed for the maximum return! (Just joking...but we'll HOPEFULLY NOT return to this topic in late July).

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:41 PM) 2005 is actually a great example. We went into that season without any major holes. We had a complete starting staff with a legitimate prospect in the minors as insurance, a full bullpen top to bottom with veterans who could fit their roles, we brought in a real catcher, a real 2B, picked up a lead-off hitter for the first time in forever, etc. We had starting pitching, a bullpen, offense, defense, power, speed and a mix of veteran leadership and youth. Go into every season like that and, while you're not even guaranteed a playoff spot much less a WS title, you at least have a chance. That team clicked and we won. The 2006 team looked really good too but didn't get it done, but we still had a chance. When you tear everything down and trade everyone then you have no chance, and when you go into the offseason you have to address every aspect of an offense, defense, and a pitching staff, rather than only needing to address a few select areas. And Takatsu as the closer for the first month. A lot of people forget that.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:29 PM) Andy gonzalez leading off in 2007 got Walker no passes. It was always his fault. Erstad, DWise, leading off, if the Sox didn't score it was because of the hitting coach. Psychology. Those fans were still so caught up in the 2005 and 2006 seasons that they were unwilling to accept that the personnel was different. We've struggled for so long now since 2008 that it's just par for the course, especially with Adam Dunn. Fans probably consider it a minor victory of sorts that Rios hasn't remained an albatross contract.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:26 PM) And here come the Rays once again. They looked like a bunch of broke dick dogs 10 days ago. After tonight's win (Matt Moore was filthy after a rough first), they've won 6 in a row and 8 of 10. Anybody know how Wil Myers is doing? I haven't followed any minor league baseball so far. http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?p...&pid=571976 770 OPS. Josh Phegley's seriously outhitting him.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:22 PM) Remember when scoring 4 runs wasn't a big deal? That was awesome. I do remember when Walker was blamed for all the offensive woes, lol. This year, Manto seems to be getting a free pass because of the overall talent level being so low.

They're not going to let Duensing face Viciedo, are they?

QUOTE (fathom @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:18 PM) I assume you didn't see what happened? I won't pick up MLB Extra Innings until June 16th when I am back in the US for six weeks and the internet connection's a lot smoother than here in China. Depends on how the Sox are playing...or if they have brought in any new/interesting players.

Just don't hit into a DP here, Dunn. Wow, can't believe Viciedo having missed so much time is only 4 RBI's behind Dunn (7 HR's, 13 RBI's).

Wow, we actually pulled off a successful sacrifice. What's the world coming to? Okay bullpen, the game is yours to win. And thanks, Mr. Dunn, for helping us to maintain our AL lead in errors committed. Viciedo with 5 walks in a week? Should be AL Player of the Week, haha.

Pitching to Mr. Plouffe this series hasn't worked out so well. FWIW, this is the first time we've been 6.5 GB all year. Pretty important game to win, with Axelrod pitching tmrw and going out to face an upwardly trending Angels team that almost lost their manager last weekend if not for a late late rally against the Astros that prevented them losing 3 in a row.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:05 PM) The anti-rebuilding crowd like to throw out scare tactics like "Astros" and "irrelevancy" while ignoring the fact that the Sox have 1 postseason win since 2006. But to imagine that they couldn't win 90-95 games with our pitching staff (keeping Peavy and maybe adding in Johnson for Axelrod, and not knowing 100% what we have in Danks)....and the additions of McCann, Morales and Utley, that's also impossible for anyone to say with any authority. If you were making the argument coming into 2005 that Dye (coming off a major leg injury), Pods (coming off a down season to follow up rookie year success), Hermanson (total question mark/castoff), AJ (character/attitude issues), Iguchi (KW scouted him by videotape) and El Duque were going to lead the team to the World Series that spring, EVERYONE in the world would have said you were INSANE, you agree? Or coming into 2008, NOBODY was predicting we would have a chance to compete again that year. Or in mid-May of 2010, etc. Or coming into 2012, off the disappointment of 2011.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:00 PM) I think if you want to tear it down, with the state of the farm system, it would be a minimum of 5 years before the Sox were relevant again, and that is drafting pretty well. They were awful for 4 years the last time they did a major rebuild with out much in the cubboard, and got McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez in consecutive drafts. Even they didn't accomplish that "sustained success" that apparently now is a requirement. But they did have a very good run between 1990 and 1994. The problem, as we all know, is what the strike did to the franchise. It's hard to look at that "sustained success" definition and not take something that was completely out of their control into the equation. (Well, some would actually blame Reinsdorf for the strike, partially....which is a different issue but related nevertheless).

Here's a better way of looking at it, perhaps. All these "second tier" teams in the major markets....the Mets, the A's, the Angels and the White Sox, what's the longest their fans have gone along with "rebuilding" projects? (Because comparing the Sox to the Royals, Pirates, Brewers, Astros, Reds, Mariners, etc.) isn't exactly an accurate way of looking at it. The A's are the only ones you could probably make a legit comparison to, and that's because of the stadium issues/attendance...arising out of their unique predicament of being stuck between a (rock) MLB and the Giants (a hard place).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 14, 2013 -> 07:03 PM) Just out of curiosity...has there been any post from an actual woman in this thread? From the tenor of this thread, I can't imagine any woman not getting at least a little bit upset and not even bothering to interject with a response.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 14, 2013 -> 07:06 PM) The money you'd need to spend for those guys would be a bigger gamble than a rebuild. Then they're stuck, because if you look at the Sabathia, Cliff Lee, M. Cabrera etc., deals, more than 60-70% of the time in those big trades "top prospects" turn out to be even less so. Or Freddy Garcia for Olivo/Morse/J. Reed. None of those guys did anything for the M's and all ended up more successful elsewhere...later down the line, particularly Michael Morse. If they DO develop, it usually takes 2-3 years. And Jake Peavy, while very good now, isn't an ace anymore. He's a #2/3 guy for most elite teams. He's not going to get you Alcides Escobar or Juan Segura, like Greinke did.