caulfield12

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 29, 2012 -> 02:06 PM) He has to spin, it's his job. If you haven't, listen to the sound clip. The article isn't a transcript. I've also been following that thread on WSI. I just think in some ways, it's MORE embarassing that the crowds have been pretty horrible in September even when they dumped the controversial dynamic pricing model and finally considered the fact that getting a big home crowd behind them was more important than maximizing revenue... Yeah, some of it's obviously the agony of the recent 1-8 stretch, but that doesn't explain it completely.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Sep 29, 2012 -> 01:33 PM) 2008 was really likable. And it showed on Soxtalk. We were all pretty content with the losses in the playoffs. And that was mostly because: 1) We FINALLY beat our hated rival, the Twins, to get there...the super exciting last 3 "must win" games just to arrive at that point were crazy 2) CQ, Crede and many others were hurt down the stretch, and Swisher had been benched for Wise 3) We knew we wouldn't play well in a Dome or on turf, similar to us having to face the Orioles this year, for example 4) The Rays were one of the best teams in baseball all season and historically were a tough out for the Sox 5) Due to rearranging the rotation down the stretch, we were forced to use Javy early in the post-season

“I don’t think any of them are out there saying I wish there were more people in the ballpark. But, without question, they do notice when there are people in the ballpark and giving them that lift and willing them to win,” Boyer said. “When the crowd is behind you, it gives you that little extra push. It makes a difference.” WHAT?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2012 -> 09:23 AM) First, Kenny Williams is a very good man, I like him a lot. This team's window to win is this season, it's not the time to develop of all things a LF'er at the cost of postseason baseball. Gee. Also not the time to develop..... 1) Reed and Nathan Jones as critical bullpen guys 2) Gordon Beckham for his fourth straight year 3) Brent Morel for key stretches of the first month and a half 4) Numerous rookie relievers 5) Tyler Flowers with inconsistent at-bats 6) Quintana and Santiago 7) Jordan Danks But we did all of those things and more this season. We STILL should have been leading the division with ALL of those things happening (above and beyond Viciedo's development), and we're still ONLY 1 game back with five to play.

QUOTE (whitesox901 @ Sep 29, 2012 -> 12:49 AM) Sox were really goofy that year. Seems like they'd go on the road and go 1-5, then come home and sweep the home stand. Like this year, a lot of things went right, Floyd and Danks had break out seasons, Contreras came back and had a good year (I think that was after his Achilles imploded). The offense was hit and miss, like this year, but everyone bounced back after 2007 where the whole team seemed to slump. In 2007 the bullpen lost , like, 21 games or something, next year the pen was solid (even Linebrink had a good year). Incredible. Danks, Quentin, Floyd and Alexei...the year of unexpected breakout performances that saved KW's butt.

QUOTE (ROC Sox Fan @ Sep 28, 2012 -> 11:55 PM) I had this picture on my dorm room door the next day. Alexei was the man that year. That was the year. I believed a little more that year. But that photo is making me dig deep and remember how to believe. God speed, White Sox. But we were down Crede, CQ and Linebrink wasn't the same in the 2nd half that year.

2 1/2 game lead over the Twins with 7 games left to play in the season (hence, bigger collapse) Spanked by the Twins 3 in a row, including a crushing loss in the series finale to put the Twins up by 1/2 game with 4 go to. White Sox play the Indians 3, the Twins played the Royals. Both teams lose the first two (the White Sox at that point had lost FIVE/5 games in a row before Buehrle stopped the streak!!!), the lead stays at 0.5 for 3 consecutive days as the Twins finally beat the Royals as well. Game 162, Gavin Floyd goes out and beats Garcia/Galarraga. Tied division. And then Game 163. In a way, similar situations in that we lost 3 games in the standings in 2008 in the final week...and we've gone 3-8 versus the Tigers' 7-4 (including the four game KC sweep, and 2-1 vs. Oakland at home). Looking back, 2008 felt a LOT worse and then a LOT better because we lost all those games in a row to Minnesota, and we'd already lost to Minnesota in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, etc. This time, the losses were on the road in Anaheim and in front of small crowds at USCF.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 28, 2012 -> 05:23 PM) Are you Ty Webb? Tyler Durden. Although I suppose I could be Keyser Söze.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Sep 28, 2012 -> 05:18 PM) It all runs together. If Dayan lays off some of the terrible pitches he goes after & also relaxes a bit in the box, he'll stay in his ABs longer, which will lead to more walks, more hits, more power. That increase in BA, OBP, SLG will move him up in the order into more of an RBI position, which will make him even more dangerous and harder to pitch to. Right now Dayan is getting himself out more than the opposition is. The scouting report is getting him out, not necessarily great pitches. Viciedo looks like he feels the pressure & that's not going to work for him. With his bat speed and power the other way he shouldn't have to jump out guessing fastball trying to hit it 700 ft. He needs to learn he can take a pitch, not necessarily to draw a walk, but to prevent the opposition from getting ahead of him without having to throw the ball in the zone. I cited Vlad because Vlad is proof you don't need great discipline to be an elite hitter. Vlad would regularly go after the face-high fastball 2-0, start the AB off by swinging at a slider in the dirt in the LH batters box to go 0-1, etc. even when he was going good. Remember how badly the Angels fans wanted him gone after the Sox pitching staff completely worked him over in the 2005 ALCS? All plate disciple is is a combination of composure, smarts, knowledge of the game, strikezone, and situation, an understanding of the way the opposition pitches you, plus the eye. Viciedo has that eye and he shows it with his bat, but he just gets over aggressive. Because of that aggressive nature he's never going to be patient enough to walk a ton, but all the other stuff that he needs to be a more disciplined hitter can come with time and experience if he has the mental capacity for it. As a fan none of us know enough about him to just assume those other things won't come. The OBP, BB, etc. are just results & you can't necessarily condemn a talented young hitter for lack of ideal results because you have to give him time to develop into that kind of player. To me he seems like a good clubhouse type who adjusts well; the OF adjustment defensively and the increase in BB totals plus his continual advancement through the system into the Major Leagues (and producing there) seems to indicate a player with the capacity to continue to learn and make adjustments. In terms of his hitting tools there is no reason to doubt his potential. The bottom line is he's a productive young player who is young and has the potential to be worth a ton. Giving up on him is good why? We need cheap, young, cost-effective, team-controllable talent whether we want to contend or rebuild or do a bit of both. And if you trade Viciedo for a better player *right now* then you are talking about a player who will likely be a lot more expensive, under control for fewer years, and also probably older, probably in his prime or close to it, rather than several years out (at least as an offensive force). The only justifiable deal for Viciedo is if you trade him for another young, cheap, team-controllable player who also has serious potential. But if you are going to try to make that type of deal, and if you are making it simply because the ideal results aren't there right now, then the only deal you're going to find is another extremely talented player who is also producing under his potential, and again, you do that why? You only make that deal if you know something about his character/mental state/attitude, which none of us would know anything about. If I had Starlin Castro I'd trade him. Viciedo hasn't shown himself to be anything like that. Good post. If you look at Viciedo's numbers from late April through May in Charlotte in 2011, he's shown the capability to take a lot more walks. Part of it has to do with where he's hitting in the batting order. As long as Williams is nominally in charge, there's no way he trades Dayan at this point in his career. I'm not saying he's going to go David Ortiz-post Twins, but I've always been a big believer in his hitting talent, and his defense (especially considering his arm and how many opposing runners would take advantage of Pods and Pierre) this year has been a net plus for a LFer, compared to a negative. Like the rest of the outfield, he's had a few key defensive miscues in the last 4-6 months, but, overall, he's been just fine defensively. And yeah, you'd be looking at someone like Colby Rasmus, who can play CF and allow DeAza to slide over to LF where he's obviously more comfortable. And Rasmus, as we know, has his share of detractors. In fact, their OPS numbers are pretty similar. The main advantage you get out of that is improving the defense in two places, possibly.

1st choice, Hawk and Paciorek back together. No to DJ, I don't even particularly like him on radio. Farmer's more knowledgeable, but can't stop the name-dropping, Notre Dame crap. It's like Harrelson's golf stories that seemingly got nipped in the bud by Bob Grimm. DJ and Farmer have really gotten old the last couple of years, having had to listen to more games than being able to watch them due to slow internet overseas. And please get rid of Rongey while you're at it. And Brooks Boyer. They need someone with a fresh perspective and some imagination to totally start over from scratch on the marketing and promotions side.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Sep 28, 2012 -> 05:01 PM) 4-1 with a 2.56 ERA in his career vs TB....It's certainly not a given that they lose, and if they do it prob wont be on Gavin. The ship has far from sunk IMO Funny, I was actually on a huge cargo ship on the Yangtze River in the middle of that game WED where the division lead went bye-bye. I guess it's appropriate for the ship sinking and Titanic/Lusitania/Remember the Maine analogies to kick in.

Tampa and the Angels played as if their lives depended on it to win each game. Not sure what we're doing, exactly. Luckily I was on a field trip and had classes to teach the last 2 days or I would be more upset. Can't say I'm entirely surprised after the Angels swept us...but you thought they would right the ship against a reeling Indians team at home. When they lost games 2 and 3 in that series and lost the division lead...well, it would be the biggest miracle/turnaround/reversal in Sox history were DET to collapse again, but they've got Verlander and Scherzer and Fister starts left, so that's pretty hard to predict happening.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 28, 2012 -> 05:43 PM) And I also could be named the president of Istanbul. This ship has sunk unfortunately. Does such a position exist? Is there an Applebee's there, or a team named the Royals? I would be glad to nominate you! Since Ozzie loves Spain, maybe he can keep going eastward. Just joking, Greg. Depression setting in with no Sox in the playoffs, Sooners and Hawkeyes sucking even worse than these last 10 days of putrid and depressing play.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 28, 2012 -> 05:07 PM) Can't waste first base on Viciedo who's a 6-7 hitter in a lineup unless you have bats at catcher, short, and center. And then only maybe. Can't waste at-bats on Tyler Flowers or Gordon Beckham because they're 8 and 9th hitters, etc. You can't make a determination about any player's future based on one season. If he puts up the same numbers the next two consecutive years, that's when you can start to form some type of judgement. Is Wise an ideal 1st, 2nd or 3rd place hitter? What about YOUK, who's hitting under .200 in the 2 hole (or close to it) for the entire second half of the season? Dunn hitting 3rd is ideal? Viciedo has been more productive or equal to our 3rd hitter in the 2nd half, Paul Konerko. Is Konerko a 6th-9th place hitter? Obviously not when healthy, but now age and his wrist/bone chips or fragments are conspiring against him. He has to get it cleaned up 100% this offseason.

All season long, there's never been a single answer provided for who could or should play LF or SS more competently than Viciedo (and cheaper, with more upside offensively) or Ramirez, were they to actually be traded. If you can make such a "keen" and astute observation that they both need to go, then how can you not at least have any suggestion for what would be a better, more effective line-up, given the salary constraints we're still going to be operating under...knowing payroll will not expand with the disappointing ending to the season and essentially unchanged season ticket base? Anyone can go to ESPN or baseball-reference or fangraphs and pull up OBP numbers, or OPS, or WAR, righty/lefty splits or whatever. That's the easy part. The hard part is fitting them into a winning, cohesive formula. Cot's baseball contracts is also your friend. The story's no longer that our future looks as bleak as the Astros. It's that we still have a tremendous amount of question marks going forward, but a much better farm system than a year ago, particularly in regards to OF prospects and at least a few decent starting pitching prospects, not to mention a plethora of good relief arms.

None of this would even be an issue if the White Sox hadn't collapsed hitting with RISP the last 6 weeks. Actually, you could say hitting with runners on base has been a bigger problem than low OBP guys, as most of our runs have scored on solo homers. We need "clutch" hitters (and we had plenty of them until we didn't, Alexei Ramirez being a prime example recently) who won't "choke" or tighten up suddenly when the season's on the line. Or at least can hit against the Royals.

QUOTE (Doc Edwards Shot @ Sep 27, 2012 -> 11:50 PM) I'm wondering how much the payroll can really go down even if Kenny and Jerry try. The only expensive guy leaving will be Peavy and the other expensive guys aren't really tradeable (Rios, Dunn, Danks, Konerko, Thornton). AJ doesn't make that much last I checked, only about $6 million. So if they don't bring him back that's not that much in savings. Boston paid $11 million of Youkilis' $12 million salary this year, so he doesn't figure in when they buy him out and make him a free agent after this season ends. Seems to me the payroll is going to continue to be high. Remove Youk, AJ, Peavy, maybe Floyd, Myers....the only other places where they might logically cut would Ramirez (and he has no replacement, so not so logical, and he's not going to have you a huge return like after 2008-2010 seasons anymore), Crain and Thornton, but Thornton would just be a salary dump at this point. There's no solution for 3B internally. There's no solution for CF internally if they move DeAza, which they really can't because that would force a Viciedo trade and get you absolutely nothing in return, so you're surrendering talent with ZERO to show for it.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 27, 2012 -> 10:40 PM) It did? Everyone was worried about the road trip at KC and Anaheim. In that one moment, having survived that game...beating the Tigers and extending the lead to 3 instead of having it cut down to 1, I thought we could go 1-2 in LA and 2-2 against TB and still pull it off. The two Royals games that followed the previous(ly) poorly played Royals series, the RISP worries, the Baltimore series, there were lots of warning signs, that's for sure.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 27, 2012 -> 10:33 PM) Yep, exactly. 2006 seemed like a bigger collapse to me, as that team seemed significantly more talented and was the best Sox team I had ever seen during the first half of the season. The difference is the Tigers were in first place for most of the first half, despite our 26 games over .500 pre-ASB play. Then the Twins (behind Liriano and Santana) went on that incredible roll. I just remember vividly an August series against the Red Sox (we got swept and then Jenks was ouchy too) and you already had a feeling in your bones it was over as the offense cooled off and the arm-weariness on the pitching staff started to show itself.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Sep 27, 2012 -> 10:45 PM) I don't ever remember actually collapsing in 2006. At least not too late. We just couldn't keep up. 2003 is about the only thing comparable to me. Most loaded team in franchise history all goes to waste because of Jose Paniagua They did lose their final 6 in a row to the Twins. Loaiza wet the bed. That game that Paniagua relieved in, they actually WON. Momentum's supposed to go only as far as the next game's starting pitcher, but you knew as soon as they lose those two against the Royals, went up against a desperate Angels team on the road and then had to face a desperate Rays team at home. Well...those are just excuses, because in the end, our team either wasn't desperate enough to win or playing too desperately/tightly, however you want to characterize it. We can't blame the Royals. The Sox players and coaches can only blame themselves. And it's hard to blame the fans for not showing up when you're losing 8/9 games, including 3 crucial/critical/must win games in a row at home.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 27, 2012 -> 10:32 PM) The Sox were never in control, even with a 3 game lead, simply due to the final 2 weeks on the schedule for both teams. The biggest lead was 3 1/2 games, and tonight marks the biggest deficit, passing the 1 1/2 margin after the first sweep in Detroit. Never in control. It felt in control after we finally beat DET and had a 3 game lead.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 27, 2012 -> 10:28 PM) The bases loaded debacle you're referring to was in Detroit. Maybe all the Detroit games are running together for me right now, there were so many wasted opportunities. We had a huge chance in a game against Fister and didn't knock him out early. Where was that?

Not really, because everyone (nationally) expected the Tigers to finally pass us. However, when we had that huge make-up game win over DET to push the lead to 3...when Minnesota took 2/3 or when the Royals swept the Tigers at home, you really thought this was going to be their year to make it. And we knew that our pitching staff was gassed, and our inconsistent bullpen/managerial decision-making process was mediocre, AT BEST.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 27, 2012 -> 10:23 PM) I'd point to the night before when Viciedo, Alexei and Flowers all failed to at least tie the game with bases loaded and no outs. At the time, the team had won 5 in a row and had Sale on the mound. They never seemed to recover after that failed opportunity, and the struggles with RISP reached almost unbelievable heights. I would go back to the 2nd DET game following the Quintana opening win. They had just tied the game with a Wise walk and had bases loaded, no outs, 3-3 against Fister. Youk lined to 3rd, Dunn struck out and that was the beginning of the end. Hitting with RISP has been the bane of this team for weeks now, after leading the majors for the first 4 1/2 months of the season.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 27, 2012 -> 08:33 PM) Sorry buddy, but this is too similar to what greg says about Ozzie that we criticize him for. Well, I'm not going to get pitchforks out and crucify KW for THIS season. If you want it to be for 2006, 2007, 2009-2011, then that's fine. But to turn around here because of our recent 1-7 stretch and say the season was a disaster, that's just pushing it too far.