caulfield12

QUOTE (flavum @ May 15, 2013 -> 10:30 AM) Hahn was on the Score this morning. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/audio/986-670-...-interviews#986 Not buying that there's no "carryover effect" at all from last season. He's the GM, he can't admit to that...but whatever. And the argument about the defense "getting to more balls put into play" is so hard to quantify or defend. If you've followed the team closely and compared it to last year, there's just 5X more mental mistakes (throwing to the wrong bases, missing cutoff men, lackadaisical routes, throws bouncing, wild pitches and passed balls, etc.) than just physical ones "caused by pressing," which seems to be the company line (Beckham and Konerko basically said the same thing). He also said the pitchers weren't pitching over mistakes as well as they did last year (well, before the final six weeks). "Execution equalling ability." Hmmmm... Plus, there's no denying the dropoff comparing Kepp vs. Beckham. But, that said, if we win today, 17-21 would match out record at the same point last year. Except I'm 98% sure that we weren't in last place with four teams stacked ahead of us and still a good distance out of 4th place (which would obviously also change with another win today).

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ May 15, 2013 -> 10:18 AM) Not quite. Regardless of Danks' defense that may be overrated, he's better than any of our starters out there. I'd rather give Danks a chance. While both seasons have been limited, his last two seasons ('12 & '13) at AAA he's posted +.300/+.400. Tieing in his above average defense and it's time for him to graduate and I am not high on him enough to give him a starting job. With Wise you know what you're getting. Above average speed, above average defense and s***ty stats at the plate. I think Danks can do that and even have a chance to excel. Plus, Danks has been clutch in his short time up. Even in a role where he would go a full week with out at bats he got in in some extra inning games and hit a walk off homer and a GW homer. With Wise, you get nothing after this year. He is 32 (about?) and is a journey man. Keep Wise and then we go to 2014 without knowing what Danks can do. Especially how this year has been looking you have to give the nod to Danks to see what he has. The difference is Wise knows his role. He's not a regular player, except for a few brief stretches of his long career. It's hard to ask younger players like Danks to step into that kind of role. Danks' long swing/hitting approach doesn't lend itself to getting 3-4 AB's once every ten days.

QUOTE (KPBears @ May 15, 2013 -> 10:15 AM) OK, you think Viciedo's a "free-swinging hack." His .800+ OPS in his limited plate appearances disagrees with you. And, since he's gotten back, he's been an incredibly different looking hitter. De Aza is a fine position player, probably a 2-3 WAR player. He's good for a .750ish OPS, good average, good speed, a little pop. He already has 7 homers this year. He strikes out a lot, but I can live with that if and when he starts drawing a few walks on top of his solid contact ability. Alexei Ramirez is still one of the best shortstops in the AL, and it really is difficult to name many guys better than him. Even with a .low .700s OPS, he's incredibly valuable. Konerko put up an .857 OPS last year, and he's shown in the past that he can basically flip a switch at any point and turn it on. Dunn put up an .800 OPS last year. Keppinger kills lefties. Gillaspie is showing to be a really, really solid hitter. You are underselling an absolute ton of players by throwing a blanket statement of "they're not good" merely because they have struggled for a month. As you mentioned, you're looking at a "limited" sample of Viciedo. I'm looking at his total body of work at this point. He kind of reminds me of a lesser Carlos Lee. Yeah, Lee has a fair amount of hits and home runs over his career. But it took him a long time to amass those stats, and he's never meant that much to any of his teams. When the Sox got Pods for him, I think the Sox fleeced the Brewers in that trade (I don't care that the rest of Soxtalk hates Pods, face it, 2005 doesn't happen without him). And I see Dayan as a worse version of Lee. I think De Aza is a solid leadoff hitter, but there's a difference between solid and good (I'll throw Alexei and Beckham, maybe, into the solid but not good category as well). Dunn is done (pun intended, and spot on as well). Konerko is also done. I love Paulie. Carried himself as a true professional on and off the field. I want his number retired, and a statue in 5 years. But he has almost nothing left. Regardless of the return, I want the Sox to trade him to a contender, because Paulie deserves one more chance at a ring. Keppinger is pure garbage. He kills lefties? You know what that means? He's a platoon player at best. You don't make your big offseason move a platoon player. It's ok to do that midseason when you're just trying to fine tune a team that's already good/great (like the 2005 Sox when they just added Blum). I like what Gillaspie has done so far, but lately he's been coming back to Earth, and he's got a long way to go to prove he's for real considering his track record. This team has more holes than Swiss cheese. With the possible exception of Rios, there's not a single above average hitter on the team at any position, and in most cases, they are far below average. It's not the matter of guys underachieving (because they're not, the lineup is just that bad) or adding a couple of pieces in the offseason. The pitching staff is strong (although, assuming Peavy isn't dealt and stays healthy, I think we still need a number three starting pitcher, and I have my doubts that Danks is ever coming back as an effective pitcher), but the lineup needs at least three good hitters, and at least two of whom are big on base guys, and a major comeback from Konerko. There's no help on the farm, and there is zero chance that this team can compete this year. Stockpile prospects and invest money, and more importantly time and effort, in player development. I'm not going to have this whole Viciedo argument. But a kid at his age putting up an 800+ OPS and showing a lot more patience recently...that's just as likely to be him going forward as your scenario, but it's up to you if you want to think it's below average for a 23 or 24 year outfielder to hit 25 home runs in basically his rookie season. You can't compare Viciedo and Lee mainly because that was 90% a Lee salary dump (along with Magglio and Ordonez) going into 2005. Lee was already a well-established, veteran player who had settled into career historical trends by that point. He also had a fair share of detractors in the clubhouse and front office due to character issues and perceived selfishness in his game. That trade had nothing to do with talent and everything to do with freeing up money and also dramatically altering clubhouse chemistry.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ May 15, 2013 -> 10:11 AM) I will just say that I think the Sox are much more likely to trade Rios than they are Ramirez, and that's basically because it is much easier to find outfielders than it is to find shortstops like Ramirez. You might not get your Matt Adams, but there are certainly several other players that the team could acquire for him. Or you can package Rios and Dunn and eat a bad contract or take back nothing in return or whatever. And which team/s going to be willing to commit $50-55 million to Dunn/Rios for the next two years? Even if you offloaded BOTH those contracts, the RF hole wouldn't be addressable until the offseason/free agency, in all likelihood. We don't have anyone close to being ready to start on Opening Day 2014 from the Mitchell/Walker/Thompson group. So then we're having to go out and bid for players on the open market (like a Granderson) instead of replacing them from within. Trading Peavy or Ramirez or Rios is the only way to get something decent back in return....along with Reed. There's no way you can afford to trade Santiago or Quintana without knowing Danks' future. Heck, we might not know Danks' future after 2013, as far as whether we can rely on him or not. We'll have no choice but to go into 2014 with him in the starting rotation, pretty much regardless of the results this year.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 15, 2013 -> 10:08 AM) Or someone will say Bochy has managed 8 teams that finished under .500 and 5 that have lost 90 plus games. The facts are, the better players you have, the better manager you are perceived to be. Even the Giants had 4 consecutive under .500 years, and then they were signing free agents. Not exactly a gut rebuild, and obviously they had players in their system who could play. Who do the White Sox have in their system were anyone could confidently say that by 2016 they will be a better than average hitter in the major leagues? They may be there, but there is going to have to be a big jump. The approach they are using is best moving forward. Why get rid of your best players? Why stop trying to win? They aren't that far off. If they could hit right now, they would be really good. They'll have the next 2 1/2 months for Beckham, Flowers and Gillaspie to prove themselves. And Dunn and Konerko to become reasonable facsimiles of their former selves. If they can't do that, no amount of good pitching is going to fix things. And, most importantly, we need to start seeing an improvement trend with the mental and physical errors...MUCH better defense has to be a part of this rebound. We've given away at least 3 and as many as 5-6 games already this year. We don't have that kind of margin for error to keep digging a bigger and bigger hole for the offense to climb out of. And we can't just expect Sale/Santiago/Axelrod/Peavy to pitch this way the entire season.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:50 AM) Even as "bad" as the Sox have been in recent years, they still haven't had back to back losing seasons since Manuel's first two years managing. So why on god's green earth do you think they'd "muddle" their way through three 74-78 win seasons right now? In this scenario, you even have them making additions to the club! OK, you think Viciedo's a "free-swinging hack." His .800+ OPS in his limited plate appearances disagrees with you. And, since he's gotten back, he's been an incredibly different looking hitter. De Aza is a fine position player, probably a 2-3 WAR player. He's good for a .750ish OPS, good average, good speed, a little pop. He already has 7 homers this year. He strikes out a lot, but I can live with that if and when he starts drawing a few walks on top of his solid contact ability. Alexei Ramirez is still one of the best shortstops in the AL, and it really is difficult to name many guys better than him. Even with a .low .700s OPS, he's incredibly valuable. Konerko put up an .857 OPS last year, and he's shown in the past that he can basically flip a switch at any point and turn it on. Dunn put up an .800 OPS last year. Keppinger kills lefties. Gillaspie is showing to be a really, really solid hitter. You are underselling an absolute ton of players by throwing a blanket statement of "they're not good" merely because they have struggled for a month. This pitching staff is incredibly deep and talented, and rebuilding now would be an absolute waste of that, because by the time you'd be "ready" offensively, most of these guys would have become too expensive to keep anymore. Then the cycle starts over. Beyond that, you say you'd take 5 years of losing for 20 years of winning, but as of last year, the White Sox were "winning" as much as they have at any point in the last 20 years. If you want that, then why would you rebuild in the first place? They'll almost certainly end up around 81-85 wins this year anyways. I honestly think if the Sox just stick out this year, make a trade or two if necessary to clear some payroll, and make additions in the offseason, everyone will give up this silly idea of rebuilding. You bring in guys like Morales, Utley, McCann, or Granderson, and suddenly you have power and excitement in the lineup again, and then the fans get excited too. I've admitted that the current Sox team is incredibly boring to watch and there's no real personality, but I can recognize that the team is good enough to win some games. Bad/disappointing....2007, 2009, 2011, 2013? Good/decent/competitive....2006, 2008, 2010, 2012 The problem is that the current offensive situation needs to be FIXED and nobody knows if Hahn's the man for the job, OR if the minor league system can produce a single starting position player in the next two years. My scenario for 74-78 win seasons is not doing anything but holding onto the current roster and keeping the payroll about the same or lowering it roughly 5-10% a year to reflect veterans leaving and attendance falling. If we did add those players like Matt Adams (for Ramirez/reliever), Morales, Utley, Granderson, McCann and kept every part of our rotation intact, then there's a VERY good chance we could get back to 88-90 wins UNLESS Sale goes down with an injury. Obviously, not all five, but at least 2 and possibly 3.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:56 AM) I also think Bruce Bochy is one of the best if not the best managers in baseball This is where someone will say the defending World Series champions also hired a manager with little to no experience in Matheny.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:54 AM) I still think the SF Giants are a pretty good model...where they were in 2007-2009 seems pretty similar to where we are now...I remember thinking they were a mess, with the Bonds thing coming to a disastrous ending, having Zito on the books for several more years, trading Tim Alderson to Pittsburgh for Freddy Sanchez, etc...they looked very lost...and turned it around very quickly. I don't see why we couldn't pull of the same thing. Two choices. Pull in additional revenue (higher attendance) or spend that money much more wisely. The Giants have a lot more margin for error (Zito) than we've had with Dunn/Danks. They're the "first team" in that market, and they have one of the most picturesque stadiums in all of baseball...

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:36 AM) It was a loaded question. I was waiting for somebody to say Beckham so I could get a good laugh in before work. If we use that $31 million in savings PRODUCTIVELY, yes, you can definitely make the argument: $31 million + Gordon Beckham/Carlos Sanchez at SS + Matt Adams at 1B for the next 5-7 years >>> Ramirez with an albatross contract in 2014 or 2015 + Keppinger/Beckham at 2B + Viciedo/Dunn/???? at 1B. You're free to laugh at that, but we might not be laughing a year or two from now if we don't do something and just sit on all our declining assets until we can't get anything at all back in return for them. Or written another way, Beckham/Sanchez at SS, Chase Utley/Dan Uggla at 2B + Matt Adams at 1B for 5-7 years >>> STANDING PAT

QUOTE (KPBears @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:28 AM) The problem is the Sox don't have any good position players, except for maybe Rios (sorry Dayan fans, I think the guy's a free-swinging hack). I'm still undecided on Santiago and Quintana. The only really good players the Sox have are Sale (who should be untouchable unless there's the baseball equivalent of the Herschel Walker trade offered) and Peavy. I've mentioned before that I like what the Astros are now doing. Before people criticize that, realize that they are really just starting their rebuild. Their current GM is in his 2nd year. Unfortunately for them, they took a few years screwing around before they finally got direction. But he's committed to a plan, and like the Sox, the Astros have the money to keep good players. Instead of wasting a few years, I'd like to see the Sox commit to a complete rebuild now. The team maybe garbage for a while, but if the Sox can go through four or five bad years (like the late 80's) for 20+ years of consistent winning (like 1990 - 2012), I'll take it. As for the fans going away, guess what, the fans are going away regardless, because the Sox are going to be miserable. But the Sox, through WGN and merchandise sales, have revenue sources beyond attendance. And again, I'm confident that JR will spend when the time's right, as he did prior to the 2005 season adding Dye, AJ, and Iguchi (yes, they weren't elite free agents, but they were a lot bigger deals than Keppinger). I'm 98% sure our ComCast deal actually provides us more money per game than the WGN broadcasts, but WGN is available to a much wider audience, so it's a far better marketing tool than a regional sports network. As for Viciedo, he has to be a franchise cornerstone offensively or there's no reason NOT to start rebuilding now, when you look at the status of our minor league system, Dunn/Konerko and the fact that Rios is aging and starting to make some lackadaisical plays in the OF again....I just can't believe the Sox are going to give him a long-term extension. And still would be pretty shocked if they picked up his 2015 option. Peavy is the ONE player on the roster (other than Sale) and to a lesser extent, Santiago/Quintana, with a good amount of trade value. If you keep Peavy, there's zero point in selling off the rest of the team because you're not going to be competitive in either 2013 or 2014. He's worth more to the 2015 team in terms of bringing in future offensive talent and cutting payroll simultaneously. That said, I don't prefer that model because I believe in Viciedo...AND firmly believe we could trade off SOME pieces (like Ramirez/Peavy/Crain/Thornton/Lindstrom...and possibly Reed or Jones), keep all of our starting pitching intact EXCEPT for Peavy, and have at least a 60/40 chance of being competitive offensively in 2014.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:24 AM) The Rockies? When have they won anything? Clearly not "sustained success". Besides, since 2005, where the Sox results have been unacceptable, they still have won a lot more games than the Rockies. The Braves have never done a gut rebuild and have not had 2 consecutive seasons under .500 in 23 years. The Brewers results certainly don't qualify as sustained success either and they have the same record as the White Sox this season. People want the Sox to be the Rays, who btw, haven't won any titles themselves. That took a very long time and a lot of losing to accomplish. This isn't the NBA. You can't totally transform your team in 2 years with a couple of high lottery picks. Okay, the Nationals then.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:08 AM) That all evaporates when the Sox do a White Flag trade and fans plus advertisers leave in droves. If no one is at the park, you can't retain your own players. How do you know you're right this time? Can you guarantee we won't lose 33% of the fanbase anyway if we continue to muddle through three more season with 74-78 win teams that have no realistic chance at the playoffs even with additions at the trade deadline?

QUOTE (Disco72 @ May 15, 2013 -> 09:09 AM) So, to which rebuilds should a potential Sox firesale/rebuild be comparable? Houston? Seattle? Baltimore? I don't see a lot of positive examples no matter which team / market is doing the rebuilding. The Rockies, perhaps. They have the huge advantage in crowds (from a sheer numbers perspective), but we charge a lot more for tickets, parking, concessions...and, as a major market team, much less of our revenue is attendance-dependent. Atlanta Braves, would be another one...going from a long playoff cycle and into a new stadium, peaking, falling off for awhile and then coming back. The post new-stadium Brewers.

Plus, it reinforces the idea they're building around a foundation of younger players like Rizzo, Castro and Mr. Long Hair WR.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 15, 2013 -> 12:30 AM) You know Wise is blah when I would like to see him replaced. I was against bringing him back. As far as Dunn, man, is that so difficult Adam? You are so fricking big n strong all you have to do is hit the ball in the air. Just make contact. You don't have to pull the ball big guy. Peavy was excellent and Flowers gets a key hit now and then. Maybe this year will be good for him and he'll learn how to hit more consistently. I know he stinks but occasionally he raps a big hit. Viciedo ... what a bomb. When the other options are Jordan Danks and Blake Tekotte, the choice about Wise isn't so clear...especially for a manager who prefers veterans he knows what to expect from them. You can't discount Wise's presence in the clubhouse...he was really missed when the Yankees cut him adrift last year.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 14, 2013 -> 10:12 PM) Urban legend It's beginning to remind me of Dewon Day having the best slider in the organization. Or Anderson Gomes the fastest baserunner. Arnie Munoz the best curveball, etc. Felix Diaz the best fastball.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ May 14, 2013 -> 10:33 PM) Because we never went over slot in the draft and had no presence in Latin America. The new CBA has changed everything and the organization is embracing these changes. People need to give it time though. Unfortunately, patience is not a virtue of this board. Also, if you think signing a couple of stopgaps is riskier than rebuilding than I'm at a loss of words. Especially when logic dictates that 3-4 veteran McCann/Utley/Morales/Willingham/Morse type players is 10X better than putting all your eggs in the Greinke/Hamilton/Pujols basket for a team that can't just wildly throw money around with the 6-8 biggest franchises. Not until our ComCast deal starts bringing in a lot more revenue in 2019. Back to 2005...lots of "stopgaps" came into the roster. Would anyone have thought, the day he was acquired, that Dye would be a member of the Sox through 2009? AJ through 2012? Jenks, not self-destructing and even making the big leagues when he was acquired on waivers? Contreras through 2009? Iguchi, who nobody had ever seen and already an established veteran in Japan? That Takatsu would barely last a full year? That Hermanson would be one of the best pitchers in baseball for 4 months that year and then disappear into the abyss...same with Cotts/Politte? The point is, a lot of those "stop gap" guys ended up hanging around a LONG time, maybe too long.

Time to trade Peavy and Reed for the maximum return! (Just joking...but we'll HOPEFULLY NOT return to this topic in late July).

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:41 PM) 2005 is actually a great example. We went into that season without any major holes. We had a complete starting staff with a legitimate prospect in the minors as insurance, a full bullpen top to bottom with veterans who could fit their roles, we brought in a real catcher, a real 2B, picked up a lead-off hitter for the first time in forever, etc. We had starting pitching, a bullpen, offense, defense, power, speed and a mix of veteran leadership and youth. Go into every season like that and, while you're not even guaranteed a playoff spot much less a WS title, you at least have a chance. That team clicked and we won. The 2006 team looked really good too but didn't get it done, but we still had a chance. When you tear everything down and trade everyone then you have no chance, and when you go into the offseason you have to address every aspect of an offense, defense, and a pitching staff, rather than only needing to address a few select areas. And Takatsu as the closer for the first month. A lot of people forget that.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:29 PM) Andy gonzalez leading off in 2007 got Walker no passes. It was always his fault. Erstad, DWise, leading off, if the Sox didn't score it was because of the hitting coach. Psychology. Those fans were still so caught up in the 2005 and 2006 seasons that they were unwilling to accept that the personnel was different. We've struggled for so long now since 2008 that it's just par for the course, especially with Adam Dunn. Fans probably consider it a minor victory of sorts that Rios hasn't remained an albatross contract.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:26 PM) And here come the Rays once again. They looked like a bunch of broke dick dogs 10 days ago. After tonight's win (Matt Moore was filthy after a rough first), they've won 6 in a row and 8 of 10. Anybody know how Wil Myers is doing? I haven't followed any minor league baseball so far. http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?p...&pid=571976 770 OPS. Josh Phegley's seriously outhitting him.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:22 PM) Remember when scoring 4 runs wasn't a big deal? That was awesome. I do remember when Walker was blamed for all the offensive woes, lol. This year, Manto seems to be getting a free pass because of the overall talent level being so low.

They're not going to let Duensing face Viciedo, are they?

QUOTE (fathom @ May 14, 2013 -> 08:18 PM) I assume you didn't see what happened? I won't pick up MLB Extra Innings until June 16th when I am back in the US for six weeks and the internet connection's a lot smoother than here in China. Depends on how the Sox are playing...or if they have brought in any new/interesting players.

Just don't hit into a DP here, Dunn. Wow, can't believe Viciedo having missed so much time is only 4 RBI's behind Dunn (7 HR's, 13 RBI's).