caulfield12

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 01:25 PM) Why do you make stuff up? I.E. "You probably think ..." So please bless and grace us with your opinion on where the might Juan Pierre would hit in the line-up. And you're not taking into consideration Viciedo is probably even or better with him defensively and has a MUCH better arm to prevent every single baserunner in the majors from challenging him. Are you factoring in all the extra bases and runs scored because of Pierre's arm in LF? Heck, he cost us 2-3 wins in April/May 2011 alone with his atrocious defense. You can't just look at one single dimension.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 01:15 PM) Why do you make stuff up? True or false. You want to trade for Juan Pierre and play him in LF against RHP? What position do you actually want him to hit in the order? 9th? That kind of defeats your whole argument...if he's such a great hitter against RHP, shouldn't he hit 1st or 2nd? DEAR MAGNIFICENT MARTY Name the last 3 outfielders who have come to the AL from the NL and hit significantly better or the same as they were hitting in the NL? Your whole argument is based on 1) the NL=AL, and 2) Pierre actually sustaining his success rate. Juan Pierre OPS totals in 2009 April .905 May .940 June .628 July .603 Aug .852 Sept .560 Juan Pierre can be hot for a month or two, in the NL, and keep in mind, this was 3 years ago, when he actually had speed. But there's no way he can sustain it over a longer time period. He will wear down in August and September, it's inevitable.

Here's an idea. Why don't we trade for someone who WON'T cost us Viciedo but will still give us a huge boost, like Liriano or Guthrie? John Paul Morosi Updated Jul 18, 2012 11:47 AM ET Tuesday night, it became apparent that the three American League Central contenders have the same trade-deadline need. WHAT'S THE DEAL? Follow the latest trade deadline moves with our transaction tracker. A starting pitcher. In Detroit, Jacob Turner — the Tigers’ top pitching prospect — surrendered seven earned runs over two innings in a disastrous outing against the Los Angeles Angels. While the Angels were battering Turner, the Tampa Bay Rays — with one of the meeker lineups in the AL — scored three first-inning runs against Cleveland starter Josh Tomlin. He surrendered four runs in all and failed to complete the sixth inning in a 4-2 loss. Earlier in the day, the first-place Chicago White Sox placed Gavin Floyd on the disabled list with right-elbow tendinitis. While Floyd could return as early as next week, the current rotation includes two All-Stars (Chris Sale and Jake Peavy), two rookies (Dylan Axelrod and Jose Quintana), and Phil Humber, who has a 7.02 ERA since throwing a perfect game in April — even after his win over Boston on Tuesday night. Can the acquisition of one starting pitcher help to swing a division race? Absolutely. It happened in the AL Central last year. The Tigers led the Indians by only three games before Doug Fister’s first start with the club Aug. 3. The Tigers had the best record in the AL from that point forward, including 9-2 in Fister’s starts. Detroit won the division by 15 games. This year, the White Sox, Tigers and Indians are likely scouting many of the same trade candidates. One starter who would fit nicely for all three teams — Minnesota’s Francisco Liriano — pitches for a division rival. Liriano returned to the Twins’ rotation May 30 after a brief spell in the bullpen; his 2.83 ERA since then is among the top 15 for major-league starters during that span, according to STATS LLC. Liriano, 28, would have particular appeal to the Tigers and Indians, who lack a left-handed starter in their rotations. (The White Sox have two, Sale and Quintana.) As for the complication of trading within the division: The Twins dealt Delmon Young to the Tigers last year, and Liriano will be eligible for free agency after the season, anyway. The White Sox have had the division’s best rotation this year, but they stand to gain the most by acquiring an established starter. As brilliantly as Sale and Peavy are pitching this year, they have surpassed the number of innings they threw in the majors last season. That raises concerns about their durability in the second half. Frankly, manager Robin Ventura can’t be too sure about what his other starters have left to offer, either. Quintana has a 5.68 ERA over his last three outings; Axelrod has only two quality starts this season; John Danks hasn’t pitched since May because of a left-shoulder injury, and there’s no guarantee he will return this year. The White Sox farm system is among the most barren in baseball, but that hasn’t stopped general manager Kenny Williams from making big deals before. Williams is known for taking chances on talented players at the low ebbs of their careers (A.J. Pierzynski, Carlos Quentin, Ken Griffey Jr., Manny Ramirez and most recently Kevin Youkilis.) Among available pitchers, Colorado’s Jeremy Guthrie best fits that description. He’s having a horrible season at high altitude, but his July ERA is a respectable 4.32. While Chicago’s U.S. Cellular Field is hardly a pitcher’s haven, Guthrie may be more comfortable there than at Coors Field.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 01:05 PM) That actually makes sense for both teams and all of the players. It makes sense if John Henry's writing a check for $25-35 million to go along with it.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:03 PM) A respectable player is going to cost a respectable return. Pierre might come cheaply which was the whole point of the idea. A cheap insurance policy. Now he's an insurance policy? You keep advocating he get 65-70% of the at-bats in LF and come up to the plate more than anyone but DeAza. Heck, you probably think he's a better leadoff hitter than Alejandro because of DeAza's 15/23 stolen base success rate, which is quite similar to Juan's in 2010 and 2011.

Mitchell's value has fallen far enough in the last 6 weeks he can no longer be considered a centerpiece of a deal...unless it's for a Millwood type. They're better off holding onto him going into 2013, unless you absolutely have to include him to get someone like Garza, Dempster, Greinke, etc.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:16 AM) Pierre has been getting on base against RH'ers in 2012 much better than Viciedo. At the very least, he'd be a cheap insurance policy. And what place are the Phillies in the standings again using Juan Pierre prominently in their line-up?

QUOTE (That funky motion @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:28 AM) Yesterday, Josh Norris tweeted that the White Sox have had scouts at Dellin Betances‘ last three starts for Trenton. He then stated that a source told him that Chicago has “zeroed in” on the big hurler. Betances has been one of the Yankees’ top prospects the last few years, but he has always struggled with his consistency. After going 3-5 with a 6.39 ERA and 5.88 FIP in 16 starts with Empire State, the Yankees finally sent Betances back to Trenton, where he is looking a lot more confident. In Triple-A, Betances was averaging 8.32 BB/9 while picking up 8.56 K/9. In his first three games back in Double-A he has cut his walks way down (3.38 BB/9) while continuing to strike out batters (9.64 K/9). Norris had no insight into who the White Sox would be willing to give up for Betances, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees were willing to part with him for the right deal. Could this be the end of another Killer B in Pinstripes? Update (Brien): My general rule on this sort of thing is that anytime a reporter the caliber of Norris is being told that there’s serious interest in a player from a team, there’s at least a decent chance something will happen. That said, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for news of a deal between the Yankees and White Sox this year. Like Tamar, I would think the Yankees would be pretty eager to part with Betances in the right deal these days, but looking at the White Sox roster, there just aren’t any obvious fits for a deal between the two teams. From the Yankees’ perspective, getting Matt Thornton or A.J. Pierzynski would be ideal, but neither of those two names are even going to be on the table with the Chi Sox in the thick of the pennant race. As far as a prospect-for-prospect swap, the White Sox system is pretty bare at the moment, but I suppose it’s possible there are some guys there that the Yankees’ scouts are high on and would be willing to swap Betances for. In a heartbeat, Thornton + prospect for Betances. Turn around and trade for someone like Darren Oliver to replace Matt. Plus, that gives us some payroll flexibility jettisoning Thornton's salary.

Cool name. There's that. Might as well be HamLET, but Hanlet's close to Hanley, so there's hope in that direction. $$$$?????

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:00 AM) My idea for getting Pence is more for next season.. We already did this in 2009 with Rios pushing Dye to the bench. We don't want to mess with team chemistry in that fashion. I guess you'd be trading Viciedo for Pence? Who would they possibly take for him, besides current major league talent? Especially if they keep Hamels, their entire focus will be on winning in 2013.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:59 AM) I don't like Beckham. I just wanted to see your response. I told you what you should be doing with your time. Offering Greinke's agent $80 million extension through 2016 as a condition of a trade to the White Sox and see if he'll bite. He once said that USCF was his least favorite place to pitch or play, that he just didn't feel comfortable (maybe because of the mound), but with those comments out there, I would be shocked if we were able to sign him on an extension.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:47 AM) I like Beckham. So we're getting way below average offensive production from him, we've had 3 full seasons to watch him progress (or lack thereof)... There are 17 2B ranked ahead of Beckham. Gordon is 18th. Only 3 are behind him, Ackley, J. Weeks and Andino. 1 Robinson Cano NYY 350 61 112 27 1 21 55 1 2 33 55 .320 .381 .583 .964 2 Aaron Hill ARI 333 41 100 21 5 12 41 7 2 27 51 .300 .355 .502 .857 3 Neil Walker PIT 328 47 99 21 0 7 44 7 4 36 75 .302 .370 .430 .799 4 Ian Kinsler TEX 377 65 104 26 3 10 43 15 6 34 50 .276 .341 .440 .781 5 Jason Kipnis CLE 344 53 95 10 3 11 51 20 3 39 60 .276 .352 .419 .771 6 Brandon Phillips CIN 323 49 93 15 1 10 50 5 0 18 42 .288 .331 .433 .765 7 Jose Altuve HOU 337 50 99 21 4 5 27 16 5 18 47 .294 .337 .424 .761 8 Omar Infante MIA 310 41 88 23 2 8 33 10 1 11 40 .284 .309 .448 .757 9 Dan Uggla ATL 303 55 67 15 0 12 46 1 2 58 101 .221 .353 .389 .743 10 Daniel Murphy NYM 328 34 96 25 2 3 43 6 1 20 43 .293 .331 .409 .740 RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS 11 Dustin Pedroia BOS 305 41 81 19 2 6 33 6 3 26 40 .266 .326 .400 .726 12 Kelly Johnson TOR 312 42 75 9 2 10 37 10 1 43 94 .240 .331 .378 .709 13 Danny Espinosa WSH 321 44 77 22 2 7 26 14 4 27 100 .240 .311 .386 .697 14 Howard Kendrick LAA 309 34 86 13 2 5 32 6 5 17 66 .278 .315 .382 .697 15 Marco Scutaro COL 346 43 95 14 3 4 25 7 2 23 34 .275 .325 .367 .692 16 Darwin Barney CHC 305 38 80 18 2 4 26 6 0 18 29 .262 .306 .374 .679 17 Rickie Weeks MIL 315 38 63 17 2 9 33 6 0 48 107 .200 .315 .352 .668 And yet a 23 year old ALREADY providing average offensive production (OPS-wise, he's above, LF is around 730) is our biggest problem???

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:36 AM) He makes too many outs and a big revenue team like the Sox doesn't have to wait 2-3 years to develop a LF 'er. You mean like we've developed Gordon Beckham? What is your position on Gordon Beckham's future with the White Sox, Marty?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:34 AM) Guys, I'm not a Viciedo hater, but I think you're overstating his contribution this year. He's at a 98wRC+, which means that wehn you adjust for league and park, he's been a tick below average offensively for left fielders. This, combined with slightly negative defensive and baserunning ratings put him at 0.3 WAR. ZiPs projects him to end the year with 0.8 WAR -- an "average" MLB player usually sits around 2.0 WAR for a full year. This is mostly driven by his sub-.300 OBP. Yes, he is 23 and has lots of upside and will probably improve, but so far this year, the only difference between Viciedo and Delmon Young has been some timely homeruns. It's not what he hits, it's WHEN he hits. Take away those two three run bombs against the Yankees and Royals and we're only 1 1/2 games ahead of the Tigers and in danger of being passed this weekend.

Has the story ever came out about who really had the biggest issue with Daniel Hudson? Was it Ozzie, Cooper or KW? That's the most refreshing thing about Ventura. Other than maybe Fukudome, there wasn't a single player this year who was unhappy. Maybe Santiago's confused about his role, but you have to believe Cooper, Nieves and Ventura have made him feel he still could or will be important to the team the last 72 games.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:29 AM) That's a good question considering he shouldn't need to be defended. Especially when the alternatives brought up have been Dan Johnson and Juan Pierre. I would actually accept the idea of Dan Johnson putting up a 700-725 OPS before believing Juan Pierre could actually pull it off. Matt Thornton wouldn't be able to enter any game with Juan playing the outfield, or the game would be over before he even threw a pitch.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:22 AM) The key here when evaluating giving up a guy like DV is remembering who you're getting back. If we had to giveup DV to get Greinke for this year and an extension, you just do it, and here's why: Greinke is a 29 year old top-10 SP in the MLB. Healthy, he's a 6-7 win pitcher over the next few years. Guys like DV have the potential to be 6-7 win guys, but they almost never are. Prospects are super important because it's impossible to build lasting success without cost-controlled talent, but when you're in the middle of a race to the postseason, you jump at the chance to give up a lottery ticket for the real thing. Now, if we're talking about some veteran with a year or two left like Dempster, or if we're talking about a pure half season rental, you pull the reins back. But in a win-now situation, if you can get Greinke for the next few years, by trading a couple guys that have a 1% chance of being that valuable, you gotsta pull the trigger. And there's a TON of concern right now about his health after those 3 consecutive starts...them pushing him back in what SHOULD be the most critical week of the season for the Brewers, playing against the Cardinals and another division rival. RED FLAG. Or there's another psychological/social-anxiety issue cropping up for him with all this trade talk, no idea, just speculation all around him.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:21 AM) Why do you defend Viciedo so adamantly? Because you're only thinking short-term and not big picture here. You're welcome to start negotiating with Zack's agent on an extension RIGHT NOW. It would be a better use of your time, actually. If you can get him to sign for $80 million and 4 years, then, by all means, trade Viciedo, fine, whatever. But he will get a 5-6 year contract and I'm not even convinced that kind of huge contract for Greinke is wise in the first place. Otherwise, minor league pieces or someone from our bullpen. What makes you think we can afford him if the Brewers, who have been a cash machine the last 2-3 seasons, can't?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:03 AM) At this point in his career he is an offensive liability when there is a RH'er on the mound. Can that change over the course of time, sure You're the type of prospect person that I do not understand. Thank goodness Morel hurt his back or we'd be 2 games out and you guys would be clamoring about how "we're still in it" and "he hasn't cost us any games", "his development is important." In the White Sox current position, you play to win the game. Any edge you can get trumps player development. This franchise doesn't have enough World Series to fritter away this year's golden opportunity to of all things player development. You're honestly going to compare Brent Morel/Youkilis to Juan Pierre/Dayan Viciedo?????????????????? You're being disingenuous. Gordon Beckham has had 3 full years to prove himself and he's 26. His OPS is 17th/21st of qualifying 2B. His career batting average at USCF is close to .225. Yet you continue to want to pick on Viciedo. You also aren't for platooning DeAza, Dunn and AJ. Have you looked at their splits vs. LHP? The White Sox have a better record against RHP than LHP. Why is that?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 08:04 AM) There is the problem. You can't take those things out. They happened. His ego also ruined years worth of players and acquisitions that could have added to that trophy case. But it was more important for Ozzie to be right, and to be the center of attention, than to get the best out of guys like Nick Swisher, Javy Vazquez, Alex Rios, and Adam Dunn. It was more important for his kid to get a lot of money and a high draft position than what was going on in the field. The Sox even hired one of his kids to scout, just to shut him up, and instead he blasts the organization. You want a villain, you are listening to him butcher the English language. We could have had way more than just 2005 if Ozzie could STFU every once in a while, and put himself second, instead of first. All Ozzie is, is a realty show whore anymore. At least when he played baseball and first started managing, he seemed to care somewhat about the game. Now he is trying to bully 19 year olds to get a few more seconds on SportsCenter. Not only was it time for Ozzie to leave, the longer he is gone, the more I am convinced he f***ed us out of at least division titles, and maybe more, over his last few years. You can hate on Kenny and Coop, but they are still here, and guess what, the Sox are winning with half of the talent they had last year. 2010 for sure....not sure if we can blame Ozzie for 2006, though. Swapping out Thome for Kotsay/Jones alone tipped the balance against us. That said, the 2010 Twins team was a monster with RISP all season long...but if we had Thome and they didn't, it would have been a nailbiter. Just as importantly, having Ozzie around totally screwed up the Swisher relationship. Ventura would have handled that one a lot better, undoubtedly. We could have used the money we spent on Dunn for any number of things had we been able to keep Swisher as a viable player.

I think it's worth a shot. Obviously only if Danks is done for the season...and Quintana might hit a brickwall at some point with the number of pitches he has thrown this season already compared to seasons past.

He will soon reach the legendary status of Anderson Gomes, Luis Silverio and Paulo Orlando.

Have same feeling the day before Arnie Munoz pitched against the Expos, lol.

Still, why shouldn't we be picking on Beckham, too? Because he's Harrelson's favorite? Or DeAza, Dunn and AJ against lefties? The point is, they need to gain faith in their ability to hit lefties and that will never happen by sitting. Dunn's done it this year much more frequency, DeAza had two clutch hits last night. AJ has also come through quite a few times in those situation against lefties this year. We'll never know if both Dunn and Rios were lifted from the line-up and benched for the last 6-8 weeks of the 2011 season what would have happened with both of them, but I sincerely doubt either one of them would be playing as well as they are, especially Rios. The flip side of this is that Tyler Flowers has completely regressed as a hitter because someone with a long swing like that (or Lillibridge) is going to be doomed playing once ever 10-15 days (3-5 plate appearances in a single game). The only way for young players to learn is to play everyday. The worst thing we could do would be to make him a platoon player at age 23. It's just insane, especially when 65% of his plate appearances during the season come against righties.

"We fell behind, simple as that,’’ Saltalamacchia said. “We were 3-and-0, so we had to get it over the plate and threw a strike, 3-and-1. We threw a fastball down and it was strike two and at that point we got to go with his good stuff.’’ Youkilis’s eighth homer of the season, and fourth with the White Sox, gave the visitors’ a 6-2 lead and spelled the end of Lester’s lackluster night. “Youk’s a great hitter,’’ Lester said. “When you don’t make a strike there, that’s what he’ll do.’’ boston.com/sports