caulfield12

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:48 PM) And our team is led by Kenny Williams? Really? Losing is no fun. When there are 2 baseball teams in the same city and one is named the Cubs, the White Sox and their nonlegions of fans (compared to the Flubs) cannot afford to be irrelevant in May every year the next 10 years. 3-5 years, we've managed to pull that off 3 times in the last 30-40 years...a full decade, with Epstein lurking and the potential of a new stadium with Emmanuel as mayor, no way. JR and KW/Hahn have to get this one right.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:44 PM) Great post. I wait for some of the stat people to answer a nice, simple question like this. Our team would be so much better and maybe even some fans would attend the games this season if this winter we just ate the salaries of Dunn/Rios and make trades assuming they were gonzo. We trade a guy who actually tries like Quentin and ocasionally gets red-hot (Quentin is an exciting bat) and keep Mr. Nonchalant Rios (oh I look forward to him gliding after balls this season), when we could just release him. Anybody who buys a season ticket with Rios penciled in for 140 games has to be in need of counseling. Because then we're having to pay $40 million in one lump-sum payment, and there's at least 50/50 odds we'll get a return to respectability out of one or both those guys, and especially Peavy in 2012. Let's say you buy 100 shares of a stock at $80 and the value's all the way down to $20-30. The White Sox believe (and most fans here as well) that those contracts are more likely to return to the $55-75 price range than continuing to decline to $10-15. If Dunn comes anywhere close to as historically as bad a season as 2011, he might walk away...Rios, not so much. At any rate, the only way to get those contracts off the book is packaging them to the mega-rich teams that could absorb that type of hit and would consider it a win if they could bring in Floyd/Crain/Thornton/Ramirez/Danks (2013) as well. The Yankees and Red Sox have shown no willingness to spend that kind of money this offseason. The Rangers and Angels are overextended. That leaves very few teams, with the current state of the Mets and Dodgers.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:35 PM) Why? The plan is obviously to play as many aging slowfooted veterans as we can to go with nobodies on the mound so we can be out of the race in early June. White Sox baseball slogan: Rebuilding is so much fun or Relevant? Who Needs Relevance? Seriously, did you watch Frasor pitch last season? You think that's irreplaceable? Clearly, he's lost more than notch or two off his stuff from overuse the last 5 years. Also find it amusing when AA drafts those guys and overslots, he's a baseball version of Houdini or Billy Beane...but when the White Sox trade for them, they're in firesale or crisis mode. If we actually were in that position, we would have traded Danks already. The only two players we're likely to trade between now and April (and that could severely harm our chances of being competitive) are the same ones we've all been talking about, Matt Thornton and Gavin Floyd, and Crain, too. Mark Teahen and his wife made the White Sox relevant? Winning games and divisions is what makes us relevant...some of that in 2012 would go a long way towards what's currently ailing the organization and its fans. By the way, Quentin was a slow-footed veteran (of 29). The only slow-footed guy we really should have kept was Jim Thome two seasons ago. Dye, also gone. But we still have Konerko, Dunn and AJ to pacify Greg's desire for Molina-esque speed out of the box...and AJ's really the best baserunner on the team, and the 2nd best I've seen in the last 20 years on the Sox, after Jose Valentin.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:15 PM) You sure are confident that the majority of the Sox farm system will pan out. Considering the Sox track record of producing adequate major league contributors via the farm, I think you should lessen your expectations a bit. Just have much more confidence when we target/acquire other teams' players than drafting/projecting/developing our own guys. That area of the scouting department always seems to do a much better job, for whatever reason.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) Matt Thornton gave us three years as arguably the best left-handed reliever in baseball. That ain't an easy role to fill. And so was Damaso Marte, KW's done it twice in under-the-radar deals. I would highly doubt Hernandez ever becomes THAT good, but anything's possible if you give Cooper talented guys to work with. We've seen too many examples of it to list, and a few noted failures along the way, too.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:10 PM) Trayce Thompson has all the ability in the world to be a A prospect. Most of these are professional baseball players because they have that potential. That's the point, if you have 10 pitchers like Molina and Zach Stewart who can all potentially be 2-3-4 starters in the big leagues, clearly you're much better off with at least 1-2 of them eventually succeeding in having that impact. Now we have 3 with Castro. You might stretch it and include 4 with Hector Santiago. Axelrod still looks like a back-end guy. In our entire system, the only position players with the raw talent to have an impact are Thompson, Walker and Mitchell, and those are looking like 10-15% odds at best right now. With 10 of them in the system, another couple will actually make it, and hopefully at least one becomes an All-Star caliber player.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:06 PM) Bingo. The only impact (arguable) prospect Kenny has acquired thus far is Nestor Molina. Disagree. One of the two guys from the Padres, and possibly Marinez from the Marlins, will stick with big league team before July 31st. We just opened up another spot in the pen with the Frasor move. As far as defining impact, Hernandez could evolve into the Matt Thornton role quite easily. That LH reliever slot in the 7th-8th inning is plenty impactful, IMO. Get the general point...let's just see how the next 24 months play out and then we can argue about all of these guys, including Zach Stewart.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) We've loaded up on C/C+ prospects. That really can't move a system that much, really at all. The kid we got from the Padres has all the ability in the world to be a B+ or better, just like Molina. You start the Futures Game, that means everyone is baseball is aware of your existence.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:03 PM) It serves no good purpose to let anyone know what the plan is. Hey, isn't that what Mao and Stalin said...?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 02:00 PM) The all-mighty AA gave him third round money. He has to be good. Knew that one was coming, lol. Where's j4l with his take today, watching NFL or sleeping off the weekend still? I sincerely hope we can't still be the worst MLB farm system in the game at this point. Let's hope we can progress to 25th-27th.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:56 PM) Then why didn't the Sox draft him in the 3rd or 4th round? Because KW didn't have any more kids available (at least with the same family name)....? Sorry, bad joke. Poor KW

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) You are really stretching that comparison. Apparently Danks wasn't valued as much as we must have thought either and he got $13M a year to stay. I think what I am most upset about is the complete lack of firm and understandeable direction and the willingness to overlook past fiascos made by our GM. And only $8 million this year. It's not until the future forward years the numbers really pick up, when his limited NTC kicks in correspondingly. We're still in "win now/trade in 2013" mode with Danks, in all likelihood. There's flexibility to go either way depending on 2012 results and attendance figures.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:51 PM) Drop the draft pick rankings stuff. Both were guys who went way over slots in the later rounds. Jaye was paid like a third rounder. You would have expected one of the friendly "White Sox Family" draft picks to have made an impact by now, based on their draft positions and bonuses, haha. We've had some comical ones with the kids of KW, Ozzie, Shaffer, someone's daughter, I forget who it was?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:48 PM) We're at about $97 million in commitments, then another $6 million or so in league-minimum guys to fill out the roster, then there's a $4 million buyout for Peavy at the end of the year. So we're to that mythical $20 million cut that many insiders projected, based on disappointing box office returns. And you have the mystery numbers for Jake Peavy coming back in 2010/11 in the form of insurance subsidies/write-offs. And we still have Crain, Ohman, Thornton, Floyd and possibly AJ that could all go in the next 3-4 months...and Konerko if they go off the deep end. Peavy getting traded would mean he's nearly in 2007 form, and that puts us right back in the playoff hunt, but saving that $4 million buyout would be a nice bonus that could be invested elsewhere.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) If you would have read what I posted, I'm not mad at this particular trade, but some are going to make these "prospects" out to be far more than they really are. For Quentin, I'm not upset they traded him, it was very obvious it would happen. I think the return is like this return. Nothing. I believe he should be worth a little more than that. Both of the guys from the Padres could impact our team as early as ST, particularly Hernandez. And the other one was 2-3 in the Jays' system the previous year, so it's not like the guy is chopped liver...all things considered, the return for Quentin was much better, and the arguments were probably about equivalent for dumping both of them without any return by not offering arbitration. If you could get the same type of return for Will Ohman, wouldn't you do it? Now, if we traded Crain and Thornton and received nothing back, it would be a shocker. Still, Matty's lost a lot of shine from his star because of 2011, his age, concerns about a fall-off by a tick or two in his stuff...his quasi-closer salary, etc. However, with no FA lefties better than the likes of Darren Oliver and Arthur Rhodes, KW controls a very valuable market if he chooses to sell off Matt to the highest bidder out there, like the Yankees (potentially).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:41 PM) The one good thing about this kind of deal, targeting guys who have issues or are really low in an organization, is that just as the Sox can't project them very well...neither can the team giving the players up. Sometimes, that's how you get a real steal: you target a guy who is low enough that even the team which currently holds him doesn't know what they have. See Liriano, Francisco for an example...Nathan and Bonser were a lot more polished at the time and seemed the primary targets.

A five way deal could get us a Pujols or Hanley Ramirez for sure. It always works for annoying callers during the post-game show. Or let's just package a random 10-12 of these guys with Dunn/Rios and some team out there would be foolish not to take TEN players back, right?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 11:40 AM) The last 3 big guys to sign in this sort of pattern out of Cuba (Alexei, Viciedo, Chapman) signed contracts that were basically "rookie" contracts, where the team commits x number of dollars, but then has control of that player until they would normally become free agents. So, the team would get 6-7 years of control of the player once he gets to the big leagues. A team could always write the deal to allow them to become a FA earlier, but the recent trend has been against that. That's what the Yankees did with Contreras's original deal; the team was required to cut him loose after the deal ended regardless of accumulated service time. That has not been the case with these last guys. So, if a team signed him, kept him in the minors for 1.5 years, called him up mid-2013, they'd have him under control until ~2019 assuming they offered him arbitration every year. Are his salary raises in years 4-6 based on his contract numbers preceding it (not being able to cut more than 15%, etc.) or based on a statistical formula for what guys all around baseball SHOULD be making in those years, such as Danks/Quentin/Crede/Jenks, etc., when they were with the Sox and going back and forth with just one year deals and no long-term extensions? What would/could we predict Viciedo's 2014 salary at? It can't be based on the increase from his small (relatively) salary next year...?

We also gave up Jose Valentin, Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee for essentially nothing as well. Pods and Vizcaino...essentially, it's more important what they do with all the money they are saving BY NOT PAYING Quentin, Buehrle, Frasor, Teahen, Edwin Jackson, Santos, Vizquel, Pena, Castro, and potentially Thornton/Ohman, Crain, AJ, and Floyd. Cespedes, whoever it is, this year or next.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 01:23 PM) Well, we can then add De Aza, Viciedo, Reed, Axelrod, Flowers, and maybe 1 more bullpen guy like Infante or just give up on Stewart as a starter and put him there. Maybe Santiago thrown in as well if we can clear a spot for a LHP in the bullpen. We could use a backup IF. You don't think that Lillibridge, Oswaldo Martinez, Tyler Kuhn or Escobar could fill that role? Or you want a more experienced/seasoned guy? In other words, we essentially have spent $700,000 more on last year's draft...another way to look at it. If you add that $700,000 investment, what would that make the Sox total for 2011 signees that are now in the system?

Phil Rogers was already ripping on the idea that the Padres would get rid of a LHP (Hernandez) who actually threw 92-95 MPH with steady/reliable control in today's Tribune. Rightfully...pins the future of the KW regime on the 2012-2013 offensive output of Viciedo, Rios, Dunn and Beckham.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 31, 2011 -> 11:10 PM) It's bizarre to me that competing in 2012 is so important. The goal is sustained excellence. Even if our best SS prospect (Saladino) is close to being a major league regular, he won't make much of an impact until 2013 at the earliest. You have Ramirez signed for the next 4 years, ages 31-32-33-34 in his contract. Essentially, according to most here, the only two players who are "trustworthy" offensively are Konerko and Ramirez, and Paulie's due for a decline at some point, yes? Other than that, the surest thing in the current projected line-up is Viciedo, unless you count DeAza. AJ will be AJ, which is about major league average if you consider all aspects of his game. So that leaves the building to occur around Morel, Beckham, Flowers (maybe), Lillibridge, DeAza, Rios and Dunn (the last 2 due to their contracts being as immovable as the iceberg than sank the Titanic). Of that aforementioned list of 7 hitters, are there any that you (currently) believe would be connected with the term "sustained" excellence? If you start over from scratch around a young starting rotation and youthful bullpen, you're going to have to hit every single position player acquisition, FA/international signing and June 1st round draft pick right on the head...and almost all of them to hit the majors in a 1-2 year "wave" because if it's just 1-2-3 players per year, by the time they're peaking in years 4-6 of their careers, they're all becoming expensive at the same time and you're only buying yourself that 2-3 year window (realistically) when they're all making maximum contributions and affordable simultaneously. With your theory, only Sale, Molina, Addison Reed (and not even Reed, although there has to be a closer and Reed on the cheap makes 10X more sense than Thornton/Crain/Frasor, etc.) are not to be traded, and from the position players, you're basically asking to get rid of them all, including Viciedo. You haven't said much on the Konerko front, but one would have to assumed that Paul Konerko and forward-looking sustained excellence is a bit of an oxymoron.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/de...ntin-white-sox/ Dick, you're really not going to give up, lol. I think if you took ANY GM in baseball who had an 11 year track record with one team, you could find 25+ dubious transactions, like the Berry/Barry one, Wells/Fogg/Lowe for Ritchie, Durham for Adkins, etc. We're just going to have to deal with him (KW) for at least another two years, so we might as well embrace that fact and come to terms with it fully.

http://local.sandiego.com/sports/padres-se...n-trades-rumors Of course, there are some key differences with the Sox, Padres and other teams. We haven't shown a willingness to go through 3-5 years of losing/late 80's and 90's "these kids can play" seasons with long-range development as the strategic plan. We haven't been able to pile up high draft picks, nor have we shown a "concerted willingness" to spend much internationally (beyond Viciedo) and on the June draft. However, we clearly have the ability to post a payroll between $100-130 million, compared to other teams like the Pirates, Royals, Padres, Indians, Blue Jays, Rays, A's, etc., that don't have the organizational/front office resources to jack up their spending. Just thought it was a good "flip side" read to the tenor of most posts (including many of mine!) the last 2-3 seasons of "malaise ball." Now we're oscillating between "complete rebuild" and "rebuilding on the fly" camps. If nothing else, some of us (obviously not Milkman, J4L or Fathom) are starting to buy into the Kool Aid that we can be competitive in 2012, while others remain rightfully a bit skeptical or even cynical where it comes to KW.

Castro, 23, went 7-8 with a 5.63 earned run average in 22 starts between Double-A San Antonio and Triple-A Tucson last season. Going into the 2011 season, Castro was considered one of the top three prospects in the Padres system. But after six starts with Tucson (2-2, 10.17 ERA), the right-hander was detoured to extended spring training and returned to San Antonio, where he finished stronger with the Missions (5-6, 4.33 ERA in 16 starts). Originally signed as a non-drafted free agent in May of 2006, Castro was 29-33 with a 4.24 ERA in 117 games (113 starts), over six minor league seasons in the Padres organization. The left-handed Hernandez, 22, went 10-3 with a 3.49 ERA in 28 games (18 starts) across three levels in the Padres organization last season. The Venezuela native split the majority of his 2011 season between Single-A Lake Elsinore and Double-A San Antonio, going 8-2 with a 3.03 ERA and 87 strikeouts against 16 walks between the two clubs. He also made four starts for Triple-A Tucson last season and has a fastball in the 92-95 mph range.