caulfield12

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 02:15 PM) I'd honestly take Santiago, but then Ohman is replacing Santiago which won't work. Both Thornton and Santiago have the ability to get righties out, something Ohman is virtually incapable of doing. For perspective's sake, Santiago's numbers since the Oakland blow-up: 2.75 ERA, 1.22 WHIP, .194/.318/.306/.623, ~ 9 K/9, ~ 4.5 BB/9, in 19.2 IP, 16 games And the control has actually been better than that, because in his first appearance versus Cleveland after that Oakland game, he walked two and allowed a hit in 1 IP. You just simply can't trust Ohman against right handed pitching, and that's where the problem lies. If the Sox are interested in doing that at all, then they have to believe that one of Leesman, Septimo, Veal, Rodriguez, or Hernandez can handle being the second lefty out of the pen so Ohman can remain a garbage and LOOGY guy. Without knowing anything about what they throw, my gut tells me to go with Veal, but the 3 I'd look at right away would be Veal, Septimo, and Rodriguez, probably in that order. Like I said though, no idea what they offer, but there are, even for minor league and advanced age players, interesting choices among the minor league pitchers. That's if you were to even trade Thornton for Youkilis. At this point, I'd say Youkilis is worth a shot, but Thornton has more value than that. Haven't looked at the splits yet, but Quintana was death to righties in the beginning this year. Maybe it has evened out. Of course, the problem is that you need him to stay in the starting rotation.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 12:44 PM) Not that you are wrong, but 3 of the 4 seasons we have had Rios, he has been worth more than he has made. 2011 being the odd-year-out, and it just so happen to be SOOO bad that it actually negates all the positive value he provided in those other 3 seasons for us. Huh? 2010 the first half and 2012 (so far)....but 2009 and 2011?

I just hope he's better than the lost former phenom hotshot we got, Felix Diaz. Although Feliz at least beat the Cubs, that was one of his career highlights.

Indians up 8-0 behind Masterson...StL up 2-1, top of 8 in Motown

All things considered, to get through 3 innings with no runs or just 1 scoring is a minor miracle. Now if the Sox only could find their offense.

QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:50 AM) I'll never understand why athletes show up to work out of shape. I know its baseball but still. Viciedo is fat, ramirez is skinny....its like dude, come on. Your body is your paycheck you gotta take care of it. Tony Gwynn says hello. It seemingly worked with Dunn...and don't think Dayan would lose any of his power if he slimmed down 10-15 pounds. He's never going to be svelte, any more than Carlos Lee or Josh Kruk could be, or Spanky Lavalliere. We'll have to watch it with Hawkins, our draft choice. He was around 270-300 when he was 13.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:44 AM) Or the Sox can just win tonight Although seeing if Greg can top his diatribe/vitriol from last night at least gives one something to look forward to, regardless of the outcome of the game. Life is too short not to find something amusing or enjoyable about it.

How long can Hudson sit on the bench without becoming a distraction? He's like AJ, having him sitting around too much isn't going to be a good idea.

Or we'll be in 4th place by the end of next week. Still waiting for the Greg's head to explode show/performance later tonight. Coming to a website near you.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 07:21 AM) OK, show me another team who cries about not being able to acquire players because attendance isn't up to snuff. Just one. You mention the Rangers spending money. You may be interested to know according to Forbes, the White Sox had more revenue than the Rangers last season. Attendance is overblown. Its not how many are at the games, its how much was paid to be there. If the Sox really wanted to sell the last 7000 to 10000 seats to last nights game, they would have had no problem doing so. They picked pricing them to where they would not be sold. The fact is its on the White Sox to draw fans. No one has an obligation to go to games. A restaurant doesn't say we will get you better food if you buy this crap first. They shouldn't even be publicly discussing it. They should be spending time trying to figure out how to fix it. Saying you would get better but can't because you're not getting enough business in a way is just showing you agree that your product should be better. Seriously, the franchise could probably be sold for close to $1 billion right now. If they don't feel they have the funds to properly run it, maybe they should sell. The other thing is, we have heard this so many times in the past, then Peavy gets traded for. Rios gets claimed. Manny get claimed. Edwin Jackson is acquired. Enough answering attendance questions KW. The Sox revenue was top 10 last year. That's the number that matters, not the total attendance figure. I just maintain if they lowered some prices, they would get more people into the stands and those extras would more than make up for the loss on the higher priced tickets. And stop "selling" talent for money back instead of just taking on salary. See Chris Young/Javy deal. Another example would be ditching Jackson just to save the money on Teahen. Adkins/Durham. Holding onto underperforming players like MacDougal and Linebrink instead of cutting the loss to the performance of the major league team. Selling Quentin and Santos for less than they probably were worth. Start running the team in a way that's conducive to winning for a stretch of 2-3 years, not just one year at a time.

I'll quote greg/al davis... Just win, baby! (Won't argue the Royals are better than us quite yet, however). Managers who do nothing are better than micromanagers like LaRussa, Scioscia and Maddon!!!

And the Indians are red hot now, just like we were... 5-0, about to sweep the Reds, who were the hottest team in baseball coming into that series.

Gallagher: Watermelons : Greg: Swept at home by Cubs We'd be 1/2 game out of last in the AL East. In the AL Central, the Royals could be 3 1/2 games out after tonight's action.

666 minor league OPS. Escobar won't hit, and SS is his best defensive position by far. It's like playing Vizquel there, but I would give Omar the slight advantage defensively because of his experience and savvy. Speaking of interesting line-ups today, the Indians are starting Jose Lopez at 2B so they can keep Chisenhall in the line-up. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:18 AM) Are you freaking kidding me? Their owner is gonna die in a few years and he wants a championship so bad that he is willing to spend as much money as possible to finally get that ring. How is that anything like the Cardinals? It is way more like the Sam Zell Cubs. I should have said the 1980's and early 90's Cardinals/Royals (when Kauffman was spending and fans loved their team and owner). The Cards have become more corporate and bottom line oriented, although not quite the Royals' David Glass/Wal-Mart model. And it helped to have McGwire bridge to Pujols... Those franchises have superstars, or had them at least (George Brett, for example). And paid them handsomely. Same as the Tigers of today. Then again, the Brewers lost Fielder and Sabathia...but look at where that franchise was 20 years ago, compared to today. You can say it happened simply because of Selig's influence and the new stadium, but there have been other factors at play, such as their tremendous farm system.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:23 AM) Their average attendance has increased from 21,290 to 22,647, WOW! They have had 3 night games this month with under 20k in attendance. They are on pace to win 74 games, they haven't won more than 75 since 2003. When you consider how many games they lost in a row at home, it was historical. It was like our 4-18 stretch in April/May of 2011 that for all intents and purposes wiped out our season and attendance for the remainder of the year. To weather that storm in the beginning of the season and still be outdrawing the White Sox handily when they're the smallest market in baseball (fanbase and media rights), they've shown some strong resiliency. Keep in mind, the White Sox had been in first place for over 3 weeks before last night. Look at the Royals' attendance in that first half of 2003, you'll see a HUGE effect just that season. Or whenever Zach Greinke was pitching for them. Do we even have an appreciable blip up for Chris Sale starts? And games won doesn't matter so much in our division as taking the division. You could conceivably have an 84-85-86-87 win team it this year. Probably not, as we said the same last year and Tigers just took off and crushed everyone down the stretch run, but it's possible this year again.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:14 AM) The Tigers are seemingly in a position of regularly losing money on big contracts because they have an independently wealthy owner willing to do that. And now they have 3 DH's as a consequence. And Illitch is getting closer and closer to the end, so he doesn't care, he wants a title. Despite how badly the plan has worked out on the field so far, talent almost always trumps everything else...at least in a division like ours, except for the anomaly of the White Sox/Tigers vs. the Twins from 2001-2010 with the exceptions of 2005/2006 (although the Twins did win the AL Central) and 2008.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 01:08 AM) Well, the Marlins will be trying to trade him either this offseason or next year, so it's at least an option if we want to light money on fire. You mean if Loria wants to take a short-term loss by subsidizing the deal (ala Javy or Contreras) or they want to risk greater losses on the back end. They will be the ones burning one safehouse (Fast Five movie analogy) in order to prevent a total loss in the end. How many MLB teams would pick up that Buehrle contract if it was made available, ala Rios in 2009?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:06 AM) GO ROYALS!!!! That's instructive, at least. Despite them being the worst team in the majors at home, their many offseasons of hype, high draft choices and farm system prospect features had the fans buying in more than ever before this past offseason. They're outdrawing us by 2,000 fans despite how badly they started out of the gate. Last year, they would have been dead in the water. This year, they're right in it and have a great chance to make a run. Fans in Kansas City are so similar to White Sox fans in being fair weather fans, but they do have a beautiful ballpark and reasonably priced parking/tickets/concessions, so that's another factor. But of all the teams in MLB, our fanbase is the most like Royals, Indians and Reds fans. They simply won't support bad or average teams. And kudos go to the Tigers and Brewers for changing the operating models of those franchises and modeling themselves as much as possible after the Cardinals.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 05:54 AM) Yeah, and that's really accurate, considering how many of our young arms are pitching in the MLB right now. Those are almost exclusively bullpen arms. Our two biggest trades, Stewart and Molina, are showing minimal or no return (so far). What quality starting pitcher, other than Sale, have we produced? (I think it's a bit TOO early to crow about Quintana long-term, many of us were congratulating KW on Humber last year and penciling him into 2013-14-15 rotations at a low cost and that's not looking so good right now). This all goes back to the riverboat gambling nature of KW giving up too quickly on Hudson and then adding on to the waste by throwing money at Manny Ramirez.

But it's back to the same old issues. Instead of saying we're 27th in attendance, they should be focusing on the fact that we're probably 12th-15th in revenue... Revenue generated >>> Tickets sold It's like comparing movie box office, attendance, etc., from 10 or 20 years ago to today. Of course, you have to take into consideration inflation, the affect of the internet and pirating, IMAX, 3D, marketing/production costs. In our business/operating model, tickets sold and revenues generated from those tickets only account for 20-25% of the bottom line these days. They have numerous and diverse revenue streams that create dollars in other ways. 1) If you want fans to believe in a ballclub, it generally needs to be roughly 10 games or higher than .500 at the All-Star Break....evidence currently suggests we're simply returning to the mean of 5 games above or 5 games below .500, which has been our band range all season long, the worst was 4 games under and best was 8 games over. 2) For the 1,000th time, White Sox baseball is competing with more and more options than ever before in this economy. $100 for one person to attend versus the convenience of watching from home, it's a no brainer for the majority of cash-strapped families out there. The fact of the matter is that the White Sox (as greg likes to point out) have been anything from average to terrible at home over the 2009-2012 stretch. And at least SOME of that has to be attendance related. Look at the attendance from 2005/06/08 when the team was playing its best, it was supported by at least 25-30K fans per game and quite often 30,000+. Coincidence? I think not. In the middle of their "dynamic pricing/maximizing revenue" focus, they've forgotten that perception is 90% of reality. Fans tune in game after game to see empty stands, it doesn't seem like the kind of place to go to have fun. People follow trends, bandwagons, what's popular. They have to increase the supply of fans or stimulate the demand or both.... 3) Along with not playing well at home, the feeling around the ballpark and organization is largely a negative one...and this impacts every team that comes to play at USCF, in the sense that those players would much rather play in front of packed houses and appreciative fans, like they currently have in cities like St. Louis or Detroit. Call it the Carlos Beltran Won't Go to Cleveland Death Spiral Effect. The Indians have actually done a very good job (or great job) of building from their farm system, clearly they USED to have one of the best fanbases in all of sports, but it has been decimated by the economy and two almost complete rebuilds and payroll slashings. They can't generate the revenue from ticket prices OR media, so they have to roll the dice on signing young players to extensions early and cancelling out a year or two of free agency. In the end, at least it SEEMS to fans like they have a plan, whether the fans like it or not, a strategic vision of how they're getting back to competitiveness is being presented to them. And the Indians have responded by playing great at home for most of last year and at least decently this year, compared to the Sox. Whereas our plan is the Mississippi Riverboat Gambler approach. Drafting Hawkins and Barnum was the first time it seemed they made a concerted effort to bring young impact bats into an organization that plays 50% of their games in one of the most homer friendly parks in baseball. Thanks to Ozzie, our roster has been set back a couple of years by his stubborness of wanting to play NL style ball in a band box.

Zach=Jeff Marquez Squared or Cubed

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,2642783.column The inevitable "maybe we should bring Mark Buehrle back" column by Phil Rogers.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 01:52 PM) Real mature response. I happen to be insanely mad at losing two AT HOME to the Cubs. It's like we want to be .500 against them this year after sweeping them the first time. Zach Stewart was a gimme. Now we can't hit ... against the Cubs?? WTF. We just ran over teams like a freight train in that 14-2 stretch, and the Indians' announcers just said...well, there's nothing you can do to stop it, just be glad it's only 3 games and wait for the next time you face them. As soon as we lost those two games in LA, the game where we couldn't get a runner across against Lynn, the bad news about Danks....it was the reverse of the lift the team experienced when Sale went back to the rotation. If they do get swept by the Cubs, at home, there's going to be a lot of "soul searching" about the direction of this club and whether the costs of adding pieces to try to compete the next 6-8 weeks without Danks is worth it...as well as the idea that you'll be tempted to push him back to replace Sale when he reaches his innings' limit.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 01:53 PM) Could you imagine how much better the Rays would be if they had Ozzie as manager letting them do whatever the f*** they wanted, instead of Joe Maddon who is always making those little tweaks? I simply love that the Sox got anything at all for that windbag piece of s***. I was listening to Tim Belcher, who's now a special assistant with the Indians. He was going on about how he hated those shifts because of the 3B having to take the throw and act as a SS ("nothing good can come out of that"), but he also was quick to mention Maddon leads the AL in shifts and that it has proven very effective for them.