caulfield12

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 19, 2012 -> 05:25 AM) I understand both sides of the argument and don't envy KW. I'd like to dump some of those contracts, but Peavy is the only with enough value to acquire a legit prospect or 2. The problem with dumping those guys is that replacements aren't available. So, you dump some money and reinvest it into younger players. However, herein lies the catch, 35th street isn't viewed as a destination for FA's. I'm 33 and we've landed 3 big FA's in my lifetime. They've lost out on a number more. The GM position for the Sox is a tough one. You can't buy a team. You have to get creative, which is one reason KW's moves have been so hit or miss. This probably the reason he's so adamant about not burning other gm's. He's needs a working relationship with them. The good thing is that there's still time. We have about 45 days til the deadline. The picture should be more clear then. Hermanson, Iguchi, Dye, El Duque, AJ None of those were splashy moves like David Wells, Dunn, Albert Belle or even Jaime Navarro, but look where it eventually led. Same with Quintana, DeAza, Jenks, Santos, Humber, Carlos Quentin..."under the radar" has always worked much better for this organization. As far as not burning other GM's, I'm sure AA isn't happy with the Santos situation, but nor are we about Molina. He's been "burned" a lot more often than not since 2008. By the DBacks, AA, Beane, and Rizzo, in particular.

White Sox dynamic ticket pricing....cutting off the nose to spite the face. Sometimes, when you think of all the strategic mistakes they've made starting with SportsVision, Harry Caray, the new ballpark and its location....it's a miracle there's still another team still left in Chicago. And yet, the White Sox are currently something like the 8th or 9th most valuable franchise in MLB. More valuable than the Cardinals, for example, which, to me, is the model for how to run an organization from top to bottom.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2012 -> 02:11 AM) Maybe it will happen. It was mentioned today that Boston has scouted the Sox the last 4 days. I wonder if KW wants Bard. The Red Sox are ready to throw the towel in on the season already? That would be shocking. Or they believe that adding Crain/Thornton/Nathan Jones and prospects (Mitchell, etc.) would be worth it for a possible frontline starter, possible bust?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2012 -> 02:08 AM) Not really. Most tickets are already sold. Their walk ups are next to nothing. Believe me, there is going to be questioning tonight when there are plenty of empty seats. They will fail to mention its at least $85 to sit downstairs and about $50 for the worst seats in the house. My couch, 46 inch Samsung, and a/c are looking really good tonight, although I'll go if I find something reasonable. The only way I would spend $100+ dollars (assuming I was actually in America or Chicago) is if Sale or Peavy or Quintana was starting. At this point in time, I'd just have ZERO interest in seeing Humber or Floyd struggle out there. Zach Stewart, I'd be even less inclined. Coca-Cola Value Packs Looking for a great value? These packs include 4 tickets, 4 Dodger Dogs, and 4 Coca-Cola's - all starting at just $18 per seat! Here's what I don't get, if Los Angeles is an even more expensive place to live than Chicago, and they're not going to loosen up on the parking and ticket prices like they do in LA, why can't they offer more food/drink specials at USCF?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2012 -> 01:57 AM) If someone took Peavy, Dunn and Rios right now, it would theoretically free up over $81 million the next 3.5 years. I think you could find a centerpiece that could excite the fanbase. Let's say we went crazy and went after Josh Hamilton. The problem is we never have any leeway to make more than one or two mistakes or the franchise is completely stuck in neutral, like right now. The right move, like a Miguel Cabrera (with the requisite minor league pieces being in place to get him) or Victor Martinez in 2011...you're set. But one false move, like holding Ramirez too long or Danks' contract being another disaster, you're stuck again in the same place. Experience should have taught KW that going after the big names wasn't what worked....it was saving the money from Magglio/Valentin/C-Lee and investing it into about 8-10 mostly veteran players and having great starting pitching and a lights out bullpen. The obvious problem is that our starting pitching is short and will likely be at least one more starter short in 2013. And then you're going to ask JR to take on a multi-year contract for a pitcher after watching what has happened with Peavy, Dunn, Rios and possibly Danks now? No way would that be a good investment.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2012 -> 01:23 AM) I will continue to reiterate that I would not make a deal to add a starter. The Sox have 6 guys capable of pitching (if you include Quintana and he should be included in this mix for the time being). If the Sox want to make an upgrade, add a veteran reliever (although I'm fine with the pen as is) or pick up a 3rd baseman. That is all I would do. Otherwise let the young players develop and see if the Sox can somehow get there magic back and win the division. You have a lot more faith in Cooper, Floyd and Humber than many do. You're probably right. 3B is an easier fix than adding pitching, which is always prohibitively expensive. If nothing else, we can always refer back to Holmberg/Hudson for Jackson to scare ourselves straight from making another desperation move like that which paralyzes our future. For all we know, one of those guys will come around. Then again, we also know Quintana won't continue to post a 1.5 ERA, either. And we do know that at some point, Sale's future and present will collide around the 150-170 IP mark. I just wish KW knew what he was doing and that there were better options to inspire confidence than Stewart, Molina, Castro and Axelrod.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2012 -> 01:40 AM) Rios, Dunn and to a much lesser extent, Peavy, are not about maxing out value per se. Its about being a one time opportunity to get out of contracts that can strangle you in the future. And again, I don't think it will happen, I don't think it can happen. I'm just saying if it was an option, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But then you start playing this game, then Ramirez and Danks might be contracts in the same boat. So where do you stop? Then you trade Thornton and Floyd and maybe Crain, then what's the point of having AJ and Konerko around any longer? That's the flaw in this whole "band aid" approach, as soon as things are looking good, another two more holes in the dike will pop up and there won't be enough money/attendance/minor league depth to make a big enough move. The only way we can increase revenues is actually the bump from the attendance the year after a deep playoff run. Otherwise, the fans will just sit back on their hands and knees and wait until something is proven to them conclusively.

Here's the problem, when we do trade our prime players like Santos and Edwin Jackson, what do we have to show for it? Molina and Stewart doesn't inspire any confidence. I guess you can blame Paddy for those, but KW is ultimately accountable. Now Dick Allen and I are on opposite sides of the argument. Pretty funny stuff. In the end, it's true, we might have held on to Ramirez, Thornton and Gavin Floyd too long. What's done is done. But can anyone really have confidence that we're going to get back value or replace those salaries with anything resembling superstar caliber talent? At best, it's going to be piecing together a roster with complementary parts that gel into a team, in the face of the monster that is Verlander/Cabrera/Fielder. That's why we need Chris Sale to counter. For Viciedo to live up to expectations. But if we keep trading all these pieces because we're afraid they'll lose value, then we'll end up like the Oakland A's. And even they tried to break that trend with Cespedes. In the end, there has to be a centerpiece to build your team around. Maybe it will be Hawkins, but that's a 3-4-5 year project in all likelihood. In the meantime, we have to protect the franchise from the very real likelihood that our attendance ends up in the teen's for half a decade before we finally have another team to compete for the AL Central. The attendance for this series, during the week....will be very telling. There's still a lot of skepticism about this team, and it's perfectly reflected in the back and forth in this thread. Nobody wants to get attached to any of the players when there's not a belief that they'll be around for long and Konerko and AJ could easily be the next to go, severing all connections with 2005.

One has to wonder how much the garbage that Sandler's put out for most of the last 2-3 years has finally caught up with him? Most aren't blaming Tom Cruise for the failure that is Rock Of Ages, but Sandler's deserving a lot of the blame for the complacency that set in with his production company.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 19, 2012 -> 12:24 AM) To think we could have had Brandon Inge for nothing (.775 OPS with Oakland). Would Washington be willing to unload Ryan Zimmerman? He's clearly not fitting in to the whole youth movement, and is getting pretty expensive. That said, if you're willing to gamble on a contract, he'd be worth it. Rumor has it Philly is getting close to fire sale territory if we thought Placido Polanco at this stage of his career was an upgrade. Youk would, honestly, have to be dirt cheap both in cost to acquire as well as cost to play. Always 3-4 years too late. Polanco would have been a perfect 2 hole hitter for this team and could have allowed us to shift Beckham to a more natural spot, although he's doing decently there.

The future's even MORE NOW because of Peavy being on the way out and not knowing how long Sale or even Quintana can keep performing this well. With us unlikely to retain Gavin Floyd (at the present moment), when will there be a better chance to take the AL Central? Are DET, CLE and KC likely to be weaker in the future? By the logic of trading Dunn, Rios and Peavy, we should also be trading Addison Reed and annointing Nathan Jones the closer. Then we might as well be the Oakland A's. Rios, you can understand, if you had a player who could actually contribute to replace him....and no, I don't mean Fukudome or Lillibridge or Danks. If you're going to go ahead and deal Dunn, then what's the point of having Konerko and AJ and Thornton and Crain and Ramirez still around? The odds of being able to compete in 2013 and beyond without Dunn and Peavy aren't going to be that great anyway. Are we really buying this is a possible return to the 2004-05 acquisitions cycle, we're just going to dump all those big salaries and magically come up with another team on the fly with all the savings...? Why didn't we just do that in the first place, instead of going for the big names (which comes with big contracts)?

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 02:56 PM) They need to deal for Matt Dominguez. He's 23, in AAA, and a former 1st round pick that is blocked by Hanley. He's elite defensively and has potential to hit at least at a servicable level in the bigs. Who would we have to trade to get him? And what are the odds that he could actually hit .225 or above and be serviceable offensively right off the bat?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) I guarantee you KC is going to finish ahead of the still dysfunctional Sox. Sweeping the Cubs would right the ship, but Zach in Game One? Ouch. Greg, haven't we been hearing this same prediction for about 3 or 4 years now? Seriously, who is the rotation for the Royals right now? I bet most Royals fans couldn't name more than a couple of guys. When you guarantee the Royals are going to finish ahead of the White Sox, that's what makes everyone believe you're really more of a fan of other teams. If you really believe we're going to be THAT bad, why even bother to follow the White Sox? I would say it's possible we finish behind them, but I wouldn't bet any money on it happening, either. If you're going to guarantee something like that, you should have to lose something if you're wrong...like you have to admit that Tony Pena or Buddy Bell or Trey Hillman could managed the 2005 White Sox to the World Series title.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 01:41 PM) Another great post, but we've lost 12 of 16 which is very very s***ty baseball. Sox are in trouble. If we had gone 4-12, we'd be at .500. In actuality, we went 17-5 to get to 8 games over .500 and have now lost 8 of 12.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 01:08 PM) Thanks, but you misunderstand my 1/162 reference. I'm no Hawk groupie, but it's just like how Hawk (endlessly) refers to "you'll win 60, you'll lose 60, but how you do depends on what happens with the other 42." So many 1:1 battles in baseball, so many decisions that not only impact what happens later in the game, but what happens later in the week, month, and season, that we can all spend a lifetime second, third, and infinity guessing everything if we're so inclined. That's the nature of baseball. EVERY team deals with countless moments just like this (NOT just the White Sox -- most of us just follow the White Sox though). EVERY manager makes decisions that turn-out differently than how he hoped they would (NOT just Robin Ventura -- the same happened with Connie Mack, John McGraw, Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, Ozzie Guillen, or insert the name of your favorite manager here). I know 1/162 is important since they all add up, but the entire 162, the entire body-of-a-season's-work is more important. And for the record (since this post stays in the permanent record that is the internet), nobody hated Robin's decision to take out Quintana more than I did. He was breezing, dealing, and totally on auto-pilot. I'm with what I'd imagine to be a majority of people and let Q start the inning, having Reed ready if any trouble arises in the pivotal 9th. However, no way is that the "right way" or the "only way." Plenty of baseball managers and experts (real or in the reality of their own mind) would have done just what Robin did -- graciously accept Q's yeoman work and turn the 9th over to a guy who had been perfect for the year and who has a "chance" to be a long-term stud closer. I wouldn't have done that, but I think it's overly simplistic to say that many baseball lifer's wouldn't have done exactly what baseball lifer Robin Ventura in fact did do. Love talking Sox, but I'm choosing to be angsty about things I think are bigger problems -- like why intentionally handicap yourself to THAT extent by such an extreme Sunday lineup that had so little chance to score more than a run or two, losing momentum from a nice Saturday night win, and ensuring a downer of a long flight home. To this point in the year, I had been happy that Robin was staying away from getting the scrubs in all at the same time (something I thought was one of Ozzie's biggest flaws as a tactical manager). Hopefully today's mess of a game might become a memorable lesson! In all fairness, that line-up worked just fine on a weekend against the Mariners and Mr. Millwood. I remember complaining about it and was proven wrong. And hitters like Lillibridge, Fukudome and Flowers with big/long swings can't just get their timing playing once ever 10-14 days. Lillibridge actually hit two balls on the button for outs (one an amazing catch by Ethier, the other right at 2B) and had a hit, so he looked about as well as he has all season.

QUOTE (High Mileage @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 12:34 PM) Royals took the Cardinals to 15 innings today, but won the game and the series. They've won 5 of 6 by 6 runs, total. The bullpen has been great but man they are completely overworked. Myers and Odorizzi should be up soon. Paulino and Perez will be back within a week. If they are still within 5 games or less of 1st, they will be buyers at the deadline. Hopefully they bring in a starter or two. We begin a 3-game series in Houston tomorrow night. The Astros are 27-39, but 18-14 at home. And man, the Cubs are f***ing awful. But not as bad as Zach Stewart. And they do have two good starters in Dumpster and Mr. Notre Dame Prince Valiant.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 11:57 AM) We'll have to agree to disagree...I don't care who you are bringing in. I just don't. This is what happens when you try to get too cute. It comes back to bite you in the ass. You're about to score with a hot chick, but you decide you want to nail her friend too...then you end up pissing them both off and now you're not nailing anyone. Unless you have mid to late 90's Mariano Rivera, you leave Quintana in there at least until one batter reaches.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 11:32 AM) That article was great. Oz is right. This is not the instructional league. I prefer a low key manager who lets the players play. I mean all managers will be second guessed. Look at Robin today. So he pulls the starter and the reliever blows his first save. This doesn't freak me out at all. s*** happens. Yes he should have left him in ... in hindsight. But Reed let the manager and the team down. It's not really Robin's fault; it could have gone either way. s***, the young lefty mighta got shelled in the ninth. We'll never know. Just like Ozzie. He makes decisions and most of them are the same as any other manager. Ozz is low key. Oz is the man. Great article. The problem is that he never applied his KNOWLEDGE of the fact that almost none of his players were fundamentally-inclined and changed his decision making process about bunting, for example. And it's not exactly accurate to say they never focused on fundamentals...they had their Camp Cora and every year there would be a procession of fundamental mistakes that would lead to the team having an offday dedicated to bunting or whatever the soup of the day problem was was and it would "take" for about a game or two and then everything would go back to crap and it would be totally forgotten. It's one thing to say the major league coaching staff isn't accountable or responsible for the lack of preparation or tools Sox players arrive at the big leagues with...it's quite another to run yourself into out after out after out and then blaming the players when blame really should have been directed at our minor league system for doing such a poor job of preparing players in terms of those "little things." I'd go as far as to say that all the better minor league prospects should have been flown over to Japan or South Korea in the offseason for a REAL fundamentals bootcamp, Asian-style.

QUOTE (onedude @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 09:34 AM) Q & Peavy with awesome games and nothing to show....Humber is the lone winner this series with a mediocre effort. And that's being VERY generous to the word mediocre. If a 7.2 ERA for a game isn't bad, then I guess one more run would have been, because we would have lost that game in extra innings, too.

Like Humber in 2011, it seems like we lucked out into another starter in Quintana. That said, we wouldn't have been any worse off this season with Thornton and Floyd both gone before a single pitch was thrown...and might have received some actual halfway useful pieces back, as well the payroll savings. So it is what it is. Beck from Georgia Southern might be our best starting prospect RIGHT now...if not, it's neck and neck with Castro and Axelrod. Note: Please keep Marco Paddy away from KW until someone we've acquired from the Blue Jays' system actually does something for us that's helpful at the big league level.

On the other hand, Quintana's looking like almost a carbon copy, but with even better stuff. Business-like, composed/poised, fearless, one of the rare Sox pitchers who likes to come inside and challenge hitters, lots of movement on his pitches, numerous swings and misses....

QUOTE (Carlo Paz @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 09:00 AM) When I buy the Sox, I'm going to show this game to all prospective employees...even hot dog vendors. I'm going to ask each and every one of them to defend Robin's decision to pull the starter in that situation. Anybody who answers anything but "it would be completely stupid to pull the starter there" will not be hired. If you liked the decision, well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you are not working for me. Ironic, but this was one of Ozzie's strengths, letting starters go as long as possible. Except when they weren't experienced or veteran pitchers. Of course, he never really had a rookie pitcher who did so well as Quintana is doing now...the ONLY exception is McCarthy down the stretch in 2005. Would have to look back at those boxes to see similar situations where Brandon was pulled for Jenks/Politte/Cotts down the stretch.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 08:52 AM) Come on, it's Scherzer, we have seen this before. His ERA in the 4 starts before this one was 5.82. He will have another stellar outing then get shelled a couple times. Still, if you had to choose between Scherzer/Porcello and Humber/Floyd, you'd never go with the latter pair.

QUOTE (OilCan @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 03:09 AM) Leesman has been really, really good the last few games. Makes me wonder if Thornton gets traded, if Leesman gets a crack at the bullpen for the Sox? Isn't Veal pitching pretty well too? You've also got Heath, and then Santos Rodriguez has been pitching much better for BIRM. Scouts have always loved Santos' potential/stuff/frame. Leesman doesn't seem like he stands much of a chance. Jared Mitchell is a couple more bad ballgames away from being a .250ish hitter in the Southern League All-Star game. Viciedo-like streaky this season.

QUOTE (Cali @ Jun 18, 2012 -> 07:50 AM) How many "this will be when the Tigers make their run" runs will they have to have before we realize they're just not that good of a team this season? No One. And I mean NO ONE. Is going on a run away in the Central in 2012. Not The Sox. Not The Tigers. Not the Indians (The Royals don't even merit discussion) This division will be won with 90 wins at most. And it's gonna be bitter all summer and into the fall. It'll be nailbiting heartbreak or victory (which will also make hearts malfunction) Welcome to 2012. Scherzer looks like he is turning things around, had the shutout today. Fister's tough and is back. If they also get back Smyly from blister problems, it's going to be very hard to stop them. Our roster, as currently comprised, isn't going to be enough to hold them off. Right now, the only thing keeping them from taking first place back is Valverde, their defense and injuries to Smyly and Avila.