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By Clark Spencer [email protected] Ozzie Guillen will be announced as the Marlins’ next manager at 1 p.m. Wednesday at Sun Life Stadium. Guillen is expected to receive either a three- or four-year deal, but for less than the $4 million annual figure that has been reported. Guillen, who has managed the Chicago White Sox since 2004 and won a World Series title with the team in 2005, was released from his contract on Monday. In compensation for Guillen, the Marlins will send a pair of minor leaguers, infielder Ozzie Martinez and right-handed pitcher Jhan Marinez, to the White Sox. Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2429...l#ixzz1ZFgYf7Zx A bit weird to see him in that 2002 bright teal Marlins jersey. Buster Olney The Marlins have wanted Ozzie Guillen as their manager for years, and now it's expected to happen, as Joe Cowley writes. There are rival baseball executives and scouts who have been rooting for this to happen, because everybody loves a good circus. The Marlins will now have baseball's most volatile and outspoken manager working for the most reactive owner, Jeffrey Loria. The whole world has heard the stories about how Joe Girardi yelled at Loria during a game and how Loria had to be talked out of firing Girardi that day, about how Fredi Gonzalez was nearly fired about 6,832 times. "There's no way those two guys can co-exist," said one GM. "I bet they don't make it out of spring training." Here's a foolhardy prediction: Guillen and Loria will get along fine. No other rumors, just the usual ones about Zambrano and Aramis Ramirez to Miami.

I think they must have been referencing the squabbles in South Florida over Hanley Ramirez, Josh Johnson and the workloads of the pitchers, about Girardi and management, Fredi Gonzalez getting canned, etc. It just looks really silly in comparison to what was going on with Guillen and his family and KW at the same time. They did fire two managers who were performing well above (Girardi) or at least "at" expectations (Gonzalez) in the span of just a couple of years. 3. You can’t tell it by the way his tenure with the White Sox ended, but Guillen is as close to being a genius as you can find in baseball. He has the ability to be in an animated conversation in one part of a stadium or clubhouse and know everything going on around him -- like the kid who never seems to be paying attention to the teacher but gets A's without studying. He’s that kid. That’s what I’ll miss the most -- how he catches everything. The man is pretty much a mind reader. His instincts are off the charts. He didn’t go onto the field in Houston to celebrate the White Sox clinching the 2005 World Series. He stayed in the dugout, with his coaches, leaving the moment to guys like Bobby Jenks, Juan Uribe, Paul Konerko and Buehrle. It was easy to love that guy. I hope he’s happy in Florida, and that he gets back to another World Series or two in the next decade, with a franchise that could become a destination for Latin American players. But Jeffrey Loria isn’t exactly Reinsdorf when it comes to being loyal to employees. He’s fired a Who’s Who of managers, getting Felipe Alou in Montreal and Jeff Torborg, Joe Girardi and Gonzalez in Florida, never leaving anyone in place for four years. Guillen might change that, but in baseball the only thing guaranteed is your contract, not your job. Phil Rogers is STILL speculating that it will be LaRussa, but that seems a bit far-fetched with what we know so far... http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,3270471.story

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/major...11/2612403.html When he's right, he sprays line drives from gap to gap with a level swing. He showed strong hands and excellent hand-eye coordination last year, when he looked like a potential No. 2 hitter with doubles power. Martinez's plate discipline took a hit this year and he never got going offensively and his confidence suffered. At times he fell into a pull mode, getting away from what made him successful earlier (but this flaw is expected to be fixed by Sox hitting coach Greg Walker, who's renowned for turning dead-pull hitters into spray hitters). Mentally he wasn't the same player, both at bat and in the field, where his play at short went from steady to erratic. He has the skills to play second and third and could fill a utility role. The strong arm is still there, as are the rest of his tools, but he showed only occasional glimpses of the all-around game that had Florida so excited a year ago. Puerto Rican, by the way. Maybe can guide Alex Rios...

http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/...ers/cards/87064 I'm guessing he's referring to this guy, who converted from a hitter to RHP (20 year old from VALENCIA, VNZ). Or it has to be Yolmer Carlos Sanchez, a 19 year-old SS from Maracay. Who's our LH Venezuelan stud in Instructional League? Anyone know?

Williams also stressed the good things that are going on in the Venezuela operations (except for you know, Guillen leaving) even if he doesn't name the two top prospects that he referred to as "The Franchise -- Sanchez -- and a left-handed pitcher in the Instructional League." He can't brag about the team's status in the talent-rich Dominican Republic. Williams seemed to suggest it's getting tougher to scout there, which is odd. "If you look at our reports, across the industry, there's not as many Type I, Type II Dominican players coming out," Williams said. "It's getting harder [and] harder, for whatever reason." The Rangers signed Dominican outfielder Nomar Mazara to a record $5 million deal this season. Bonuses are high across baseball for Dominican players. Under the Ricketts family, the Cubs are banking on upgrades to their Dominican operations, which has produced Carlos Marmol and Starlin Castro. No one really brings up the Sox's continued failures in the Dominican, but when the White Sox develop a homegrown Latin American star again, let me know.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 12:45 AM) I didn't think I was giving in. I would think most of my haters would think I haven't budged after presented their "facts, stats" thus their hatred of me grows. You must see me waffling somewhere. I'm really not crazy about Alomar being our new manager. Royals went with an inexperienced catcher once, during a rebuild in Pena, and he was a disaster. If the Red Sox blow it and their fans are imploding why can't we steal their manager just as the Marlins swooped in on Ozzie? If the Twins hate Gardy, why can't we steal him? He's experienced as well. People mock me like when I said if Guillen is so s*** why will Florida give him 4 years? Four years? I was mocked. And what is it ... four years and this disgrace of a manager is now also one of the highest paid in baseball by a cheap team. And the Sox let him go? Smart move. If you remember, you have to give credit to Tony Pena for the first four months of 2003. For nearly a decade, the Royals hadn't had a single winning season, after Brett retired. And from what he learned during that experience (which ended with him leaving in somewhat embarassing fashion), he's still been mentioned as a legit managerial candidate in the last 2-3 offseasons. It's the same thing you've mentioned about Ozzie...that he learned a lot/was trained during his time here, and can used that past EXPERIENCE to be an even better manager in the future. Right? That team was put together like a MacGuyver project....duct tape and baling wire. It was a miracle they stayed in contention so long with their "WE BELIEVE" catchphrase preceding Obama's "Yes, We Can" by 5 years. Florida is REPORTEDLY giving him 3 or 4 years to 1) sell tickets/help market/open up their new stadium, 2) build a bridge to the Hispanic fanbase in South Florida, 3) receive national media attention, 4) put them on the map as a potential destination for premier Free Agents (this didn't really happen in Chicago, only Freddy Garcia can be directly attributed to Ozzie) and 5) work with their young players. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean he was the best manager for the White Sox in 2012 or moving forward. And we're not going to swoop in and pay Francona $4-5 million per year because 1) JR has never done that before, 2) the team will more than likely be in a rebuilding phase and cutting payroll, so the job wouldn't be very attractive to a LaRussa or Francona type. Finally, he WANTED to leave. If you had an employee that was seeking to get out of his contract, once you cross that bridge, there's almost never a going back. The Sox were never going to be able to keep him pacified unless JR fired Williams and allowed him to keep his entire coaching staff intact, including Greg Walker.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp21111 At least this will make you laugh. Funniest thing I've seen tonight, especially since I've seen the same "death stare" in person many times now.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2428...e-move-for.html A much more objective Guillen piece than anything written by the Chicago media. It nicely summarizes the pros and cons of the decision. It would be really ironic if Ozzie had Pujols/Fielder or some of the biggest names in baseball that have never been possibilities on the SouthSide, at least not in the primes of their careers. However, with Loria's track record, you have to see it proven to actually believe in it happening. Part of another Miami Herald article....the whole firing of Cora by text message apparently is a horse that won't ever be put back in the barn thanks to Cowley Praise from Lowell “I told a bunch of people he’s one of the best coaches I’ve ever played for,” said former Marlins third baseman Mike Lowell, who attended a social event at Sun Life Stadium on the eve of the final game there. “I know everybody says Ozzie likes to talk and all that, but he knows a lot about baseball. He’s won a World Series. I’m curious to see how it plays out.” Said second baseman Omar Infante, who signed a two-year contract extension on Tuesday: “I think that’s what we need. I like him because he’s very aggressive. He talks a lot to the players. We’re a young team, and I think he’ll help us a lot.” Outfielder Logan Morrison said it will still come down to the players. “The players are the ones who win and lose games,” Morrison said. “He’s a name. I don’t think he’s going to be an end-all, save-all. But, then again, I don’t know.” Morrison said Guillen’s candor, though, could be good for the Marlins. Guillen is not shy about criticizing players who aren’t performing. “Some guys need that,” Morrison said. “I think you could see some areas [on the Marlins] where that’s needed.” Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2428...l#ixzz1ZDjABF96

Greg, From reading all the threads tonight, if I were you, you should stop trying to defend or justify yourself. Just make an effort to be consistent, don't back down...and don't talk out of both sides of your mouth, waffling back and forth. Notice that Victory, Marty34, Dick Allen (on the Greg Walker thing) never have ceded an inch. We might call the previous two trolls or Joe Cowley or instigators or thread hijackers, but it's apparent they are never going to give up, so you enjoy the intellectual exercise of dealing with them or you completely tune them out, one of the two. The main problem is that in the way you're defending Ozzie, it seems (or is perceived) to many here (my guess) that you're putting your affection/emotions/feelings for Ozzie ahead of the rest of the team or the organization. Think to yourself why you became a White Sox fan in the first place...or why the Royals aren't your favorite team, instead. At some point this offseason, Juan Pierre will no longer be a member of the White Sox. You already lost Bobby Jenks. Life goes on. We will all survive the eventual departures of Buehrle, Konerko and AJ as well. Part of being a fan. Imagine the Cardinals' fans and their reaction to possibly losing Pujols. Will they stop being Cardinals fans? I sincerely doubt it. No one player or manager is greater than the sum of all the individual parts that make up that team and its history. It's okay to be stubborn, obtuse or intransigent in your beliefs and defense of them. Just don't try to appease the people who are criticizing you by giving in and agreeing they might be right or that their opinions have merit (if you actually believe you're right and not just defending someone/something because 95% seem to be against it/you). And look at the situation from all angles. You know that citing Juan Pierre's relatively high batting average as a defense of him won't suffice when there's 10 things he's not doing well...not for $8.5 million.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp21070

What would KW get from J4L if Williams acquired AA to be his assistant/GM-in-waiting and simultaneously sold Hahn's contract to the Cubs?

QUOTE (MAX @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 10:17 PM) I don't think he would even take the cubs job. It would be a lateral move. The buzz around ricketts is that he wants a puppet GM. Hahn loves the Cubs, first of all. Second, being a puppet to Rickets but a major league GM is 100X being an assistant in limbo during a KW Puppet Regime with the manager (if it's Alomar) part of his "shadow team" of spies who are allegiant to Kenny. The ONLY reason for Hahn to stay is watching/observing JR and realizing the GM's job is his once KW finally it out of that chair.

I don't think I'd put Vandy quite on par with Stanford. But 4 year degree from Vandy >>> KW's and Tiger's time at Stanford Obviously Tiger Woods didn't soak up much from the Ethics/Values/Morals 101 class there.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 07:30 PM) This one is all about their defense. Since 2008 they've put together the most reliable defense in the league. And they got there by going off of the modern defense numbers. So what the Mariners with Jack Z. were also trying to do, but with much more potent offensive output? It's unfortunate that situations like that got the "movement" a bad name in some circles, because the ideas themselves (building around pitching/speed/defense at SAFECO) were sound....it was just the execution (or lack thereof) with putting the proper personnel in place to make it feasible. The A's approach worked while Giambi/Chavez/Tejada/Hudson/Mulder/Zito were relatively affordable. They held it together with a "band aid" closer from year to year, selling high and buying low (like they did with the Koch/Foulke flip).

Well, one thing's for sure, if I was Hahn...I'd probably have a very long conversation with Reinsdorf and ask if the job would essentially be his/when if KW is moved upstairs. If he's non-commital, I would probably go to the winter meetings with a plan to leave the White Sox, even if it's just a lateral move. No way he gets the Cubs' job.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 08:55 PM) CQ, I can see.. Pierre Agreed, AJ, who is going to take him? Also Agree on Danks and Floyd... Even still, I don't see them paying up... But, I was wrong last year, I thought Dunn was Paulie's replacement.. Why would Pierre be back? His contract is expiring. His time as an everyday leadoff hitter passed somewhere between 2010 and 2011.

Besides Beckham and Fields, which Sox prospect played at a high level right away? You have to go back to the time of Durham, Ordonez and Carlos Lee for rookies making an impact immediately on the Sox...and Viciedo to a lesser extent last season (not everyday play).

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) No him winning put them on the Map.. "HIM winning"....the manager doesn't win games, the players do. Good players=good manager Ozzie has said this himself 1,000 times. Jeff Torborg, Gene Lamont and Jerry Manuel all had good seasons managing the club in the last 20-30 years. Putting them on the map is such a subjective phrase. Paris Hilton could be named the manager of the White Sox, or Kim Kardashian, and that would get just as much, if not more attention, than Ozzie managing the Sox to the World Series title. Back then, it was all about the players, the team, and Ozzie stepping back and being on the outside looking in...now, things have reversed 180 degrees, the manager has become (in his own mind at least) more important than the team and organization.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) No him winning put them on the Map.. "HIM winning"....the manager doesn't win games, the players do. Good players=good manager Ozzie has said this himself 1,000 times. Jeff Torborg, Gene Lamont and Jerry Manuel all had good seasons managing the club in the last 20-30 years. Putting them on the map is such a subjective phrase. Paris Hilton could be named the manager of the White Sox, or Kim Kardashian, and that would get just as much, if not more attention, than Ozzie managing the Sox to the World Series title. Back then, it was all about the players, the team, and Ozzie stepping back and being on the outside looking in...now, things have reversed 180 degrees, the manager has become (in his own mind at least) more important than the team and organization.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) No him winning put them on the Map.. I think I'm going to have to side with the GM who put the roster together having more to do with 2005 than the manager. Just like 2009-2011 is more KW's doing than Ozzie's. When you bring in roughly 10 new players and manage to accomplish what they did with a $65 million dollar payroll, that in and of itself was more impressive than any leadership that Ozzie showed in holding the team together in the face of blowing a 15 game lead.

What will be more interesting would be if they ever did something, anything, to honor Williams. It would be pretty unprecedented. It's not like the guy is Branch Rickey or even Theo Epstein. Yet with how we erect statues and put pictures and names on the walls, anything is possible. As long as JR is the owner, it's 98% certain there will be some type of symbolic recognition for Ozzie unless he does something reprehensible while managing the morals...the managerial equivalent of Alomar spitting on Hirschbeck. (And yes, in the end, that didn't prevent him from making the HOF).

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:09 PM) What don't you get... Kenny was in from 01-03... Who knew the White Sox, what they do?????? 04-11, The White Sox were on the map.. His very presence put them on the map, lol? We'll test that theory soon enough when he has to compete in the NL East with another flawed roster. The main thing he has going for him is the excitement of a new beginning and a new stadium...but it only took a year for that effect to wear off in Minnesota or Washington (although the Twins' attendance is still excellent, the excitement is long gone). Another thing that happened is there was a vacuum that Ozzie stepped into with Ordonez, Lee and Valentin all leaving and Frank Thomas no longer the dominant force (due to injuries and time) that he once was...it was the right time and right place for Ozzie to become the manager, there's no doubt about that. But the last 3 years, the ONLY map we were on was the one of increasingly negative perception and publicity. KW has his share of the blame, but he hasn't intentionally created it to the extent Ozzie has...sure, we can talk forever about Dunn and Rios backfiring, and if the team doesn't pull out it during this next phase of Sox baseball, it won't be another manager, it will be KW leaving finally.

Okay...now it's starting to make sense, it's what happens when you're 12 hours or ahead (or behind) of a constantly shifting news story. The way it originally came off was that the organization named him interim then texted his firing (not a face-to-face meeting or over the phone). On the surface, it was made to seem very unprofessional and petty. So I guess Cowley really did get himself into the story, which is what he loves. Another thing that I found interesting....in some of the stories, it was noted how in recent years the SABR-oriented people (who that is in the front office beyond Hahn and maybe Gellinger I don't know) stopped hanging around on the field/dugout area during pre-game and batting practice. That there was pretty much a clear and complete rift between the KW/front office side and Ozzie's core group of Cora, Walker and Cox to a lesser extent.

What I'd like to see is some type of direct link or connection between SABR/statistical analysis and Martinez. There was the same debate in the past about Hahn.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp21070 Yet another reason this feud will never die. There's absolutely zero reason they ever should have named him the interim manager for two games in the first place. Embarassing.