caulfield12

Williams also stressed the good things that are going on in the Venezuela operations (except for you know, Guillen leaving) even if he doesn't name the two top prospects that he referred to as "The Franchise -- Sanchez -- and a left-handed pitcher in the Instructional League." He can't brag about the team's status in the talent-rich Dominican Republic. Williams seemed to suggest it's getting tougher to scout there, which is odd. "If you look at our reports, across the industry, there's not as many Type I, Type II Dominican players coming out," Williams said. "It's getting harder [and] harder, for whatever reason." The Rangers signed Dominican outfielder Nomar Mazara to a record $5 million deal this season. Bonuses are high across baseball for Dominican players. Under the Ricketts family, the Cubs are banking on upgrades to their Dominican operations, which has produced Carlos Marmol and Starlin Castro. No one really brings up the Sox's continued failures in the Dominican, but when the White Sox develop a homegrown Latin American star again, let me know.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 28, 2011 -> 12:45 AM) I didn't think I was giving in. I would think most of my haters would think I haven't budged after presented their "facts, stats" thus their hatred of me grows. You must see me waffling somewhere. I'm really not crazy about Alomar being our new manager. Royals went with an inexperienced catcher once, during a rebuild in Pena, and he was a disaster. If the Red Sox blow it and their fans are imploding why can't we steal their manager just as the Marlins swooped in on Ozzie? If the Twins hate Gardy, why can't we steal him? He's experienced as well. People mock me like when I said if Guillen is so s*** why will Florida give him 4 years? Four years? I was mocked. And what is it ... four years and this disgrace of a manager is now also one of the highest paid in baseball by a cheap team. And the Sox let him go? Smart move. If you remember, you have to give credit to Tony Pena for the first four months of 2003. For nearly a decade, the Royals hadn't had a single winning season, after Brett retired. And from what he learned during that experience (which ended with him leaving in somewhat embarassing fashion), he's still been mentioned as a legit managerial candidate in the last 2-3 offseasons. It's the same thing you've mentioned about Ozzie...that he learned a lot/was trained during his time here, and can used that past EXPERIENCE to be an even better manager in the future. Right? That team was put together like a MacGuyver project....duct tape and baling wire. It was a miracle they stayed in contention so long with their "WE BELIEVE" catchphrase preceding Obama's "Yes, We Can" by 5 years. Florida is REPORTEDLY giving him 3 or 4 years to 1) sell tickets/help market/open up their new stadium, 2) build a bridge to the Hispanic fanbase in South Florida, 3) receive national media attention, 4) put them on the map as a potential destination for premier Free Agents (this didn't really happen in Chicago, only Freddy Garcia can be directly attributed to Ozzie) and 5) work with their young players. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean he was the best manager for the White Sox in 2012 or moving forward. And we're not going to swoop in and pay Francona $4-5 million per year because 1) JR has never done that before, 2) the team will more than likely be in a rebuilding phase and cutting payroll, so the job wouldn't be very attractive to a LaRussa or Francona type. Finally, he WANTED to leave. If you had an employee that was seeking to get out of his contract, once you cross that bridge, there's almost never a going back. The Sox were never going to be able to keep him pacified unless JR fired Williams and allowed him to keep his entire coaching staff intact, including Greg Walker.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp21111 At least this will make you laugh. Funniest thing I've seen tonight, especially since I've seen the same "death stare" in person many times now.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2428...e-move-for.html A much more objective Guillen piece than anything written by the Chicago media. It nicely summarizes the pros and cons of the decision. It would be really ironic if Ozzie had Pujols/Fielder or some of the biggest names in baseball that have never been possibilities on the SouthSide, at least not in the primes of their careers. However, with Loria's track record, you have to see it proven to actually believe in it happening. Part of another Miami Herald article....the whole firing of Cora by text message apparently is a horse that won't ever be put back in the barn thanks to Cowley Praise from Lowell “I told a bunch of people he’s one of the best coaches I’ve ever played for,” said former Marlins third baseman Mike Lowell, who attended a social event at Sun Life Stadium on the eve of the final game there. “I know everybody says Ozzie likes to talk and all that, but he knows a lot about baseball. He’s won a World Series. I’m curious to see how it plays out.” Said second baseman Omar Infante, who signed a two-year contract extension on Tuesday: “I think that’s what we need. I like him because he’s very aggressive. He talks a lot to the players. We’re a young team, and I think he’ll help us a lot.” Outfielder Logan Morrison said it will still come down to the players. “The players are the ones who win and lose games,” Morrison said. “He’s a name. I don’t think he’s going to be an end-all, save-all. But, then again, I don’t know.” Morrison said Guillen’s candor, though, could be good for the Marlins. Guillen is not shy about criticizing players who aren’t performing. “Some guys need that,” Morrison said. “I think you could see some areas [on the Marlins] where that’s needed.” Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/28/2428...l#ixzz1ZDjABF96

Greg, From reading all the threads tonight, if I were you, you should stop trying to defend or justify yourself. Just make an effort to be consistent, don't back down...and don't talk out of both sides of your mouth, waffling back and forth. Notice that Victory, Marty34, Dick Allen (on the Greg Walker thing) never have ceded an inch. We might call the previous two trolls or Joe Cowley or instigators or thread hijackers, but it's apparent they are never going to give up, so you enjoy the intellectual exercise of dealing with them or you completely tune them out, one of the two. The main problem is that in the way you're defending Ozzie, it seems (or is perceived) to many here (my guess) that you're putting your affection/emotions/feelings for Ozzie ahead of the rest of the team or the organization. Think to yourself why you became a White Sox fan in the first place...or why the Royals aren't your favorite team, instead. At some point this offseason, Juan Pierre will no longer be a member of the White Sox. You already lost Bobby Jenks. Life goes on. We will all survive the eventual departures of Buehrle, Konerko and AJ as well. Part of being a fan. Imagine the Cardinals' fans and their reaction to possibly losing Pujols. Will they stop being Cardinals fans? I sincerely doubt it. No one player or manager is greater than the sum of all the individual parts that make up that team and its history. It's okay to be stubborn, obtuse or intransigent in your beliefs and defense of them. Just don't try to appease the people who are criticizing you by giving in and agreeing they might be right or that their opinions have merit (if you actually believe you're right and not just defending someone/something because 95% seem to be against it/you). And look at the situation from all angles. You know that citing Juan Pierre's relatively high batting average as a defense of him won't suffice when there's 10 things he's not doing well...not for $8.5 million.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp21070

What would KW get from J4L if Williams acquired AA to be his assistant/GM-in-waiting and simultaneously sold Hahn's contract to the Cubs?

QUOTE (MAX @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 10:17 PM) I don't think he would even take the cubs job. It would be a lateral move. The buzz around ricketts is that he wants a puppet GM. Hahn loves the Cubs, first of all. Second, being a puppet to Rickets but a major league GM is 100X being an assistant in limbo during a KW Puppet Regime with the manager (if it's Alomar) part of his "shadow team" of spies who are allegiant to Kenny. The ONLY reason for Hahn to stay is watching/observing JR and realizing the GM's job is his once KW finally it out of that chair.

I don't think I'd put Vandy quite on par with Stanford. But 4 year degree from Vandy >>> KW's and Tiger's time at Stanford Obviously Tiger Woods didn't soak up much from the Ethics/Values/Morals 101 class there.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 07:30 PM) This one is all about their defense. Since 2008 they've put together the most reliable defense in the league. And they got there by going off of the modern defense numbers. So what the Mariners with Jack Z. were also trying to do, but with much more potent offensive output? It's unfortunate that situations like that got the "movement" a bad name in some circles, because the ideas themselves (building around pitching/speed/defense at SAFECO) were sound....it was just the execution (or lack thereof) with putting the proper personnel in place to make it feasible. The A's approach worked while Giambi/Chavez/Tejada/Hudson/Mulder/Zito were relatively affordable. They held it together with a "band aid" closer from year to year, selling high and buying low (like they did with the Koch/Foulke flip).

Well, one thing's for sure, if I was Hahn...I'd probably have a very long conversation with Reinsdorf and ask if the job would essentially be his/when if KW is moved upstairs. If he's non-commital, I would probably go to the winter meetings with a plan to leave the White Sox, even if it's just a lateral move. No way he gets the Cubs' job.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 08:55 PM) CQ, I can see.. Pierre Agreed, AJ, who is going to take him? Also Agree on Danks and Floyd... Even still, I don't see them paying up... But, I was wrong last year, I thought Dunn was Paulie's replacement.. Why would Pierre be back? His contract is expiring. His time as an everyday leadoff hitter passed somewhere between 2010 and 2011.

Besides Beckham and Fields, which Sox prospect played at a high level right away? You have to go back to the time of Durham, Ordonez and Carlos Lee for rookies making an impact immediately on the Sox...and Viciedo to a lesser extent last season (not everyday play).

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) No him winning put them on the Map.. "HIM winning"....the manager doesn't win games, the players do. Good players=good manager Ozzie has said this himself 1,000 times. Jeff Torborg, Gene Lamont and Jerry Manuel all had good seasons managing the club in the last 20-30 years. Putting them on the map is such a subjective phrase. Paris Hilton could be named the manager of the White Sox, or Kim Kardashian, and that would get just as much, if not more attention, than Ozzie managing the Sox to the World Series title. Back then, it was all about the players, the team, and Ozzie stepping back and being on the outside looking in...now, things have reversed 180 degrees, the manager has become (in his own mind at least) more important than the team and organization.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) No him winning put them on the Map.. "HIM winning"....the manager doesn't win games, the players do. Good players=good manager Ozzie has said this himself 1,000 times. Jeff Torborg, Gene Lamont and Jerry Manuel all had good seasons managing the club in the last 20-30 years. Putting them on the map is such a subjective phrase. Paris Hilton could be named the manager of the White Sox, or Kim Kardashian, and that would get just as much, if not more attention, than Ozzie managing the Sox to the World Series title. Back then, it was all about the players, the team, and Ozzie stepping back and being on the outside looking in...now, things have reversed 180 degrees, the manager has become (in his own mind at least) more important than the team and organization.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:24 PM) No him winning put them on the Map.. I think I'm going to have to side with the GM who put the roster together having more to do with 2005 than the manager. Just like 2009-2011 is more KW's doing than Ozzie's. When you bring in roughly 10 new players and manage to accomplish what they did with a $65 million dollar payroll, that in and of itself was more impressive than any leadership that Ozzie showed in holding the team together in the face of blowing a 15 game lead.

What will be more interesting would be if they ever did something, anything, to honor Williams. It would be pretty unprecedented. It's not like the guy is Branch Rickey or even Theo Epstein. Yet with how we erect statues and put pictures and names on the walls, anything is possible. As long as JR is the owner, it's 98% certain there will be some type of symbolic recognition for Ozzie unless he does something reprehensible while managing the morals...the managerial equivalent of Alomar spitting on Hirschbeck. (And yes, in the end, that didn't prevent him from making the HOF).

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 09:09 PM) What don't you get... Kenny was in from 01-03... Who knew the White Sox, what they do?????? 04-11, The White Sox were on the map.. His very presence put them on the map, lol? We'll test that theory soon enough when he has to compete in the NL East with another flawed roster. The main thing he has going for him is the excitement of a new beginning and a new stadium...but it only took a year for that effect to wear off in Minnesota or Washington (although the Twins' attendance is still excellent, the excitement is long gone). Another thing that happened is there was a vacuum that Ozzie stepped into with Ordonez, Lee and Valentin all leaving and Frank Thomas no longer the dominant force (due to injuries and time) that he once was...it was the right time and right place for Ozzie to become the manager, there's no doubt about that. But the last 3 years, the ONLY map we were on was the one of increasingly negative perception and publicity. KW has his share of the blame, but he hasn't intentionally created it to the extent Ozzie has...sure, we can talk forever about Dunn and Rios backfiring, and if the team doesn't pull out it during this next phase of Sox baseball, it won't be another manager, it will be KW leaving finally.

Okay...now it's starting to make sense, it's what happens when you're 12 hours or ahead (or behind) of a constantly shifting news story. The way it originally came off was that the organization named him interim then texted his firing (not a face-to-face meeting or over the phone). On the surface, it was made to seem very unprofessional and petty. So I guess Cowley really did get himself into the story, which is what he loves. Another thing that I found interesting....in some of the stories, it was noted how in recent years the SABR-oriented people (who that is in the front office beyond Hahn and maybe Gellinger I don't know) stopped hanging around on the field/dugout area during pre-game and batting practice. That there was pretty much a clear and complete rift between the KW/front office side and Ozzie's core group of Cora, Walker and Cox to a lesser extent.

What I'd like to see is some type of direct link or connection between SABR/statistical analysis and Martinez. There was the same debate in the past about Hahn.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_leagu...urn=mlb-wp21070 Yet another reason this feud will never die. There's absolutely zero reason they ever should have named him the interim manager for two games in the first place. Embarassing.

QUOTE (Real @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 11:00 AM) Cora and Walker and Baines and probably Cox are all going with Ozzie to FLA, rumor is Cooper stays The rumor is just Cora and possibly Vizquel.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 04:56 AM) I'd say it's something like this: 75% - Alomar 20% - Bell 4% - Martinez 1% - Other I'm rooting for Martinez. You'd have to think McEwing will at least get an interview shot because he's a big-time disciple of LaRussa.

I'm just glad we don't know when he bought those plane tickets to Spain. If it was when we were still legimately in the race, it would be even more evidence to support those who assert his heart hasn't been in it this year...or that he actually was managing to spite KW. “Obviously, I appreciate that he respected my decision,” Guillen said. “And anybody in Chicago or anyone in baseball that blames Kenny or Jerry or front-office people, they're wrong. “That's the decision I made, obviously for a lot of reasons. I will still live in Chicago. My home is in Chicago. The best thing about it, I leave here with my head up. “Jerry gave me an opportunity to play in the big leagues and gave me an opportunity to manage in the big leagues. What else can I ask the guy? Give me the opportunity to be free when he didn't have to? I respect that. To me, Jerry means more to me and my family now than he did in the past.” http://www.suntimes.com/sports Read more: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2011092.../#ixzz1Z96iYQVE Barry Rozner of the Arlington Herald rips Guillen to shreds more than Rosenbloom Remembering Ozzie Posted by scotgreg on Tue, 09/27/2011 - 02:39 On the drive back home after a long, stunning day at U.S. Cellular Field, I had a chance to really think about what transpired. -Ozzie is gone, and I’m going to miss him. -Ozzie is going to be in a better place with the Marlins. -Eight years in the dugout, especially the White Sox’ dugout, is a long, long run. -As a working reporter, I’m going to miss Ozzie’s humor, brutal honesty and constant access. -As a working reporter, I was stunned by Ozzie's unedited ramblings about once a day. -As a friend for nearly two decades, I’m going to remember some really good times. When I was newly married and thinking about a vacation in Aruba, Ozzie told me to give him a head’s up because that’s where his boat was docked and I was free to use it. -When I was still new on the Sox beat, in 1995, I wrote a scathing column about the White Sox out in Anaheim, Calif. It was right after the strike and shortly before Gene Lamont was fired as manager. Looking back, I was pretty harsh and I took quite a few individual shots. When we got back home and I went to Comiskey Park for the opening game of the homestand, the column was posted in the clubhouse and most of the players were not happy to see me. One player pulled me aside and said: “Bleep them. Everything you wrote was true.” Thanks, Ozzie. -On a family vacation in Florida a few years ago, we caught some bad weather in St. Pete so I called Ozzie in Miami and asked him what the deal was in the Sunshine State. “It’s beautiful here,” he said. “Come on down. I was at the beach and everybody was dancing around naked.” How do you feel sorry for a guy like that? I actually feel happy for No. 13. These past two seasons were brutal, and you could see the end coming as soon as last spring. It’s over now, and I think it’s going to be a good change. I also think the heat is now squarely on GM Kenny Williams, without a doubt. The manager is always the first to go, but the GM puts the roster together and Kenny has made some major gaffes in recent seasons. There were obvious problems between Ozzie and KW, and I’m not going to rehash them all again. I’ll just wish Ozzie luck down in Miami and never forget the good times.

"Ozzie’s a colorful guy. You guys will love him. You’ll have a lot to write about. He’s a colorful guy. He knows this game," McKeon told reporters after Monday's game, according to The Miami Herald. (Manager Jack) McKeon also added this insight into Guillen's approach: “I liked the way he was able to control the players, especially the Latin players,” McKeon said. “He wasn’t afraid to jump on them and encourage them but also try to help them. He wasn’t worried about being their friend. He was going to tell it like it is. And that’s Ozzie–he tells it like it is.” Guillen has long been a candidate to be the Marlins' skipper. His relationship with the White Sox front office, in particular general manager Ken Williams, was often contentious, and a breakup seemed likely on many occasions. "Was it time for a change? I don't think so," Williams told reporters Monday night. "I guess things were accelerated. We had no intention of firing him. This was kind of acquiescing to some of his desires more than anything. It is what it is. I don't wish to expound on any of the peripherals to the degree that they become more of a story than they really are." FOXSports.com reported that at least one player would go to the White Sox as compensation for Guillen. ESPN Chicago reported that the Sox would acquire two minor leaguers. USA Today reported that the Sox are hopeful of receiving a "decent prospect" but won't get anyone on the Marlins' 40-man roster. Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011...s#ixzz1Z8ktbWzV Have seen conflicting reports about it being a 3 or 4 year deal. The only number I've seen so far is $16 million for 4 years...just think, a $40 million savings compared to our bargain deal with Adam Dunn, haha.