caulfield12

It's not the move itself. The hilariousness of "All In" just got more pronounced. If you want to look at an organization that's truly "All In," it's the Royals, who are taking a shot this year even though it might end up costing them ten of millions with Hosmer. Viciedo is a sunk cost. We're already committed to paying him $10 million plus. And it's not like we didn't see him have the ability to hit last year. He was pretty much signed TO HIT, with that as his #1 skill. Yet somehow, when we're going up against teams like TEX, CLE, the Dodgers, then hit the road against Texas, Toronto and Boston, we're supposed to be inspired that Dallas McPherson will actually contribute something positive??? It's predictable, but it sucks and I have a feeling we'll be wondering months or years from now if bringing up Viciedo earlier could have sparked the White Sox offense instead of going down in flames with the veteran Pierre.

And if they don't got 9-7 in these next 16 games and beat Detroit 2/3 in Chicago, the rest of the season is almost to the point of being irrelevant, except for jockeying for draft pick position. It has already reached that status in Minnesota.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 17, 2011 -> 09:29 AM) Dude there would be more astericks in this than a George Carlin concert transcript. Fine, name me any player (pitcher or hitter) in MLB history who was signed for $10+ million (at the age of 19 or above) who wasn't a major league regular by his 3rd full season? I'll just say that when you gamble that much money on a non-collegiate player, it's almost unheard of. Beckett and Porcello are the only similar situations in terms of being Dayan's age at the time of the bonus. And A-Rod. 1.Stephen Strasburg, Nationals (2009, 1st round, 1st pick): Four years, $15.1MM. $7.5MM of that makes up the largest signing bonus in draft history, and his salary is set through the 2012 season. 2.Mark Prior, Cubs (2001, 1/2): Five years, $10.5MM. Prior's contract allowed him to void the final two years of the deal and instead file for salary arbitration, which he did in 2006. Instead being paid the $2MM his contract called for that season, Prior earned $3.575MM when the two sides settled before a hearing. 3.Mark Teixeira, Rangers (2001, 1/5): Four years, $9.5MM. Teixeira's $4.5MM signing bonus was the largest ever given to a player as part of a big league deal at the time, and it stood as the record until the next player on our list was drafted. 4.David Price, Rays (2007, 1/1): Six years, $8.5MM. Price has a clause similar to Prior in his deal, allowing him to void the $1.5MM he's scheduled to make in 2012 and instead file for arbitration. The early guess is that he will indeed go that route. 5.Pat Burrell, Phillies (1998, 1/1): Five years, $8MM. Pat the Bat's deal marked the beginning of the big money era for draft picks. 6.Dustin Ackley, Mariners (2009, 1/2): Five years, $7.5MM. Ackley can also earn another $2.5MM in salary based on how quickly he reaches the big leagues. 7.Rick Porcello, Tigers (2007, 1/27): Four years, $7.285MM. Club options for the 2012 and 2013 seasons could put another $2.88MM in his pocket. 8.J.D. Drew, Cardinals (1998, 1/5): Four years, $7MM. Drew famously refused to sign with the Phillies as the second overall pick in the 1997 draft, as he and Boras stuck to their guarantee that he would not sign for less than $10MM. 9.Josh Beckett, Marlins (1999, 1/2): Four years, $7MM. Beckett was the first high school player to receive a Major League deal since Alex Rodriguez in 1993, and the first high school pitcher to get one since Van Poppel. 10.Eric Munson, Tigers (1999, 1/3): Four years, $6.75MM. The $3.5MM signing bonus was a club record until Porcello showed up. source: MLBtraderumors.com

They simply have to find out what Viciedo can do for at least 3 months this season. If Morel can put together a solid rest of the season, they theoretically won't be entirely out of it for 2012 no matter what happens the rest of this year (see 2007/2008, or 2004/2005 offseasons). Of course, that's ASSUMING that Peavy, Humber and Sale are all solid contributors to the rotation next year (along with Gavin) and that we can get decent returns for Buehrle/Jackson. Then, they'll have to decide what to do about Quentin and Danks. If they decide to trade both of them, then they might as well go ahead and try to get the best possible return on Matt Thornton, although is new contract won't make that a slam dunk unless he picks it up in terms of velocity and his offspeed stuff shows some semblance of being respected by hitters. It's pretty obvious that they can't go through yet another year with AJ as their #1 catcher if he continues to be this punchless offensively. They have the option of finding another Olivo/Molina type who's "defense first" or rolling the dice with Tyler Flowers and calling all the pitches from the dugout.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 17, 2011 -> 07:52 AM) I've had really bad luck googling stuff like this today. Anyway, Jose Contreras and Aroldis Chapman blew past Viciedo's contract. I'll just put it this way, there's never been a contract of $10 million plus for an unproven 19 year old where there was considerable doubt about what impact he'd have in the majors...Contreras was expected to be a star right away, and Chapman was considered "major league ready" in the minds of many scouts after seeing him in the World Baseball Classic. It was largely based on "projectability," but the raw talent was there. Considering the amount of money given to him is like 3-4 entire June FA drafts for the organization, it's an interesting risk considering we almost never go over slot in the draft itself, yet we "went over slot" in the millions of dollars in an open bidding process with every team in the majors involved.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ May 17, 2011 -> 07:33 AM) Well that's just not true. How many players in Latin America have been signed to a guaranteed MLB contract (I won't even add "signed at age 19 or higher to their first contract"), received $10+ million dollars, and didn't (or hadn't yet) achieved a starting role in the 3rd year of their playing career? In this situation, it's basically like we "drafted" something between an advanced high school player and a seasoned SEC collegiate player and gave him one of the biggest signing bonuses in the history of the draft. It's an unusual contract and certainly "big" by most definitions.

QUOTE (Lillian @ May 17, 2011 -> 08:31 AM) We all have to remember that Ozzie can't speak as candidly about players as we can, here in a forum. He has to be supportive of his players, as long as they remain on the team. What would it accomplish to talk about J. P. the way we do? I'm confident that Ozzie and K. W. are contemplating the kind of move that we'd all like to see, but we aren't going to hear anything about it until it happens. I think when the time comes, Ozzie will spin it something like this: "We have to give this kid a chance. He's playing really well at Charlotte, and we have to find a place for him. Juan is struggling right now, so we're going to give the Tank some playing time." If Viciedo can establish himself, they probably don't care any more than we do what they do with Pierre. But in the meantime, they have to do whatever they can to try to instill confidence in Juan's psyche. I think that if we were in Ozzie's shoes, we'd do the same thing. I hope that Juan doesn't read our comments about him. That could negate anything Ozzie might say to try to bolster his confidence. You have to feel a little bad for the guy. I'm one of his biggest detractors, but you have to give him credit for being a hard working, dedicated athlete. If he fails, it sure isn't for the lack of effort. It's a shame that he just doesn't have many tools beyond his diminishing speed. If Joe Mauer read everything that was being said and whispered about him in Minnesota and let it get to him, he might never get another hit in the majors. These guys are used to dealing with criticism. They're professionals. It goes with the multi-million dollar guaranteed contracts. It's when it extends to 12-18 year olds, the recruiting and "shady agents" and criticism of basketball and football players, that's when I think it can have more of an effect by far than ANYTHING said at soxtalk or wsi or The Score or WBBM or written in the newpapers.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 17, 2011 -> 08:23 AM) Or without throwing out "big" contracts. Then we have to take Viciedo off the list because that was the biggest contract ever given to a non-major league ready player in MLB history. Ramirez...nobody can take that away from KW, same with Jenks and Santos.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 17, 2011 -> 07:46 AM) This is how it always goes with Ozzie and a kid. The kid gets 60 at bats. 75 if we're lucky. If he hasn't started hitting by then, he enters the doghouse and whatever guy Ozzie likes more starts getting all the at bats, while the young guy lingers. Which still leaves Ryan Sweeney (sort of) as the only Sox position player who's received the "Ozzie Treatment" and gone on to have success with another organization. If we can rescue failing players from other organizations, why haven't all the teams in MLB been able to fix the likes of Borchard, Fields, Anderson, Michael Morse, Jeremy Reed, Getz, etc.? It's hard not to arrive at the conclusion that they weren't that good in the first place...although some will argue we somehow messed them all up beyond repair. Doesn't their later failures with multiple organizations support Ozzie's position that they weren't good enough to play? When we brought in Alexei (and this was when he was still being compared to Ramon Santiago), Iguchi and Beckham, they played almost everyday from the beginning. Same with Quentin (albeit not quite a rookie in 2008) after Owens went down in ST. Is it not possible that Morel's just not meant to be a regular at 3B because of his lack of sufficient power (same argument as was applied to Sweeney) and that he would never would have come close to being ranked #3 in another team's sytem? We can argue Ozzie will stick with "bad" veteran players but not "bad" and unproven youngsters...?

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ May 17, 2011 -> 03:35 AM) From what I recall from last year, it took about 3-4 weeks for him to finally start clicking, and then he would tear it up until he peaked around .320 average or so. This is why I gaurenteed that Morel would have a much better May than April, but then of course he got benched about a week into May, even though he is hitting .292 in May. You don't think the shaky D has played an equal part in that? Along with the fact that Omar's been contributing something almost every game he's been in (I know, the Sunday game he made a couple of mistakes, but that happens and we still won, and Ozzie is usually pretty superstitious about breaking up a "winning/streaking" line-up).

And Dunn/Konerko were already onboard, thus no PT at DH/1B. Along with the acquisition and extension of Teahen, although it was pretty clear by mid 2010 that Teahen wasn't the long-term solution at 3B, either. But he always had the most value (by far) to the franchise if he could play an adequate 3B. I guess RF would be the next most logical, because of his arm.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 17, 2011 -> 01:06 AM) It's going to be great when Tank finally replaces Juan, but we're still going nowhere because our outfield defense is going to be gawdawful. Unless Tank hits .375 with 40 homers. Quentin's actually "adequate" in RF, at least better than last year. Having Rios in CF covers up for a lot of issues as well. Viciedo at least has the type of arm strength to keep other teams from running on him at well. Having watched Josh Fields and Mark Teahen in the OF, or Brian Daubach, I can't imagine it could get any worse and the offensive jolt he'll provide should make it worthwhile, if he's allowed to play at least 5 games per week.

6. Juan Pierre(notes) or anything. Exactly what Pierre brings to the Chicago White Sox anymore remains unclear. His offense is Tejadan and his defense Ibanezish. The one attribute Pierre retained until this year, his basestealing ability, joined his bat and glove in heaven. Even as Pierre's five-year, $44 million contract finally runs out, it's not a flop like Vernon Wells,(notes) or even a payroll squeeze, a la Chone Figgins.(notes) Pierre is just a guy whose career could well be over at 33, whether it's the White Sox ending it or other teams’ lack of interest going forward doing the same. The slow attrition that plagues all athletes may be... … Jeff Passan (Yahoo Sports)

QUOTE (Cali @ May 17, 2011 -> 01:20 AM) Man, the Twins being THIS bad is almost a crazier story than the Indians in first. They always have that team on paper that isn't very impressive and they would always find ways to get the best out of guys, play smart baseball under Gardy and beat up the Central division, but they are just AWFUL. They've lost 9 in a row, 15 games under .500 Just WOW... Of course they way they churn out minor leaguers I really don't want them to get a high draft pick haha http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/121966474.html The irony of all ironies is that they traded Wilson Ramos and they still might need to draft ANOTHER catcher #1 because it's looking more and more unlikely that Mauer will ever be able to stay healthy playing there 140-150 games per season.Vin Mazzaro(notes) made major league history. Royals reliever Vin Mazzaro gave up 14 runs and got just seven outs against the Cleveland Indians, who beat Kansas city 19-1 Monday night. He was sent down to the minors after the game. No pitcher has allowed 14 runs in fewer innings than Mazzaro, according to STATS LLC, whose database goes back to 1919. “It’s tough. It was a tough game,” said Mazzaro, whose ERA is now 22.74. “Some of the plays didn’t go my way. It’s a funny game.”

I think that makes 5-12 at home. For some mystifying reason, we were horrible in 2009 at home and now the same trend's continuing this year again.

QUOTE (JohnCangelosi @ May 16, 2011 -> 03:49 PM) A LF version of Andy Gonzalez, zero tool player Gonzalez's tool was the versatility of sucking at 5-6 different positions. If Joe McEwing's the new manager, we'll have Jose Oquendo as our 3B coach and a team of Flying Gonzalezes and/or Molinas who have changed their names from Angel to Andy.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 16, 2011 -> 05:09 PM) Again, comparison needed. How many teams have gotten 2 starting position players, a 1 year wonder closer, and a top prospect OF/DH bat internationally over the last 8 years, and done so without a Kaz Matsui contract level bust? If I go to the roster of some of the top teams right now, do they have more or less than that? Same question, back at you. Can you think of any team that's been to the playoffs in the last decade that have done so without producing any homegrown players from Latin America over a 10 year time period? Either pitchers or hitters. I was thinking the last Dominican we produced...Jesus Pena? Ozuna doesn't exactly count. Clevelan Santeliz to represent Ozzieland? But I'm talking about a kid signed at 16-18 years old.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 16, 2011 -> 12:00 PM) Which of course, is our standard method of prospect development. 75 at bats or so is all the chance to adapt to the league that you get. Other than Beckham, how many rookies have just come in and been given at least 3/4th's of a season to prove themselves? It took Crede and Rowand 2-3 years to break the starting line-up. Borchard, Sweeney and Brian Anderson are examples that come to mind right away. Josh Fields, in 2007, I guess. Of course, we all know how that ended up. Ironic that the ONE year we actually had to let the youth play extensively and without any pressure that Fields/Owens/Gonzalez/Wasserman are all out of the game or in career purgatory no less than 4 years later.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 16, 2011 -> 12:54 PM) Except it means nothing out of context. I'd like to see a list of failed pitching draftees from other teams to compare it to. You'd have to index it to draft position/signing bonus, etc. Overall, our draft positions have been lousy because usually we're a .500 or better team. But the Broadway, Honel and Stumm picks (because of his bonus) were disasters. Of course, you could look at the Royals' first round draft picks for a 15 year stretch and find all misses. That said, they've (the Royals, not us) done a much better job the last five years. Yes, understatement of the year, there. Of course, the most grating failure is Borchard, but this whole situation has been covered exhaustively. When you're NOT drafting well out of the US, and NOT getting ANYTHING out of the DR, Venezuela, Mexico and Central America for a ten + year timeframe, then you're severely handicapping yourself. Basically, we have cut ourselves off from 35% of the talent load in the world. Really, it's a miracle we've been competitive at all. That's a testament to KW and some of the brighter moves he's made, which, along with the high payroll, have covered up largely for the mistakes but always put us on the precipice of disaster (because of contracts like Rios and Peavy). Internationally, it's basically Tadahito, Takatsu, Alexei and Viciedo. That's it. For 10+ years.

Imagine you're a Twins' fan. They want Gardenhire and Smith fired, two weeks ago. The guy's won 6/9 AL Central Division championships...almost 7/9. And yet the fanbase believes he's incapable of taking his team "to the next level," etc. The entire next 5-10 years of their franchise has been put in the hands of Mauer's health. Yet, had he left as a FA for the Yankees, the fans might never have forgiven ownership. Impossible situation for both sides to walk away from, as a hometown product. Not unlike LeBron departing for South Beach. I wonder if the situations were reversed, and we hadn't won the World Series but had all those division championships, if the patience would be less, more or the same? As bad as some of our contract situations look, the ones with Mauer/Morneau/Nathan/Cuddyer/Pavano/Liriano are arguably more vexing. The only Twins' player that a team would consider trading for is probably Kubel, and he's a FA after this year, so his value is limited. And Delmon Young pulled a play that would have made Milton Bradley proud yesterday....not hustling after a ball, then pointing for Span to get it when he had to run halfway across the outfield and Young was barely making an effort at all.

QUOTE (gatnom @ May 16, 2011 -> 08:34 AM) So, because the Sox are merely mediocre instead of horrible like they had been in the past, the entire organization should just get a lifetime pass? 2005 excuses a lot for the "old timers" crowd. For those fans in their 20's, it's more "what have you done for me lately?" and that's not looking so good for KW and Ozzie.

QUOTE (Paint it Black @ May 15, 2011 -> 02:39 PM) They raped us so bad that the following off-season they tried to trade him and couldn't find a taker. But you clearly admit Swisher had a bad year with us, and yet you expect KW to get something of value in return? Swisher is a pain in the ass to have as a teammate. The dude never shuts up. I also find it funny that the "proven player" only seems ok when it's used against KW or Ozzie. It wasn't acceptable when I argued this team would hit when they were slumping because practically the whole team is a group of proven players, but it works for Swisher? Who really hasn't been much better since leaving here. I'm not saying that was a good trade overall, but the only player who I really miss in that deal will end up being Carter. I could make half my starts in Oakland and put up the numbers Gio is. You can have that Ryan Sweeney garbage too. Two 850+ OPS years say otherwise about Swisher. He's a solid player. Not an All-Star or superstar, clearly, but he's never going to hurt the Yankees.

The only way it's going to happen is if Pierre pulls himself out of the line-up (like Posada) or gets injured. How many times has Ozzie benched a veteran position player in the middle of the season? He stuck with Erstad, Mackowiak and Kotsay. Nick Swisher is about the only name that comes to mind. I just don't see any way they trade Pierre out for De Aza. As Ozzie himself said, he still firmly believes Pierre will turn it around.

QUOTE (JohnCangelosi @ May 16, 2011 -> 07:22 AM) I liked the other previously proposed option on another thread where we put Lillibridge at 3B and lead him off and bring in Dayan. This makes our offense so much better it's ridiculous. We have two easy outs batting 9 and 1 (Morel/Pierre) and that eliminates them both and still gives Ozzie a "speed guy" at the top as we all know he is so hell bent on having one. This is such a simple and obvious solution it is ridiculous to think that our management is unwilling to make this change. Except Lillibridge has never played 3B in his entire life.

I would give Williams a B/B-. What he's good at: Finding "undervalued" position players 23-32 that are hidden gems or have flaws and either providing them an opportunity to play or fixing them. This list includes Carlos Quentin, Jermaine Dye, Alexei Ramirez, AJ Pierzynski (although I won't agree he's better than when he played for the Twins), Tadahito Iguchi, Miguel Olivo, Scotty Pods and Juan Uribe, to name a few. Finding "undervalued" pitching talent that's major league ready or struggling: Esteban Loaiza, Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Jose Contreras, Danks, Floyd, Humber, Sergio Santos, etc. Noted failures include Javy Vazquez, Mike MacDougal, Jeremy Sisco, David Aardsma and Nick Masset. The four biggest bones I have to pick with KW are: 1) Not the three-for-one Todd Ritchie deal, but both Swisher moves. 2) The complete failure to identify, develop/incubate younger hitters from the age of 16-23. This list includes Joe Borchard, Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Jeremy Reed, Aaron Cunningham, Miguel Gonzalez, Michael Morse, Miguel Olivo (both lists), Chris Getz, Jerry Owens, Rob Valido, Andy Gonzalez, Francisco Hernandez, Chris Carter, Beckham, Viciedo, Mitchell, T. Thompson, Danks, Flowers, Morel, B. Allen=jury still out 3) Blown draft picks on pitchers: Honel, K. McCulloch, Royce Ring, Lance Broadway, Aaron Poreda, Matt Long (2nd round), Ray Liotta, Jason Stumm, Sean Tracey, Tyler Lumsden, Matt Ginter, etc. 4) The complete dearth of ANY prospects developed from the Dominican Republic and Venezuela since Ordonez and C-Lee. This is especially galling because no advantage has been taken (seemingly) of Ozzie's background as what amounts to a national hero in his native country. The fact that over 30% of MLB talent comes from Latin America and we've been left out in the cold is inexcusable and can't all be blamed on Wilder or Jerry Krause. By the way, what has Krause done since he was brought on board as a chief scout down there? On the plus side, having drafted and developed Gio Gonzalez, Brandon McCarthy, Clayton Richard and Daniel Hudson isn't such a bad track record. On the other hand, other than Chris B. Young and Ryan Sweeney, position prospect development has been a barren wasteland.