caulfield12

QUOTE (rangercal @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 06:02 PM) Too many sensitive people in here. Facts are facts. We are towards the top half in payroll and bottom half in attendance. Do you honestly think that we are producing less revenue (including broadcast/media) with our higher ticket prices, premium pricing, parking, concessions and souvenirs than: Minnesota Seattle (could be close, SEA is a more expensive city than most) Texas Milwaukee Colorado Houston Atlanta Detroit (probably very close, we kill them with our national t.v. though, compared to their local media) All those teams are ahead of us to varying degrees in attendance, but I would argue we're actually between 10-12 in actual revenues produced....which is a different animal and I would need a recent sports marketing survey of stadium prices to prove my point. Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, Angels, Cardinals, Cubs, Mets, Giants and Red Sox I won't argue are generating more revenues/income. But we VERY EASILY could be #10 at revenue production even at #18 in attendance, and that's BARELY trailing TEX/SEA/MINN. Is our payroll pretty much right around 8-12 in the majors? This is a false argument by KW just to look at numbers (20000 for Dodgers) and not make the comment that this 20000 produced almost the same amount as 30000 at the 8 stadiums listed above, if you take into consideration all revenue streams.

In the end, Brian Anderson, was always closer to a 640 OPS than 740 OPS that we actually needed out of him. Very wrong about Gavin Floyd, although many of us here were...just not patient enough, even with Jon Danks. Going back to offseason, had wanted Crisp (that would be a disaster now) and Blake or Hudson. I can't honestly say I was asking for Edwin Jackson to be acquired everyday...but that seemed another no-brainer, though, because of Cooper and Jackson's raw stuff. Also feel a little vindicated that Alexei has pulled out of his slide, as usually am on Cubano's side defending Alexei, Contreras or Viciedo. Of course, remember the many arguments back and forth about Taveras, and that wouldn't have turned out well for the Sox, either.

I think you're seeing that half of this is really about the idea of insensitivity towards people are struggling economically (who isn't worried just a LITTLE bit?), not the specific words, but more the overall/general tone of the comments. People aren't comfortable with discretionary spending on luxury items (like taking fans to baseball games) when they're more concerned about rising interest rates and fees on their credit cards, declaring bankruptcy or walking out on a home that's lost 30-40% of its value (yes, I know Chicago is a bit more insulated than FL, Vegas, AZ, CA, etc.) or trying to decide between a family vacation or NOT taking one this year... No matter what, KW and JR come off a little bit like Mr. Potter from "It's a Wonderful Life." Iamshack has presented his views diligently throughout this thread, and, yes, the White Sox fanbase is more skeptical/fickle and not trusting, but this was built up over a long history of having the rug pulled out from under them with this team...it's like "love," once you're hurt deeply as a fan (too), you distance yourself and don't get as emotionally involved for fear of being hurt again. But I would think that 50% of this distrust or suspicion of the front office would have been cleared up by 2005 and the spending that has taken place (albeit spending incorrectly in many ways, spending nonetheless) on our payroll since then and now seems to be in the process of levelling back off to previous Sox teams (not 20-30 in payroll but closer to 15-20 than 5-10 overall in spending).

Russell, McCulloch, Silverio, Andy Gonzalez, Adam Russell, etc.

MLB projected a 7% across-the-board slide in revenues and attendance...we're almost double that, something like 14%. If you "X" out that double-header, we're at about 26,500 or a 14.5% decrease. However, there's nothing to say those numbers won't change and that we won't end up averaging 31,000 like last season... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance?s...mp;seasonType=2 We'd have to average 34K from here on out to get to a 30,000 per game average and about 36000 to get all the way back to 31000. It must be noted here is that the 2008 started to look at least "good" and were leading the division or close beginning as early as late May/June, whereas this team is least a month or six week behind the 08 version in terms of looking "pretty good." Then throw in all the aforementioned reasons noted... Even more interesting, it wouldn't be shocking if our attendance decrease fell right into line with our payroll decrease...cause and affect, KW? You have to spend money to make money, although you can't blame the White Sox and many other clubs for not ending up over-leveraged for the future with bloated contracts like the Cubs are loaded down with.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 03:58 PM) A bit yes, but not a precipitous plummet for either player. Shelby’s falloff being more significant then Allen’s. At the same time, Viciedo's "disappointing" start in AA (depending on your perspective....looking at all factors, age, defensive progression, offensive adjustments, etc.) probably deems him to be slipping less than Brandon. Obviously, Hudson is the one that is being lauded and praised as jumping, but we have to see a lot more from him at AA to begin projecting him as a 3 starter. I keep hearing Shirek's name as well...but continue to be "bullish" on Santeliz and Omogrosso having more of an impact that Shirek.

Seems we've done pretty well in our last few trades with the D-Backs (yes, the Chris Young trade has tipped, despite the Phil Rogers campaign to keep bringing it up when Young was playing so well for 1 1/2 seasons), no reason to think we'll end up getting hosed on this one, as our scouts know their system inside and out.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 03:52 PM) John Sickels had him in his top 100 picture, he also had him ranked 4th amongst our prospects http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/12/22/...te-sox-top-20-p http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/9/17/6...rospect-brandon Prospect Rankings* 2009 - #4 ranked for CHW http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...009/267205.html *According to Baseball America Brandon Allen was more then relevant to any prospect buff. Be more constructive with your feedback, please. But, in all fairness, if you had to re-rank him or Shelby III at the time of the trade, they'd both fallen quite a bit, true? Would you rather have Allen or C. Carter back at this point? Carter is putting up very good numbers in AAA this season...

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 09:40 AM) Not too often I completely agree with you but I do here. Allen was a nice prospect who has a chance to have a nice career, but he won't ever be more than an average 1B. That's not a knock at all, as that is a good ceiling, but he was far from untradeable. Between Viciedo/Phegley/Fields/Flowers or a FA, 1B is easy to fill. Pena gives us another good arm for the pen this year and provides insurance in case Linebrink goes down or Dotel gets traded. He's also under our control for a few more years after. I initially did not like the trade, but in order to get quality you need to give up quality in return. And for those who feel we didn't maximize his value, how do you know what his value was considered by teams across the league? At 24 and just starting AAA he was not old by any means, but he wasn't so young that screamed "centerpiece of a blockbuster". And as for packaging him, if you felt his best value was in a package deal doesn't that say something about his value? It's also funny how bothered some people seem to be here. I get it if you feel it was a bad trade, but you don't need to post it 15 times. Relievers aren't cheap either. They are always very valuable commodities in July. I like the move. Sad to see Allen go but I'm fine with the return we got for him, especially if Pena can return to how he pitched a couple years ago. Also, this also gives KW the ability to trade Dotel if a trade to his liking comes along, which I would not be opposed to. It's really Moneyball 101, although you do need to find someone more like Swisher (at his best, or Youkilis) and not like Ross Gload, Dan Johnson or Scott Hatteberg. But the fact is that 1B/DH/LF types are much cheaper to acquire than any other position on the field....except for maybe 2B, although you still pay a ton for the upper tier at that position, too, just that there aren't as many of them to choose from. I don't like losing our best young left-handed bat, but apparently KW is confident he can find another one out there along the lines of Dunn/Abreu/Thome...or via the offseason trade market. It also seems more and more likely we'll hold onto Paul Konerko for the duration of his contract.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 09:59 AM) The sox so far have been a .500 team. Kenny and management should expect the sox to be near the middle in attendance. I don't know if the league numbers have been posted anywhere. But if the Sox had a better record, then I'd expect more people to show up and watch them play. 18th...pretty close to TEX/SEA/Minnesota, but trailing those 3 teams and firmly entrenched in the "middle of the pack". However, as Dick Allen noted, top 4-5 pricing across the board on tickets, premium ticketing, parking, concessions (beer, etc.) and souvenirs. So we're probably in the 10-15 vicinity in terms of overall revenues generated, but 18th numbers-wise in attendance overall.

QUOTE (GO CHI SOX! @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 12:00 AM) Dotel will be a type A free agent at the end of the year so KW's asking price will and should be high. We just took a good young arm off the market, how many of those do u think are around or will be available by the trade deadline? We can ask for alot if we are the only ones listening to deals for arms. In order to get those draft picks, we'd be in the same exact situation we were in with Orlando Cabrera last season. The max you can cut a guy in arbitration is 20%, and most cases go to the players, certainly Dotel would probably be guaranteed an even higher salary than 2009 with the Sox if they offered $4.8 million and he asked for, let's say $6.5-7.0 million, we would have an incredibly high-priced, sometimes inconsistent 7th inning set-up man who, like Vazquez, has great numbers but the reality of him isn't quite as good as it looks on paper with K/BB/IP ratios. KW basically dared Cabrera and his agent to blink, but a lot of the Type A's will have learned their lessons (unless they change the compensation system again because of the economic landscape) and accept arbitration so as not to end up like Varitek, Cabrera, Garland, etc. It took Juan Cruz forever to find a home because of his Type A status this past offseason. Dotel will likely be traded before the end of the season (because you can move him much more easily than Linebrink) and Pena essentially replacing him...supported by Omogrosso, Ely, Link, Santeliz, Nunez, Rodriguez, Russell, etc.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 12:12 AM) What have the Mets won? The Cubs? It's not just about winning, it's about the market you're in. I think the White Sox would do well to study the Angels' example of how to compete and be perceived as almost "even" with the Dodgers in a city/region that probably had a similar split (60/40) of Dodgers to Angels fans. Moreno has reasonable prices, lots of new/innovative ideas because of his advertising and marketing background, reasonable parking prices...bringing in marquee names like Guerrero and Hunter and Texeira, etc. We will never compete on the same level as the Big 4 (Yankees/Cubs/Red Sox/Mets), but why can't we be close to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim? Or look at the A's as an example of the "second team" in a market being left in the dust and practically begging for relocation. Of any franchise I hope we could become it terms of consistency, attendance, tradition...it would probably be the Cardinals, who are the singular obsession in St. Louis, and they also have had two of the games' biggest superstars in McGwire in the 90's and Pujols now.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:19 PM) Attendance is down like 4,000 a game from 2008 right now, and if we continue to remain in the race, I'd bet by the end of the year the drop per game is even less than that. Fact is, there are a couple/few thousand people a night who aren't going to games this year because they can't afford it right now. That's a fact, not an excuse. Even if you cross out the Tigers' DH, it would put us around 26800 per game. That would leave us at 18th, just a bit behind TEX/SEA/MINN. Texas and Seattle have played better than us for most of the season, and this is the last year in the Dome for the Twins (priority for season tickets in the new season being connected to having 2009 season tickets factors in). http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Don't forget the presence of Cooper, Juan Nieves, Alexei Ramirez, Contreras, Castro (now), Ozzie Guillen and family...this organization has always made Hispanic players feel very welcome and at home, whereas they feel alienated/segregated in many clubhouses. Uribe was the favorite of many players, both black/white/Hispanic...maybe they can get through to this pitcher in a way other teams have failed before. Now if we could somehow get Chapman...the odds of that happening with KW's comment (for the 100th time) on money/economics just went down to about 5-10%.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:08 PM) He got bailed out that the division is severely underachieving. Which I think we (at SoxTalk) and KW also BET was what would happen...but how could he be surprised when we've had two good mini-runs and about 60 games of totally uninspired play (especially at home), shutouts nearly every week?? It's just not a good product...or it wasn't until recently. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. White Sox fans are not so easily duped by the ballpark "experience/ambience" as Cubs fans. So he's arguing because we're now close/closer to first place, even though we've looked average to below average for much of three months...that his gambling should be rewarded by 05/06/08 level attendance when the product on the field is clearly inferior (until two weeks ago) to the 2008 version?

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:03 PM) He points to the Dodgers series which was a premium series in the middle of the week and on top of it, the Sox raised ticket prices and parking and dumped payroll and the biggest thing is in this economy the comment shouldn't be made. I know KW is a savvy guy, but these comments could have come right out of the mouths of any GM/Chrysler/NYC major investment bank/AIG/Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac CEO...just makes him and the marketing staff seem completely out of touch with what's reality in the marketplace.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:02 PM) The worst part is that fake, unconcerned, half-ass non-committal diplomatic tone. He'd be better off saying, "Screw the fans for not showing up" instead of pretending to be somewhat unaware of the reasons for the low attendance. People are out of work, and they're not just going to come in droves after a nice stretch because last time your team did that they threw it right back in our faces by playing like horses***. And, you started DeWayne Wise in CF and backed it with your own personal mantra of "I don't care what people think," so take that you f***wad. I almost always defend Kenny and I think he's a top GM in the league, but some of his comments are really indefensible. Just come out and say whatever you're going to say, but don't sit there and hide behind this "I think" and "I don't know" bulls***. You know your farm system of previous years is a big part of the reason we're playing these young guys right now. Agreed...starting the season with Lillibridge, Owens (later), Anderson, Corky Miller, MacDougal, Betemit, D. Wise, Colon/Contreras...that was just PRACTICALLY BEGGING for trouble. Fields and Getz weren't sure things either, although both looked very good in ST. He really got bailed out a bit by Colon and Richard, now Contreras...and the emergence of Pods and Beckham to breathe some life into the offense. It's amazing the change now, and how other complementary players like Getz have less pressure upon them and can stay within themselves and quit trying to press to do too much. And that's without Quentin for two months.

If they deal Buehrle or Konerko (with the way he's been going this year), just wait... They can live without Dye, Thome, AJ, Jenks, etc., but those two players I listed will draw a significant backlash if they were ever to be traded, even though many times since he signed his new contract, Konerko has failed to live up to it...he's a lot like the Mike Sweeney of this organization and he will be sorely missed by the front office, and even moreso by the fans, when he's gone. And they do have Beckham (seemingly) to build around as one of the new faces of the organization, the Danks brothers, the Cubans, etc.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:49 PM) If anything it should be an eye opener to whoever on their staff set pricing. What do they expect? They should have handed back cash (or vouchers good for at least half the differential between premium and "regular" pricing) and that would have been a much better move than KW's constant bellyaching. Without Manny Ramirez, mid-week, day games, with how bad the team looked for much of the early season, the fact they'd already had this 59 World Series match-up in 2005 when we had a great team...well, nobody on this message board was surprised. Apparently the Sox marketing staff was, though, which tells you they are a little out of touch with reality or drinking too much of KW's intoxicating Kool-Aid.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:38 PM) Well yeah, but he still took dump #1 on us by blaming us for not being able to make a payroll adding trade, then took dump #2 on us by making a trade that's indefensible on paper. As far as I'm concerned, Kenny can go to hell right now. Marte for Guerrier Thornton for Borchard Cotts as part of the Foulke/Koch trade Jenks from the scrap heap Takatsu Hermanson DJ Carrasco Politte, etc. Just relax. Sisco and Aardsma went south on us, but if the Sox under KW are BEST at any one thing, it's finding underperforming or "miscoached" talent in other organizations...just not drafting it (until Beckham.) He also added salary with the addition of Ramon Castro, who hit a crucial 3 run homer for us in our winning streak.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:33 PM) Good, because MacDougal was lights out for the Sox when the first acquired him. It doesn't hurt to strenghten the bullpen. 2 back of Detroit and Detroit is woeful on the road and have 47 road games the second half. DET has gone 15-6 against the "weak" AL West and we've struggled against TEX and OAK but we still have quite a few more games remaining with those teams...we're 7-9 in six fewer games, accounting for 5 1/2 games in the standings.

Simple.... Allen is 24 already, so it's not like he is a "spring chicken," he's more of a late bloomer. We were dealing from a position of strength in our organization (Konerko, Fields, Viciedo, Flowers, Phegley, etc.) and Allen was no longer projected to be an impact bat based on this season's results, apparently. With Poreda, Carrasco, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, Jenks and Pena, we arguably now have the best bullpen in baseball, at least from a "potential" standpoint, in terms of a collection of arms. It's the same principle KW operated under when he had the excess starting pitcher in the organization in 2005 and 2006...to deal from a position of strength instead of one of weakness and desperation. Let's wait to see if Pena can outperform Dotel at significantly less money and Dotel (or dreaming, Linebrink) can be leverage for yet another piece...

Not to mention the fact the Dodgers were playing without their biggest draw in Manny Ramirez... C'mon KW, you're smarter than this. Nobody is buying what you are selling. Go work for the Yankees/Mets/Dodgers/Angels/Red Sox and see how it goes there...you have a lifetime appointment as GM of the White Sox, but that doesn't give you a right to be condescending to the fanbase on so many occasions. After all PR/Marketing go hand-in-hand, and I guarantee none of KW's comments have ever inspired fans to support the team, they've probably had a negative affect of turning the casual Sox fans on the fence away from attending a game, just to spite KW/JR.

Where's Dick Allen in this thread? KW should be writing speeches for some of the politicians getting caught with their hands in the cookie (or "hunnies") jar. Ridiculous. The one thing people keep forgetting about is that the White Sox ticket, parking and concessions prices are among the Top 5 in all of baseball. They should do what the Angels and Dodgers do in a similar economic market and try to be more fan-friendly with prices...and not run off the average, middle class family of 4 living in the suburbs. More half-price nights (weeknights, MON/THUR), better promotions during midweek or afternoon games...not just weekends. Stop relying so much on Saturday night fireworks shows, stop relying so much on 05/06 and get creative again. Don't sit back and insult the fans. They have greater revenue generating ability from the stadium naming rights, corporate sponsorships in Chicago, not to mention the luxury box revenues.... While they have been 5-8 in payroll, I think the reality is that they are closer to 12-15 in terms of revenue production. The Twins are ahead of us in attendance by a bit (partially because of fans looking at season ticket packages for 2010), but NO WAY they have close to the same prices across the board that we charge our fans.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:34 PM) I wholeheartedly disagree that this trade is a "no-brainer." A "no-brainer" means getting a guy who is awesome now and under control, not someone who doesn't miss bats in the National League. I have faith in Kenny's judgement so I'll wait and see, but this was definitely not a no-brainer. Carter and Allen were basically the same player, raw athletic 1B drafted out of high school with lots of power, except one hit lefty and the other righty. I have no idea why Carter would have a ton more potential than Allen. Allen to me looked like the better player. If Carter played in Birmingham and Allen had stayed in Birmingham then their numbers would likely almost mirror each other. I don't understand how we can just trade Allen and then talk about Fields. Allen is a lot better bet than Fields at this point. Look at it this way...if it does come to pass. Jim Thome (DH, assuming Konerko stays) and Tony Pena >>> Brandon Allen and Octavio Dotel for 2010 They'll just take the money from Dotel and that would be a nice number (maybe a bit higher) to keep Thome around one more year...he certainly doesn't have any reason to want to leave Chicago or go to the NL, so it seems his options are pretty limited. And getting to 600 homers in a White Sox uniform would be another nice story for the franchise.