caulfield12

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 14, 2010 -> 02:22 AM) What a crock of s***. The Twins are the Sox biggest competitors this year and it's to the point where it is almost a yearly occurance. The fact that they can't beat them or that the fans expectations are to split is outrageous. I guarantee you that neither Red Sox nor Yankees fans ever go into that series and think that going 9-9 "is hoping for too much." This is a major league baseball team and they should have the ability to beat the living hell out of the Twins. Maybe I'm just a crazy optimist, but I expect the Sox to win the next two series. The Sox will have their best 3 pitchers going against the Twins next week, and if you can't win 2 out of 3 with your best 3 going against the team in direct competition with you, then you probably don't deserve to be in the postseason anyways. I went back and looked at the season, head-to-head over the last decade. 2001=5-14 2002=8-11 2003=9-10 2004=9-10 2006=9-10 2007=9-9 2008=8-10 (9-10 counting Game 163) 2009=6-12 Nothing terrible, right? Overall 63-86. Well, definitely not great, that's for sure. (I'll add in the 2000 and 2005 numbers later to see how much it helps). Here's where the big problems start for Sox fans. After the All-Star Break during that time period, 23-48 (14-20 at USCF) against the Twins. 9-28 in Minnesota, AFTER the All-Star Break. That's why I put 2-4 (realistically) is about the best I'd hope for.

CircleChange11 says: August 13, 2010 at 10:51 am [1] You know who would appreciate these baseball metrics … NERDS … highly educated guys who went to academic colleges, and like to nerd it up. Ohlendorf and the like. Academic types that enjoy the details of a formula/scenario. You know how many of those guys are in MLB? Not many. [2] I would also bet that guys tend to like sabermetric stuff when they lead in a category. Want me to speak on the wonders of FIP? Show me that I’m the best at it, and my other bad stats are due to team defense. I’m all over that. I’d bet right now, Cliff Lee really appreciates the K:BB metric. It’s probably his favorite stat. *grin* [3] Not only do many major leaguers not pay attention to what we say … many of them think we have no right to say it. The whole not speaking from experience part. IMO, we’re like a homeless guy writing a book on how to make millions … in the opinion department. The value of sites like this are the extensions of the mega-research done and brought to the masses. But a lot of what is written here is just wrong opinion. If someone were to keep “individual W-L records” for the authors, what would the winning % be for each guy? [4] The article (by Dave Cameron) says that Yuni (Betancourt) has the range of a wilted teen. No, Yuni has the range of a major league shortstop, which makes him what? 1 out of 10 million people to have the skill/ability? You really think any athlete is going to come and read stuff like that and give credence to some keyboard jockey's opinion? [5] When Crash Davis gets a 5y/110M contract and for justification the GM states, “He has the most WAR of any catcher over the last 4 years.” THEN, Nuke will say, “Hey Annie, what’s all this WAR stuff.” We drastically overestimate our influence and popularity in the mainstream. Growing, yes? Influential? No. Potential to educate lots of fans? Yes. from fangraphs.com message boards

I think the Orioles gave out a ton of money to Denys Baez, Jamie Walker and maybe Chad Bradford 3-4 years ago. Those were not the best-laid plans, it's like picking mutual funds coming off their highest performances and thinking they'll repeat...very rarely does that happen with relievers, Linebrink was reliable as they come in the NL for about 8-10 years and he basically fell apart after his first four months with the White Sox.

If they brought him up to finish the season in the SAL with Kannapolis, those results would be a LITTLE more impressive. Still, for an SEC college player, you really have to see how they fare in the Carolina/Cal/Florida State Leagues before you can make ANY predictions that remotely approximate predictive validity.

2-4 seems like a much safer prediction against the Twins, 3-3 might be hoping a bit too much.

Oakland gets 12 hits and has managed only 2 runs somehow. Twins escape from another bases loaded, one out situation with a double play behind Jesse Crain. Carter has left 5 men on base, of course.

2-0 now Twins leading. Can we seriously have a mulligan on this last week?

Thanks, Gio Gonzalez. Bases loaded walk to Kubel, which might not be the worst thing if he can get out of it somehow. Our ex prospects who are pitching well can't even seem to beat the Twins.

The Jonathan Ogden and Pitino ones were the best....after the first two Pitino ads, the British actor is QUITE a bit over the top, but it's actually pretty funny and I bet they had to do 100 takes because everyone was cracking up filming with "GUY"

You could put this year's DH fiasco right up there with the year (maybe it was 2007) that we didn't have any veteran relievers (specifically loogies) and we auditioned about 13 of them in Spring Training. Even though it was the last position on the baseball team, the relief problems stuck around for most of that season, with the exception of Jenks being very good (I think that was the year he had his streak of innings without giving up a run, yes?)

I think there are definitely two generations mostly reflected here at SoxTalk. The ones who are mostly in their early to mid 20's, college students or recent graduates...and then those that grew up and actually remember White Sox baseball in the 1990's, 80's and even the 1970's, especially in Old Comiskey Park. I would guess those younger fans (unlike myself) tend to be a bit more confident and optimistic, perhaps a bit less patient, having witnessed perhaps the most successful generation of Sox baseball, certainly since the 1950's and probably all the way back to the teen's and aught's. Having suffered through so much disappointment, it's a bit easier to become cynical and jaded about Sox baseball. Heck, the same feeling pervades many posters (and I'll admit to being a big obsessed with beating the Twins) in their lack of belief in this current team being able to overcome the Twins. Actually, it's not just me. There's a reason (besides the heat) that none of the three games against the Twins were close to being sell-outs. I really think that much of the fanbase believes that June/July was a mirage and that the team will fade down the stretch. EVERYONE in baseball (and probably half of outer space if aliens are tuned into message boards) knows that the White Sox are at least one hitter short. It's ironic, because in 2003 and perhaps part of 2010, there has been the belief that the White Sox had the pitching to compete with any team in baseball...accompanied by the belief that something was missing in terms of a hitter (or team chemistry and managing in the case of Manuel), etc. Actually, I would also just throw out a number of 25-33% who really question Ozzie's ability to lead this baseball team, doubts that have become progressively larger over the last five years (although interestingly, I don't think the doubters will be quieted by the "miracle" comeback into contention and first place this season). I'm not sure what would be worse, actually, being a White Sox fan and believing your team will lose to the Twins again, or being a Twins' fan and believing your team will make the playoffs and lose in the first round (which has happened on 4/5 occasions this decade, with the lone exception being a defeat of the A's, an even smaller market team). I suppose they can always rejoice in 1987 and 1991, but "modern" Twins' fans in their teen and twenties don't have those memories to fall back on for comfort.

The question with Allen is whether he would be good enough to start for the White Sox in 2011 and replace Konerko? I don't think the answer there is yes, I think it's MAYBE, as part of a platoon. Theoretically, you could have Viciedo and Allen together, that would be a nice tandem. Somehow, Teahen would have to fit into the picture, the same player who doesn't really fit unless you logically bench Kotsay, which Guillen may or may not do. An athletic, cost-controlled 1B who will get you 350 AB's is worth more than a back-end reliever, FWIW. The problem is that Carter hasn't proven he can even put up an 800 OPS at that position. Carter's a bit of a different story, but are you going to give up Quentin's production in 2008 and 2010 to get Carter back for 2011? That's clearly a huge debate, and 90% of the board will come down on the side of CQ, injuries aside, because proven MLB production almost always trumps potential, unless you're talking a Mike Stanton, Josh Hamilton, Miguel Cabrera type of impact bat, and Carter's clearly not in that category. To tell the truth, I'm not even sure KW would trade Viciedo for Carter straight up. Maybe.

We are better at SS and in CF with Ramirez and Rios. You can make "ability" arguments for Quentin over Cuddyer in RF and Beckham over Hudson at 2B (not this year for Beckham, clearly). You can even argue Vizquel over Valencia if you want. But when they have Young, Thome, Kubel, Morneau, Mauer and Cuddyer in the line-up and healthy at the same time, they clearly overmatch us because of our offensive weaknesses in LF, 3B, 2B (for most of the season), DH and C. The Twins didn't really win that game, we just gave it to them in so many ways...and that's how they often beat you. I like to think of them as the Martina Hingis of baseball teams (although they're clearly better offensively than their 2002-04/06 versions)...they just keep hitting the ball back at you and wait for you to make a mistake or error. They're not as fast or as gifted defensively as in the past, they have more sluggers without sound fundamentals and fewer role players, but they're good. But, like Martina Hingis, they're outgunned when they play the best...in this case, they're at least one pitcher short in the starting rotation. Still, Liriano (although erratic) has great stuff, Pavano and Baker can be solid, although I think of them more as 3's or 4's than true aces, although Pavano has been their best pitcher for most of the season, with the exception of a 8-10 start stretch for Liriano before he started to fall apart.

We just didn't show up ready to play. Gavin was tight and didn't have any confidence until the 4th. The defense and balk gave up two early runs. We couldn't hit to save our life with RISP and Liriano got ahead of all those hitters and had them on their heels. Too bad Viciedo's ball didn't go out for a grand slam or it would have turned out completely different. And Quentin is laughable in the OF, once again.

Were those cheers for Liriano from Twins' fans?

What's up with the crowd? I think, for some reason, the Chicago fans have not warmed up to this team...it's incredible the reaction that last inning. Strange they didn't even really get all that excited at any point in the inning, then booing at the end of Quentin's strikeout.

I could have sworn someone said he was throwing upwards of 100 MPH these days...that's why I brought his name back up, since he was in the Hudson category of being on quite a few lists as a Top 40-60 MILB prospect coming out around the time of the trade.

So the best argument for Teahen is half of a DH/1B platoon with Viciedo next year. The problem with that is Viciedo's never going to learn how to be a big league hitter playing 1-3 games per week. In the last 10 days, the scouting reports have caught up with him and it's very hard to adjust as a part-time player. I really don't want to see Teahen in the OF either, although he would be a SLIGHT improvement over Quentin, it would definitely not be strengthening our OF defense compared to using Andruw Jones out there.

At one point, those Braves' teams looked to have Andruw and Chipper Jones, Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux and Steve Avery all headed to the Hall of Fame. Avery's career was wiped out by the injuries, and Jones has very little chance to make it now, although he will probably get a lot of votes because of his 10 Gold Gloves.

The only way he serves the White Sox as any type of "value" in the line-up is playing RF/DH/1B and hitting at LEAST a 775 OPS clip, that's a minimum number. To do that, he's got to walk a ton, hit a LOT of doubles and 15-18 homers. That's a tall task, considering he's only done it once for about 4 months of a season, not even a full/complete year. And that's ONCE in his entire big league history.

Theoretically, if Young was able to play in 2006, you can argue that team MIGHT have made it with McCarthy as the fifth starter. But I doubt it, and Young probably was a season away at that point, if I remember correctly. At one point, we had Rowand, Reed, Anderson, Young and Anthony Webster as our CF depth chart. So it at least had the appearance of being promising for the future and the one area of strength to trade away from. Another very useful power pitcher we traded was Frank Francisco (from Boston for Howry) as part of the package to get Everett from Texas, although you can always bring up the 2005 argument with Cotts or Everett. He wasn't exactly in our system for very long, though. Some might put trading away Nick Masset to the Reds on their list. RHP Daniel Cortes' name has come up again this season for his career again being on an upward track, I haven't even looked up his stat line...I think it was him and Lumsden in the MacDougal trade.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AhFY...i-greinke081110 National baseball writers are now picking up on the story too, can't be making David Glass too comfortable.

QUOTE (D_B_U @ Aug 11, 2010 -> 10:29 AM) I doubt that AJ would ever go back to the Twins. He hates them. As a twinkies fan(promise i wont spam this board) I was surprised Thome signed with us. He really didn't have many realistic options. He had to stay in the AL, and there wasn't very much certainty about what Delmon Young was going to produce or whether he would make it through the entire offseason and full 2010 schedule with the Twins. Not trading him...along with picking up Thome and Hudson, getting Pavano off the scrap heap last year, those were the smartest moves that Bill Smith ever made, and he's made quite a few bad ones (Lamb, Livan Hernandez, Everett) in the last couple of years.

Ozzie Guillen will have his own movie, "Despicable Me II" if the White Sox lose this thing by one game. (Yes, I know, I know, it will be because of the starting pitching not carrying us and NOT because of Mark Kotsay. With that said, I dare the White Sox to bing back Kotsay/Jones as the DH combination if they lose to the Twins again this year).

Past excuses: 1) Metrodome 2) Santana, Liriano and Radke just pitched "a whale of a ballgame," they're bulldogs/competitors, blah blah blah 3) Carlos Gomez 4) Piranhas 5) Air conditioning/vents 6) The Twins just "want it more" and are hungrier 7) Small market team that was almost eliminated from MLB against big city boys 8) Gardenhire is better manager, Ryan is better GM 9) Twins are faster, play better defense, don't make mistakes, strong fundamentally, let their opponents beat themselves 10) Torii Hunter robbed us 11) LeCroy, Hocking, Lew Ford, Shannon Stewart, Jacque Jones, Mientkiewicz, Koskie, Blanco, Redmond, Bobby Kielty, etc., somehow beat us. Now the Twins have almost an equal payroll, their new stadium, higher revenues, definitely more star or superstar offensive players (Mauer, Young and Morneau, with Kubel/Cuddyer/Thome not far behind)...so what's the new excuse? That the White Sox are actually underestimated and are the real underdogs instead? Media bias slurping the Twins for their perceived "greatness"?