DBAHO

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 21, 2005 -> 12:39 AM) Oh yeah, I agree. Anyone think the Sox might try and see if Cotts can become a starter again? I've heard rumors of it, and it might be worth a try. If he fails, then put him back in relief again. Whatever we do, we need to get a few cheaper pitchers for the next few years. Our big 3 will cost a ton. I'd say it's a possibility, I know people like YASNY think that could happen, but as for me personally, if the shoe fits, stick with it. He should be our top LH guy out of the pen next season and main setip guy with Politte. And with the likes of Haigwood, Gonzalez etc. coming up in the minors, Cotts might not ever get the chance with us, but we'll see.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 21, 2005 -> 12:37 AM) There's no such thing as moral victories now. You win or you lose, that's all that matters. We played like absolute s*** in Minnesota, and still won two games. Who cares how we played though, it resulted in 2 games off of the magic number. Yep I don't care how the hell we win, all these complaints about "Oh we should be kicking KC's ass 1,000,000 to -99, why aren't they doing better, yada yada yada" so long as they get the f***ing job done, and take 1 off the magic number.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Sep 21, 2005 -> 12:34 AM) We played well in one game in the last 40923u20235 games (yep, there's a "u" in there) and we still lost. We're quite possibly in the middle of the worst regular season collapse in the entire history of baseball, and this would only add on to the s*** heap which is the history of the White Sox. That is why people are angry. Count em 1 by 1 for me please.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 21, 2005 -> 12:30 AM) I thought KW had shown a lot of interest in Vazquez in the past? Yeah, but there's not a great need for Vazquez right now with a rotation of Buerhle/Garcia/Garland/Contreras/B-Mac in 2006.

QUOTE(JoshPR @ Sep 21, 2005 -> 12:23 AM) Say no to Vazquez, Would get murdered in USCF. How about Troy Glaus? Would like a left handed hitting Firstbaseman. Overbay would help some. What's the tracey love fest? Don't sweat it guys. Reinsdork ain't gonna spend 1 - We never floated the idea of trading for Vazquez. 2 - Troy Glaus is a 3rd baseman. He's going nowhere, since he's really the only D-Back who can field at 3B effectively and contribute really good offensive numbers. 3 - Tracy is younger than Overbay, can play more positions, and doesn't have 2nd half slumps. 4 - What's with the increases in payroll over the past few seasons then?

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:33 PM) Can't Vazquez make himself a FA this offseason? Also, I'm pretty sure that the package you suggest wouldn't be enough to get such a promising hitter like Tracy. I guarantee the DBacks could get a better deal than that. Remember, the DBacks have been close a couple of times to acquiring Contreras. Also, the DBacks don't have a lot of good outfield prospects in their system. They might be very interested in the likes of Sweeney or Young. Wrong on the OF prospects. They've got Carlos Quentin, Jon Zeringue and Josh Kroeger who are in their top 5 prospects. Vazquez can only make himself a FA by demanding a trade and by all reports he hasn't done anything to think he'll do that. Haigwood's an Arizona native, so he's probably be appealing to their fan base. Brian Anderson would too, but they're stocked with OF's as it is at the moment. Depends on what teams will give up for Tracy, but that package would be a start. Sub in Liotta for Bajenaru, and it's a little more appealing. They haven't got 1 pitching prospect in their top 6.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:28 PM) Tracy will cost us Contreras. I don't know about that. I'd say Arizona would prefer good young pitching, than to established pitching right now, considering they have Vazquez, Webb, Ortiz, Halsey and Vargas in there. For instance, a Marte, Bajenaru, Haigwood package may look appealing to them.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:23 PM) We need two hitters in the 3/4/5 group if we are serious about next season... and that is with re-signing konerko. I see us signing mueller and trading for another hitter, either a three hole hitter or a clean-up man. And I think Chad Tracy is going to end up being that guy, and I hope so, because I'd take over Lyle Overbay who I know most people want as the replacement 1B/DH.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:16 PM) FWIW, I had no clue how crappy Blalock was doing during this 2nd half of the season. Could be a good buy low type of risk. I'd agree, but I can't go past those HOME / AWAY splits. I wouldn't give up what you've suggested (El Duque and Marte would be what I'd offer for starters), but I'd be open to acquiring him still, if the price was right.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:15 PM) I think he may go for an incentive laden deal much like nomar considering he will only be 31 at the start of next season. That will give him plenty of time to still get a 3-4 year deal down the road. Yeah exactly what I thought. Speaking of Nomar, he's probably headed to the Dodgers or somewhere else, but if he is going to play 3B, could possibly be an option, but I doubt people would be for it.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:10 PM) Our biggest liability the past few years has been 3b production, and Blalock is clearly the best offensive 3b that has the slightest chance of being obtained. I'm a big advocate of the Sox trading Contreras this offseason for a big time offensive hitter as Jose's stock will never be higher. Obviously, Marte will be traded, and I think it's safe to say that Sweeney's stock has fallen big time this season. I would actually try and get Dunn from the Reds for that similar package. I'd say Adrian Beltre could be had, although I know most here probably wouldn't be in favor of that. Shea Hillenbrand's another. If you just look at the position, only about 8 or 9 players who play 3B everyday, have an OPS over .800. It's hard to find a good hitter there.

QUOTE(SoxFanForever @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:08 PM) Durazo had season ending surgery. It is questionable he will come back and post the same type of numbers. Sounds like a good risk / reward type of situation then. If the Sox could get him cheaply on a 1 year deal so he can rebound, I'd be for it. It's only his elbow as well, so it's not like Frank and the ankle injury.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:05 PM) Why do you keep bringing this up? Everyone outside of the so called ''experts'' knew we would either take first place or second place this season. I am not just saying just us sox fans... fans from other message boards and sites that actually have some intelligent people on them... and you know the sites i am talking about. Sox are the first team to have a 15 game lead at one point and have it drop below 3 games. Wo0t! Someone is to blame... hell alot of people are to blame... but i am getting sick and tired of the '' if you knew on september 21st, 2005 that the white sox would have a 2.5 game lead in the division...''. Sox blow this lead and still get the wild card it is an embarrasment considering the commanding lead they had in the division and had for a long time. We have learned we cannot beat playoff caliber teams on a regular basis. So i don't see why we should be so excited about the next two games even if it does look like the matchups are in our favor. The indians are playing the same exact way we were in the first half when we looked like a playoff team... and they looked like s***... now the roles are completely reversed. Can you show me some of those sites qwerty (and I'm being serious here). The sites I looked at like Hardball Times etc. pretty much had Minny and Cleveland going 1,2 in the Central. Of course it's embarrissing if the Sox lose the division. But with what Cleveland have done in the 2nd half with their schedule, it was always going to be possible, since the Sox were never going to keep up their 1st half pace. Am I excited about the next 2 days? Yeah, I am. We took 4 runs off Cleveland's best pitcher, and the offense looked a lot better. If the starting pitching can do their job, I think we can score enough runs to win the next 2 games. And Cleveland plays a lot better away than at home, something to remember when we play them in the final series of the season.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 06:02 PM) Giles and Mueller would be good additions, even though I don't think Mueller would be quite as good outside of Fenway and that supporting cast. Durazo wouldn't be a great fit, as he's injury prone and doesn't exactly fit in well with Ozzieball. My plan would be to trade Contreras, Marte, and Sweeney for Hank Blalock, and then try and find a 5th starter for about 4 or 5 million. I don't think Duque has ANY trade value. Durazo had a .913 OPS in 03 or 04 in Oakland, imagine what he could do in Chicago at the Cell. I don't think we need the DH to fit into the Ozzieball mold, we still need some guys who can mash the ball. Mueller's stats away from Fenway aren't great, but I still think he'd do a good job for the Sox. Nothing more than a 2 year deal though. Hank Blalock on the other hand, doesn't have a good K/BB ratio, is terrible away from Texas, and has an OPS around what Aaron Rowand has. No way I'd give up Contreras AND Marte AND Sweeney for him.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:56 PM) Jason bay is a perfect 20-20 at stealing bases this year. One away from setting the record for most perfect in a season. And they offered him a nice new deal;

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:51 PM) Trust me, I think it would be a travesty if KW got fired, but Ozzie kept his job. I also think that if you see the Sox miss out on the playoffs, you're not going to see the increase in payroll. I think it's safe to say if the Sox miss the playoffs, PK will be gone, and Everett and Frank will not be brought back. Personally, I feel like our offense needs a superstar. If you look at the payroll figures for the past 5 seasons, you will see increases in each year. With the way attendance has been, I've got no doubt that will continue, and the Sox will have to spend if they want to keep pace with the Indians and Twinkies for the next few years. Everett's probably a goner, I doubt Frank will be back. I'm more optimistic on Konerko, I still think he'll stick around unless either the Dodgers or Angels come in with a real big offer. Doubt he goes to an east coast team because he doesn't like it there. As for the offense, Brian Giles, Bill Mueller and Erubiel Durazo should be priorities in my mind. Get those 3, things will be looking much better for the Sox.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:41 PM) DBAHO....I'm not saying I disagree with you, but if this team doesn't make the playoffs, either KW or Ozzie won't be back. Since Ozzie got the extension, I think KW will get fired, and Steve Stone would be the new GM. Whoever the GM is, I just hope they know that they won't win games because of Ozzieball. Rather, the players are what make Ozzieball work. By that, I mean the best the hitters, the better the offense. What the Sox have is a lack of tough outs in the order. And I think that's a knee jerk reaction, and not the right one quite frankly. KW did a great job in the off-season, he brought in Jermaine Dye, who's outprodued the likes of Richard Hidalgo and Maggs Ordonez etc. He re-signed Cliff Politte to a cheaper deal, and he's prospered. And I think he'll make moves to upgrade this lineup in the off-season, and that will be his #1 priority. The rotation won't need changing much, with B-Mac stepping in and El Duque getting shipped out. The pen may need a new lefty assuming Marte is given the heave - ho. Upgrades need to be made at 3B, DH and maybe SS/CF/LF. And with the increase in payroll (5-10M at least), I think he'll do that. I can't see how KW can get fired, while the likes of Dave Dombroski and Dave Littlefield continue to get off scot free.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:32 PM) You and I might realize that, but 95 pct of the Sox fan base is going to call for the head of KW or Ozzie. Here's a big worry I have with Ozzie: he was awful handling his pitchers last season. He continues to do the same s*** this season, and still doesn't seem to actually learn from his mistakes during the season. Every Sox fan in the world knew that Dye can't bunt. You know that I have been down on this team all season, even when they were 15 games up. One of the main reasons was because I had absolutely no faith that Ozzie could help us win close games down the stretch. He has 13 games to earn his job, IMO. What that 95% needs to realize is that this team was never going to be "that good" to win this division by 15 games. It was never going to happen, all the experts in the pre - season etc had us coming in 3rd and 4th. Next - season will be the key for Ozzie and his handling of pitchers. Marte isn't likely to be here in 2006, so Cotts should step up as the main guy. Hermy should move into a setup role with Politte, while Jenks takes over as the closer. Remember this with Ozzie, first half of the season the bullpen was rolling, almost every pitcher except for Viz were having great seasons. Now that's not the case at all, and that's probably been a big key in what's happened to the Sox in this 2nd half. And yes guys like Dye shouldn't be asked to bunt. But we need more guys in the lineup say if you bring in a Bill Mueller for Joe Crede, who can do that type of stuff, to make the lineup more versatile. One of the priorities in the off-season should be to bring in an experienced bench coach to help Ozzie though. No offense to Harold Baines, but losing Joe Nossak really hurt this organisation.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:26 PM) So KW will be the scapegoat? If the worse case scenario occurs, you know there will have to be changes made. I don't think there will be changes made even if we miss the playoffs. If anyone's going to held accountable, my guess is a Greg Walker or Harold Baines. Remember it's not like KW didn't try at the deadline, and you saw what Florida gave up for Ron Villone (and you know how well that's gone for them).

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 05:14 PM) Here's my question for anyone that doesn't want Ozzie fired if the Sox miss the playoffs: What good is he as a manager if he can't motivate his team enough to hold on to a 15 game lead with 2 months left in the season? Since he's obviously a poor strategical manager, he's a liability as a manager if he can't prove an ability to keep his team focused. Motivation isn't the problem, it's the decision making. I'm probably one of the people who defends Ozzie on here, but my argument to that would be that he was good enough to get the team to a 15 game lead in the 1st place. Ozzie isn't going anywhere so we just have to hope handling the pen etc. is a learning experience for him, and he can become much better at it in the future.

QUOTE(aboz56 @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 02:45 PM) You're going to need a miracle. The smart thing for him would be to let someone else, who knows what they are doing, make the decisions. The guy could get outmanaged by a first year teeball coach. Would you prefer the Jerry Manuel era again Alex?

QUOTE(forrestg @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 02:44 PM) In the ninth Crede made an out then to the top of the order.. I though how clutch is Pods he gets a hit then comes mr clutch, iguchi strikes out and Paulie does what he does best pops out. Is there a stat that would mean pop out at crucial time. I think he would lead the lead.. Give KOnerko a rest play Gload. Konerko's been our best hitter in the 2nd half of the season. No way you sit him.

Everyone having problems with the Heimlich Maneuver lately or something?

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Sep 20, 2005 -> 02:40 PM) Wow what a choke job by the Cowboys. Worse call was on 4th down you throw a pass short of the 1st down marker I dont know what they were thinking. Didn't see it myself since I'm at Uni, but it hasn't been a good day. I hope Parcells is chewing out their asses right now, especially who was covering Moss. But yes sounded like a stupid call, John Shoop like (you see there's some Bears knowledge for ya).

That's an excellent site, definitely going to be used. Thanks for the link.