TheFutureIsNear

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 10, 2013 -> 10:03 AM) Considering De Aza was a more valuable player than Dominic Brown last year, yes, I would balk at it because of De Aza. I'd also balk because of Jones and because of Santiago plus all those guys. Like I said, I have no problem with Santiago for Brown, straight up. That's about perfect value. This is why I hate that WAR has become mainstream. Brown was better in every way offensively last year, but because De Aza was below average in CF he's the more "valuable" player. Makes a ton of sense.

QUOTE (wardo @ Dec 10, 2013 -> 08:31 AM) Not at all. And i'm just using the Cubs as an example. I think that is a realistic return because although he has been an ace and is very controllable, there are a lot of question marks with him. His mechanics are unorthodox, and he's still young. You don't know in a few years if his arm will give out and he will continue to have his current success. Plus a team is not going to give every one of their major-league ready prospects for one guy. Honestly if i was Hahn i'd look to move him right now, when the demand for him is probably higher than it ever will be. I just don't think the return is going to be as much as expected, and fans will be upset. The Rays got the #1 hitting prospect and a top 20 or so pitching prospect in return for shields just last year. Sale has WAY more value that shields. If you're using the Cubs as an example the trade starts with Soler and 1 of Almora/Bryant. Starts there....I'm not very familiar with the Cubs pitching prospects but at least 1 of their top 3 would also be in that deal.

They just had Towers on MLB Tonight live....basically said they are indeed trying to be very active. They are looking for both a power bat, but SP is #1 priority if he can get only 1.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 05:59 PM) No because of Santiago and Jones So I suppose young hitters are just going to fall into our laps? Gotta give up something to get something. Jones is replaceable anyway, you're really worried about him? Webb and Petricka could easily replace him next year.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 06:00 PM) Why do you keep ignoring the other pieces I included ? Why didn't you answer when your timetable is for when we can win the division ? Pitching and D wins a lot of games if Abreu and Avi Garcia hit. You have to get better at many position. I just got us better at 3 positions , younger , more LH better D and with a cheaper payroll without rolling the dice on too many prospects . Aren't those all thinsg we want ? You're not all of a sudden go from 65 wins to 100.If the Sox are lucky it'll be a steady climb for the next 2 years and then compete in 2016 . Anything before that and you're really kidding yourself and with a bunch of prospects instead of MLers you're looking at even longer when including A ballers and rookie league players. Got to get to 80 wins before we get to 90. Because the other pieces I agree on....except Gregorious. Not because I don't like him, but because I doubt the Dbacks trade their starting SS. And you edited in the timetable part after I already replied....All depends on whether we trade Sale on that. If Sale is traded it pushes that date back another year. But 2016 to be serious contenders doesn't sound bad. I don't think 2015 is out of the realm of possibility if Sale is kept and a couple of the right moves are made. My stance is that Pollack and Parra aren't good enough to make us win now and they aren't even close to the type of guys who you can build around. If you disagree that's cool, but personally I'm taking prospects over those 2 any day of the week.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 05:47 PM) I think Brown's incredibly overrated. He's good against righties, but much of that power came from one hot stretch. Outside of May, he hit 15 homers. That's also a very talented #3 starter with a lot of service time remaining, a good bullpen arm with a lot of service time remaining, and a CF who can, in fact, play CF but not particularly well for a left handed bat who can't play in the field and can't hit lefties. I can spin too. I'd start out by offering merely Santiago for Brown, straight up. I'd have a bit of wiggle room, but I would not give up 3 players for him. I gave up 3 because I didn't care about the 2 of them and they kinda make sense for the Phillies. You'd seriously balk at a Brown trade because of De Aza?

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 05:34 PM) I know it would take a lot for Brown and I know the type of player he is so I don't want anything to do with trading for him. 25 year old lefty with 30 HR power for our #3 starter, a replaceable bull pen arm, and a CF who can't play CF that we all are trying to replace anyway is too much though? Are you just against trading a pitcher in general? If not what are you really expecting back in return for a guy like Santiago?

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 05:10 PM) Average hitters still young enough to do better and really good fielders . Do you not value defense at all ? Gregorius , Pollock are good fielders, Parra is one of the best. We get younger, payroll drops, more left handed. 3 starters who are better than what we have already have and 3 ( 2 if we get Corbin instead of Bradley) prospects. Uprgrading 2 OF positions unless you think De Aza and Vicedo ( who I didn't trade ) are better. A SS who is right now better than Alexei younger and cheaper. great D at 3 position, the best pitching prospect in baseball or one of the best LH pitchers in the NL, Az 10th (by some) rated prospect in Williams and 8 th in Davidson. Sorry if I want to get better right away than wait to see who busts and who doesn't with a bunch of under 25 yrs olds who aren't all that impressive to begin with. Sorry but you're kidding yourself if you think we'd even win 80 games if Pollack and Para are starting in the OF. Defense is important and all, but if your 3 starting OF's are going to hit a combined 30 HR's you might as well just stay home because you have 0% chance to compete in the American League. Pollack and Parra would be stop gaps on a team that has no shot to compete.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 02:33 PM) That is a TERRIBLE trade for us. Just horrible. Lol how? We would be getting a guy who was a top 5 prospect in baseball 2 years ago and hit 27 home runs in his 1st season in the bigs. Would love to hear what you think it would take to get Brown.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 04:28 PM) Because they are both really good fielders and our outfielders are very bad fielders and Alexei and De Aza are both older then them so the team does get younger and better defensively by a long shot . Do you want bad fielders or 30+ yr olds or Alexei's $10M contract ? I'd rather have established ML players thanlottery picks. I dont see any AZ minor league hitter who looks all that ML ready with high upside. Eaton sure isn't it. So now being over 25 and very good fielders and league average hitters is all of a sudden a bad thing ? So instead of a lottery ticket you'd rather have guys who you know are already average? We play in the AL in a stadium where routine flyballs regularly end up in the 2nd row. Light hitting defensive OF's shouldn't be a target unless they are 4th OF's. I'd hope that in 2 or so years the AJ Pollacks and Para's of the world won't be good enough to start on our team. At least that's the hope if you are trading 1 of the 5 best Sp's in baseball to start over and rebuild. Owings, Davidson, Drury, Lamb and Trahan are their 5 best hitting prospects, I'd try to get 3 of them

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 04:23 PM) This would be about the absolute worst, worst, worst thing you could do if you are going to trade Chris Sale. You need to load up on prospects if you trade him. Adam Dunn is a free agent after this year and John Danks is still a good pitcher who was in his first year back from injury. What are you going to spend that money on anyways? Maybe you can do that with Santiago or Quintana and get away with it, but it's just not smart to do with Sale. Agreed. Why devalue your most valuable asset? Wait to see if the likes of Dunn and Danks get off to a good 1st 1/2 and tehn try to move them. Or just hold on to Danks as $14M seems to be about the price of an average SP nowadays and I think Danks can be more than that if healthy.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 04:09 PM) Since we're talking crazy trades.... I don't even want a lot prospects if Sale goes to AZ you start with Corbin ,Gregorius, Parra, Polllock .They can keep Owings. We can give up Alexei and DeAza Then AZ can throw in Matt Davidson and Justin Williams. So basically... Sale for Corbin . Sale LH ace controlled til 2019 at very reasonable price. Corbin LH same age as Sale already very good but not the great contract Sale has. Alexei for Gregorius. Alexei 32 $10M a yr for next 2 years . Gregorius turning 24 in Feb. LH hitter very good fielder limited hitting skills. De Aza turning 30 in April LH decent power bad fielder bad baserunner for Parra turns 27 in May very good fielder not much power but LH. AJ Pollock OF Matt Davidson and Justin Williams for the great contract Sale has. Pretty lopsided in the Sox favor basically getting their best starting ptcher starting SS and 2 good fielding starting OF's a 3B prospect in Davidson and a low minors OF prospect who has very high upside in Williams . Az would never do it . Maybe Bradley instead of Corbin makes it a little more even but still heavily in our favor. Why do we want Para and Pollock? What do they really do for us? They are both on the wrong side of 25 and pretty marginal players anyway.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 03:55 PM) Does Hoffman, Kolek, or anyone else the Sox might have the chance to pick in the Draft, have "Ace" potential, anytime soon? Kolek is a high school kid so anytime soon is probably out of the question. Hoffman? Ehh who knows. From what I've seen he would probably have to improve his change up a lot, or just add a new 3rd pitch all together. His fastball and command seem to be there and his curve ball seems legit, but he doesn't use much else at this point. Rondon is the guy you want if you're looking for immediate big impact. Unfortunately he's more than likely not falling to 3rd.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 03:31 PM) Is this an ode to our FO's use of sabermetrics or their love for power arms? http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/whit...pe-paulino.html "Sabermetric stats like FIP (3.54) and xFIP (3.93) suggest that from 2010-12, Paulino was vastly better than his ERA would indicate." Pretty much. It makes a lot of sense though. Can never have enough organizational depth at SP, and best case scenario is that he can be a productive 7th inning guy.

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 03:10 PM) It's quality, not quantity. Bradley has the potential to be as good as Sale with more years of control. Bradley could potential replace Sale as frontline SP in two years, then you build off of him as insurance for the possibility that won't happen. The way the Sox "win" a trade would be Bradley becoming an ace, Davidson and Owings/Gregorius manning 3B and SS, respectively, and Skaggs or any other pitchers become steady rotation guys. If you can fill 3-4 spots with positive value guys to overtake the value of one player, you can comfortable trade Sale. See my post above. Who knows, maybe I'm underestimating him, but I can't see Towers entertaining that kind of offer. I hope you're right, but I have a feeling that we are keeping Sale if that's the type of package Hahn is holding out for. Not necessarily a bad thing of course....

Have you guys seen Bradley pitch? There is legitimate reason to believe he could be at least comparable to Sale as soon as next year. The kid is a stud. If we get him in a package the rest of the pieces are going to significantly diminish from what it would be if he wasn't involved. If you're trading Sale you are officially in full blown rebuild mode. So why lessen the amount and quality of prospects for 1 SP? Might as well just keep Sale and keep trying to build around him if you're going to do that. Not to mention that Skaggs is no joke and not such a bad "fall back" plan. Obviously I have no idea what the talks are like (if there even are any), but I'd have to imagine Towers is going to be seriously stubborn about trading Bradley + a significant package for Sale.

Personally if I'm Hahn I'm telling Towers he can keep Bradley and that I want as many pieces as possible. I feel like the package diminishes a good deal if Bradley is involved. Skaggs Chafin Owings Davidson Trahan Eaton Spruill Lamb Drury Pick your favorite 6 and tell them that's the package for Sale.

QUOTE (Jake @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 02:16 PM) Keep in mind with Dom Brown: this dude is literally a worse defensive LF than Dayan Viciedo. Just think about that. I'm not saying you definitely don't get him, but you're looking at a team with a bunch of corner OF. His inability to hit lefties and take a walk concerns me as well. What his ceiling actually is needs to be discussed before trading a guy like Q for him. I would do my best to see if Amaro is dumb enough to trade Brown for something like Santiago, Jones, and De Aza. Unlikely, but that would be best case scenario for us.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 01:53 PM) I don't trade a starter. Our pitching depth is grossly overrated. How? Q, Santiago, Danks, Johnson, Renzio, Beck isn't enough to fill out a well above average 2-5? Trading Sale would also most likely result in acquiring at least 1 more good SP prospect. And then there is the 3rd pick.... Like I said, I'd personally rather trade Q, but offers have to be at least listened to on Sale. There isn't enough talent on this team to turn down 3 or 4 really good prospects.

Danks just doesn't seem likely. Even if someone would trade for him we would be selling at his lowest value. Hold onto him and hope he pitches well the 1st 1/2 of the season. Even if he can keep his ERA around 3.7-3.9 he will still seem like value and shouldn't be a problem to trade. If I'm Hahn I'm asking for a king's ransom for Q and hoping someone delivers. I like Q, but I do think he's replaceable and he is our best shot at getting 2 good, young position players that can help in the near future.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 01:27 PM) The Bravess eh?? Not sure how they make sense since their minor league isn't that great Gotta be talking Justin Upton or Heyward, one of their current starting pitchers, Avilon or Venters, Bethancourt, and Lucas.....or make it some crazy 3 team deal. Simmons, Tommy La Stella and Teheran is a pretty good start but I would definitely need another potential power bat in the OF or 3B back as well. They do have plenty of arms so a 3 team deal does make sense where they send someone like Sims or Graham to a 3rd team and we get a top level hitting prospect back.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 01:05 PM) Right and AZ needs to understand that Bradley is in the trade trade talks or it " happy holidays", click. Skaggs, Chafin, Davidson, Owings, and Trahan would make me think long and hard.... I've softened my stance on trading Sale a little bit. Its still going to take a ton, but it almost has to be considered. Its a chance to change the entire landscape of the franchise in a positive way. I love Sale as much as the next guy, but this franchise has a serious void of talent and he represents a way to change that. I will be honest that its hard to find organizations that fit the bill as far as trade partners for Sale go. Arizona, Yankees, Seattle, and ????

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 10:48 PM) I wonder if the Yankees would be interested in John Danks? We can drop our highest paid pitcher, get an every day CF for at least one season, with a hope he would sign an extension, if not the team can flip him mid season OR claim a supplemental draft pick next year. I agree that Danks could be a potential fit for the Yankees, but forget the 30 year old soon to be free agent. Mason Williams and Garry Sanchez are the names Hahn should be looking at. Both could be in the majors next year (2015) and are potential impact bats. I doubt either are in the Yankees plans for the next 2 or 3 years so they could be viewed as expendable. I could also see them liking Kepp. Plays both 2B and 3B and has a better track record than the likes of Brendan Ryan and Kelly Johnson. Danks + Kepp + Jones would be a nice package to offer the Yankees, although I'm not sure it would get us both Sanchez and Williams.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 02:58 PM) http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/yank...iro-suzuki.html "Open to trading" and in trade talks are 2 different things. He has no power and can't even get on base at this point. He's a $6 million dollar defensive replacement and pinch runner at this point in his career. Unless the Yankees pretty much for him to go who would want him?

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 02:36 PM) The best move for the Yankees is to move Ichiro. Their best starting option is Gardner-Ellsbury-Beltran. Lefty, lefty, switch. I was reading Philadelphia, if memory serves, was interested in bring him in. That way they can rotate DH and spelling outfielders between Wells and Soriano. No one wants Ichiro at this point. Philly already signed Byrd anyway, they have no interest in Ichiro. I can easily see them keeping Gardner and patch working a rotation with 1 year deals. Bedard, Colon, Oswalt, Halladay, ect....