VAfan

Last year, the White Sox had the worst offense in the AL by far, with 622 runs scored. (Next lowest was Seattle with 656 runs.) Hard to believe a team with that pathetic of an offense could win 76 games. The Sox were also last in HR at 136. I believe they were SO bad, that it turned the Cell from a plus HR field into a negative one! Here's what it looked like last year. 1B Abreu 30 2B Sanchez/Johnson 5 SS Ramirez 10 3B Gillaspie/Beckham/Saladino/Olt 16 DH LaRoche 12 LF Melky 12 CF Eaton 14 RF Garcia 13 C Flowers/Soto 18 Bench - Shuck/Thompson/Bonafacio/Brantly 5 Total 136 This year I expect. 1B Abreu 35. Should be better with protection behind him. 2B Lawrie 18. Could go higher if he stays healthy. SS Rollins/Saladino 16. Jimmy has hit more than that himself two years ago. 3B Frazier 35. This was his number last year, when he tailed off in the second half. DH LaRoche/Garcia 20. Could go higher if LaRoche can stay healthy. LF Melky 15. Should show some return to form after a horrid start to 2015. CF Jackson 9. What he hit last year. RF Eaton 14. What he hit last year. Bench. Shuck 0. What he hit last year. Total 182 That would put the Sox 6th in the AL based on last year's numbers. (I wanted to put in a nice table, but I can't figure out how to do it here.)

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Mar 7, 2016 -> 10:29 AM) This is what I would figure the lineups to be: vs RHP Eaton 9 Melky 7 Abreu DH Frazier 5 Laroche DH Lawrie 4 Avila 2 Rollins 6 Jackson 8 Bench: Navarro, Avi, Saladino, Schuck vs LHP Eaton 9 Lawrie 4 Abreu 3 Frazier 5 Avi DH Navarro 2 Melky 7 Rollins 6 Jackson 8 Bench: Avila, Laroche, Saladino, Shuck Shuck gets some starts vs LHP instead of Melky, Saladino gets some starts vs LHP instead of Rollins Catchers also probably aren't strictly platooned. Navaro probably gets closer to half of the starts but Sox won't face anywhere near half LHP. Shuck is going to get AB against righties, with Jackson sitting down. Jackson's splits are not so good against RH, and Shuck didn't hit lefties well last year. It won't be a platoon, but that's who Shuck will replace, with Eaton moving to CF for those games.

Here's how I see it. Jackson starting in CF, with Eaton and Melky on the corners most of the time. Avi is the right handed platoon for LaRoche. And occasional OF starter. JB Shuck plays about the same number of games as last year, giving Jackson time off against right handers. If LaRoche doesn't bounce back, the Sox need to make another deal. Not great, but passable. Just need everyone to come out strong, unlike last year when the offense was putrid.

G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB 148 601 553 66 142 17 2 13 59 7 7 36 141 .257 .309 .365 .675 89 202 13 8 0 4 3 136 527 491 56 131 25 3 9 48 17 10 29 126 .267 .311 .385 .696 95 189 5 3 3 1 0 Guess who these lines belong to for 2015? Not a huge difference on offense, especially if one is going down and the other up -- which is possible but by no means certain. But defense is another matter entirely.

I get the point about RF being a great place to target an upgrade, but all the ink devoted to it has been absurd. The Sox were worse at 3B, 2B, and DH last year, and offensively were also worse at SS and C. Plus, LF seriously underachieved, as did quite a few of the pitchers.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Feb 24, 2016 -> 08:47 PM) There are $10M or so reasons that most are talking about replacing Avi and not Laroche. Laroche's contract is going to earn him another shot over Avi, like it or not. And while he has little to no value, other teams will take Avi and his contract. No one wants Laroche and his hefty salary. Except the issue is not so much replacing LaRoche, given that the Sox aren't eager to eat that much contract (if they did, then John Danks could be the odd one out in the Latos, Johnson, Danks "competition"), but finding the RH platoon for him. Once Thompson was traded, that solution went west. Jerry Sands? Doesn't seem viable to me. Avi? Only if a full time OF is had. So why not a guy like Ryan Raburn? Not too expensive. Much more reliable than someone like Sands. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox make this kind of move.

Not sure anyone has really grappled with my point. That it's like 100-1 in ink about RF versus discussions about the rest of the team. A whole lot of White Sox players underperformed last year, not just Avi Garcia. Adam LaRoche not only sank the team offensively, he tied up payroll that could have been spent this year on a contract like Dexter Fowler's. Melky Cabrera was SO bad early, and even though he got hot in the middle, ended up with a very down year. Not to mention that his splits, which used to be pretty equal from both side of the plate, dropped off a cliff against left handers. When you add in that LaRoche was a zero against lefties, and Abreu had a bad year against them, it made the Sox particularly weak against southpaws. Melky also helped sour the White Sox brass on free agent contracts, I believe. Sanchez, Saladino, Beckham, Bonafacio, Olt, Gillaspie, Ramirez, Flowers. These are all guys who got plenty of ABs (not so much Bonafacio) and were TERRIBLE offensively. On the pitching side, Shark was awful, Danks was his usual pretty-bad self and without the offensive support had a bad W-L record. Robertson had 5 losses and plenty of blown saves. None of the main bullpen guys had an ERA under 3.41. Even Chris Sale had an ERA of 3.41. So the great pitching we are supposed to have never really materialized. I guess I'm just tired of reading AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI, AVI all the time, when he's only 1 player. If the team around him performed up to expectations, the Sox could absolutely win with Avi in RF.

For months now this site and others in Sox fandom have obsessed about replacements for Avi Garcia. I believe the obsession was much larger than discussions over replacements for Sanchez at 2B, or whatever mystery man was going to play 3B. The non-tendering of both Tyler Flowers and Alexei Ramirez seemed to catch many by surprise. There was very little discussion of deepening the starting rotation before Mat Latos was plucked off the free agent pile. And how much has been written about Adam LaRoche's pathetic 2015?? Yet, let's just take one offensive statistic to see how things shook out in 2015. OPS+ Catcher - Tyler Flowers 82 Second base - Carlos Sanchez 66 Third base - Tyler Saladino 68 Shortstop - Alexei Ramirez 79 Designated hitter - Adam LaRoche 78 That's 5 positions that didn't get nearly the attention that RF has, and yet Avisail Garcia put up the 4th best OPS+ number on the 2015 team. Right field - Avisail Garcia 89 Only Melky Cabrera 97, Adam Eaton 122, and Jose Abreu 135 were better. And I think everyone would agree that Cabrera seriously underperformed. Now I understand there is also the sub-par defensive aspect to Garcia's game, so to focus solely on OPS+ is not to grasp the gravity of his weakness. It just seems to me that it's a horse that has been beaten to death a thousand times more than it should have been. Especially since Garcia has at least some possibility of improving. I mean, in limited action, he put up a 105 OPS+ in 2014, and a 109 in 2013. So who's to say there is no possibility of him returning to better offensive numbers. His first half of 2015 scored a 97, which is the same as Melky's numbers for the whole season. While all this ink -- page after page about Upton, Cespedes, Gordon, Eithier, Fowler, et al -- was spilled on finding a replacement for Avi, Rick Hahn went about plugging the holes at most of the positions that should have been HIGHER PRIORITIES. Catcher -- Flowers out, and two new catchers in. Second base -- Brett Lawrie Third base -- Todd Frazier Shortstop -- Jimmy Rollins The catching position has to be better, even if Avila had a bad year last year. Second base is worlds better offensively. Third base is a MASSIVE improvement. Shortstop could be better, even if only marginally. Where I think the Sox have dropped the ball as much as they have with Avi is at DH. We know that LaRoche was horrible last year, especially against lefties. And I also know many hoped the replacement outfielder would shift Avi into a DH platoon with LaRoche. But why don't the Sox sign someone like Ryan Raburn? He absolutely murdered lefties last year. Why not the clamoring for him to be added? Don't get me wrong. I would have liked the Sox to replace Avi in RF as much as anyone. I thought Cespedes would have made the biggest impact since he's really helped his teams win, and been proven in the AL. But if for whatever reason (unjustified or not) you decide to try to patch up the team on the cheap, then I'm not sure the Sox have totally blown it with their approach. If they added a guy like Raburn for a couple million, they would stand a much better chance of fielding a capable DH duo, assuming LaRoche will stand a better chance of rebounding if he only has to face right handers. And that would leave them with Avi Garcia in RF, exposed for all to see and ridicule. Or to hope for some level of performance that wouldn't sink the team if all the other areas were performing at levels they were supposed to meet. In other words, it's NOT all about Right Field for the 2016 White Sox.

The known PEDs users are just NOT getting in, which is as it should be. If you rewarded them, what message would you be sending kids?

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 19, 2015 -> 12:08 PM) On this FA OF matter, I've agreed with every word you've said. I too would definitely prefer Upton, but wouldn't mind Cespedes. My reason for Upton is because he is 2 years younger, gets on base more than Cespedes, has the same amount of pop (if not more), and Upton can steal some bases. Plus, I think Upton would compliment Frazier & Abreu more than Cespedes would. I'd rather have 2 guys get on base more in Abreu and Upton (350 OBP) than 2 guys in Frazier and Cespedes (low 300 OBP). I prefer Cespedes, for several reasons. 1. He's made a much bigger difference for the teams he's been on. It's been pointed out elsewhere, but Oakland tanked offensively after they traded Cespedes and barely made the one-game playoff after leading the AL West most of the season. 2. When he joined the Mets, they became offensive juggernauts in the second half, and blew away the Nats. 3. As a fellow Cuban, I think he and Abreu would have a friendly competition for best hitter on the team, spurring each on to higher heights. 4. He doesn't cost a draft pick, which is important. 5. His age likely lets the Sox get him for fewer years, which lowers their risk. 6. He's proven he can hit in the AL. Upton to me is only a numbers guy who hasn't helped most of the teams he's been on win. Cespedes seems like a much bigger force as a player on his teams.

QUOTE (Alexeihyeess @ Dec 15, 2015 -> 03:34 PM) You don't even need WAR to know Cespedes is the better player. The A's were a force with Cespedes and the instant he left they immediately turned into a mediocre team. Then he went to Detroit (his stay with Boston was meaningless) where he fueled their torrid start and kept them in playoff contention right up until they traded him. Then Cespedes pushed the Mets over the Nationals and led that team to the league lead in 2nd half offense. Cespedes = wins. This is EXACTLY why I like Cespedes. It's not always about the stats.

I like Cespedes more. He seems like much more of a gamer to me. When he joined the Mets in a pennant chase, he took off. I doubt Avi is going to Charlotte. He could platoon with LaRoche now that Thompson is gone. Ramirez for another year makes sense, but he may be looking for 2.

I voted Cespedes, for 3 reasons. 1. Might be able to develop some competition for best Cuban on the team between him and Abreu. 2. Don't want to surrender the draft pick. 3. I think Cespedes could be had on a shorter deal.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 03:11 PM) My reaction was what is next? I am no prospect lover, but they have to keep going if they are trying to win. They cannot stop here, or they lose the trade. If they do and fall short, whether you love Trayce, Micah, and Montas, hate them or are indifferent, it makes no sense to trade them for a guy who will be around 2 years, if you are going to be a .500 or so team. You need to do whatever you can to get into the playoffs. Now it is about spending some money. Spend it JR. Get the guy that will take you over the top, and melt the doom and gloomers like the Wicked Witch of the West. Then it is a huge White Sox win. I'll join the chorus of posters who have agreed with this comment. If the team goes into the season carrying Garcia, Saladino/Sanchez, and LaRoche as everyday players, we aren't going to be good enough. Need that FA outfielder to make this work well, and then Avi could possibly be the platoon bat to pair with LaRoche (with an OPS of .760 last year against lefties). With Danks and LaRoche gone in 2017, that should cover the cost of the corner outfielder.

Whether you put Montas in the pen, or keep trying to develop him as a reliever, the Sox should trade David Robertson if they can get something back for him and not have to eat any of his contract. There are no indications that the Sox are going to do enough to contend in 2016, which makes Robertson almost worse than useless. He is blocking other pitchers from developing into closers, which will then increase their value to the team. Jones is the obvious choice if Montas is kept in the minors to develop command as a starter. Plus, the Sox could really use the Robertson contract money to spend elsewhere.

I've called for this for a while. Trading Robertson allows Montas to step into a closer role and build his value. Jones can be the bridge if necessary, and that would also build his value. It also saves money better spent elsewhere.

Surprised by this move. Alexei was quite HORRIBLE through June last year, but from July through the end of the year, he hit quite well. I expected the Sox to chalk up his poor start to the mental distractions he was dealing with. If he re-signs on a cheaper deal, though, then it could be a win for the Sox. Even if it's for 2 years. Because if he bounces back, or plays like he did at the end of 2015, he'll have some real trade value. And if not, the Sox shouldn't be locked in for more than the would have been if they'd picked up the option.

First off, I'm not for trading any of our current top 3 -- Sale, Quintana, or Rodon. Too much value there. Wouldn't get a fair return. And can't really replace any of them from our minor league depth or free agency. Second, I'm starting Erik Johnson. My offseason theme is for the Sox to do everything they can to increase the value of players they have, to either keep them or move them once they are more valuable. So, I wouldn't trade Johnson this offseason, because he only has AAA value. With a year in the majors, he's likely to be worth a lot more. (If he tanks, he could be worth less, but I think his September tryout showed he's unlikely to fail like he did before.) Third, I'm not wasting money or resources on any fill-in starters. It's okay if we get some major league minimum kind of guys for insurance in case of injury. But I would save all of our money to devote to the hitting side of the team. The Sox are really not going to be ready to compete next year. 2015 proved how many of us were deluded into thinking a few shiny new free agents and one new starting pitcher was going to vaunt us into the playoff hunt. We have far too many holes on this team. So, to increase value, I'm starting Johnson. Trading Robertson. Moving Montas into the pen to become a closer. I'm also keeping LaRoche and Alexei, and hoping they rebound and can be dealt at the trade deadline. Giving Avisail one more shot (as a platoon DH player), starting Thompson in the OF, and letting Sanchez and Micah see if one of them can be a legitimate 2B.

I'm for trading Robertson to the Nationals, who are in a win-now mode and really need a closer. Drew Storen has all but ended his stay there with his late season meltdown against the Mets and self-inflicted hand injury. Papelbon choked the FRANCHISE player in the dugout at the end of the year, and is certainly going to be unloaded. By dumping Robertson, the Sox open the closer role for Jones and/or Montas, who will both increase their value as a result. And Robertson himself should bring back something of value, since he's locked up on a contract that Washington can easily handle for the next 3 years.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Nov 2, 2015 -> 09:12 AM) I don't see how the White Sox can make enough moves to make us that much better. Plus we still have Robin Ventura calling the shots. We're going to waste another year of good pitching by fielding a bad defensive team. Smh we're doomed. I agree with this. Keeping Robin has pretty much sapped any enthusiasm I would otherwise have for this team making moves to get better. What I would do instead is try to increase the value of what we have. Keep LaRoche and hope for enough of a bounce back to make him tradeable at the deadline. Same for Alexei. Give Avisail another year to see if anything is there. But play Thompson ahead of him in the outfield. (I'd use Garcia as LaRoche platoon partner.) Trade Robertson to the Nats, who really need a proven closer and have lots of prospects. Move Montas into the pen and groom him as a closer. Put Erik Johnson into the rotation for a year to increase his value. Sign the best option at 3b who doesn't cost any picks or tie you up for years. Let Micah and Sanchez duke it out at 2nd again. Keep all picks.

Here's a random idea I'm just throwing in here. What about trading David Robertson to the Washington Nationals? Not sure who we get back in return, but they have great minor league depth and need a closer in a bad way after Storen melted down and Papelbon tried to choke Bryce Harper. They wouldn't have any trouble with Robertson's contract. They might send us Papelbon back + money just to get him off their hands, and throw in some prospects.

I posted this mostly just to see what happened with that 2012 veteran club. Whether the Sox could have done a lot better trading on those assets is fair discussion. The fact is that we got next to nothing back, and that is a big reason why the Sox are currently in an untenable position. No money to invest in free agents. No position players ever come up from the minors and amount to cornerstone players. The only tradeable assets left at the moment are members of the pitching staff that the Sox have done well to build. Plus, a manager that isn't helping the team. And a front office conflicted between what Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams might want to do.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Oct 9, 2015 -> 05:59 PM) I don't get what the argument you're trying to make here because 80% of those players aren't even in the league anymore and were just fillers to a 25 man roster. You forgot to mention that we also got Montas, Wendelken, and Rondon for Peavy. Montas already in the majors and Wendelken will eventually get to the majors as a reliever. For 2 months of Gordon Beckham, we got Yency Almonte who was really good this year. For De Aza, Chalas could be a bullpen piece, Blackmar probably nothing. The other guys like Rios, Dunn, Konerko, and all the other nobodies literally had 0 trade value. I know it's hindsight, but perhaps the Sox could have done better had they traded some of these "assets" earlier. Peavy was a deadline trade. What would he have returned if traded at the end of the 2012 season? Rios was a deadline trade. But he had a great 2012. Shouldn't we have sold high and gotten something back in addition to salary relief? Dunn -- did he have any value at the end of 2012? He finished with an .801 OPS. De Aza -- didn't we hold him too long? Crain -- could he have been traded before he got hurt? Thornton -- should have been traded earlier. Viciedo -- held him too long as well. Looking at the current club, we once again skipped making moves at the trade deadline. Shark might have netted more than the draft pick. Soto? Bullpen pieces? Ramirez? What we've been left with is the draft, which is a slow way to build, and free agency, which is expensive and prone to overpayment for production. If we'd hit on the Garcia trade, the Sox' fortunes would look a lot better. Because we didn't, we have been left with only two plus offensive players -- Eaton and Abreu. And if we want to trade for more, our only option seems to be to cannibalize our pitching staff, which will rob from Peter to pay Paul. Not really a net gain.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Oct 9, 2015 -> 05:54 PM) They also got Montas from the Peavy trade. Thanks. I corrected the original post. Does anyone know if we got any compensatory picks for all the free agents who left us?

Someone posted in another thread a comment about how the Cubs were able to use the sell off of their assets to help build their current team. That got me thinking about what happened to the Sox roster of 2012, which finished 85-77, in second place in the AL Central. And that club led most of the season, until running out of gas late and watching the Tigers overtake us. Here's the hitting roster of that team. Alex Rios 157 605 93 184 37 8 25 91 26 3 92 .304 .334 .516 Alexei Ramirez 158 593 59 157 24 4 9 73 16 2 77 .265 .287 .364 Adam Dunn 151 539 87 110 19 0 41 96 105 3 222 .204 .333 .468 Paul Konerko 144 533 66 159 22 0 26 75 56 4 83 .298 .371 .486 Gordon Beckham 151 525 62 123 24 0 16 60 40 0 89 .234 .297 .371 Alejandro De Aza 131 524 81 147 29 6 9 50 47 3 109 .281 .349 .410 Dayan Viciedo 147 505 64 129 18 1 25 78 28 0 120 .255 .302 .444 A.J. Pierzynski 135 479 68 133 18 4 27 77 28 5 78 .278 .326 .501 Kevin Youkilis 80 292 47 69 8 1 15 46 37 2 69 .236 .347 .425 Dewayne Wise 45 163 20 42 7 1 5 22 9 0 40 .258 .301 .405 Orlando Hudson 51 137 10 27 3 3 2 17 12 1 24 .197 .262 .307 Tyler Flowers 52 136 19 29 6 0 7 13 12 0 56 .213 .296 .412 Brent Morel 35 113 14 20 2 0 0 5 7 0 39 .177 .225 .195 Eduardo Escobar 36 87 14 18 4 1 0 3 9 0 23 .207 .281 .276 Jordan Danks 50 67 12 15 1 0 1 4 6 0 16 .224 .288 .284 Brent Lillibridge 49 63 10 11 1 0 0 2 4 0 26 .175 .235 .190 Gone from that team? Rios -- payoff Leury Garcia. Was a salary dump. Dunn -- traded for scrap (Nolan Sanburn). Retired. Konerko -- retired. No return. Beckham -- traded for scrap. Re-signed. Will be gone again. De Aza -- traded to Baltimore for scrap (Miguel Chalas and Mark Blackmar). Viciedo -- DFA'ed. No return. A.J. -- Free agent. No return. Youklis -- Free agent. No return. Wise -- Free agent. No return. Hudson -- No return. Morel -- not in majors. No return. Escobar -- traded (along with Pedro Hernandez) for Francisco Liriano. See below for what happened to Liriano. Lillibridge traded with Zack Stewart for Youklis. Danks -- free agent. No return. In short, the White Sox got back ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from all these players. If they got a compensatory draft pick or two from the free agents who left, please add it to the comments. I'm not able to quickly look that up. On the pitching side the Sox did a little better. But not much better. Here's the staff ranked by innings pitched. Jake Peavy 32 32 11 12 .478 3.37 0 219.0 191 82 88 27 49 194 Chris Sale 31 30 17 8 .680 3.05 0 192.0 167 65 66 19 51 192 Gavin Floyd 29 29 12 11 .522 4.29 0 168.0 166 80 84 22 63 144 Jose Quintana 25 22 6 6 .500 3.76 0 136.1 142 57 62 14 42 81 Philip Humber 26 16 5 5 .500 6.44 0 102.0 113 73 74 23 44 85 Nate Jones 65 0 8 0 1.000 2.39 0 71.2 67 19 19 4 32 65 Hector Santiago 42 5 4 1 .800 3.33 4 70.1 54 26 26 10 40 79 Matt Thornton 74 0 4 10 .286 3.46 3 65.0 63 25 27 4 17 53 Francisco Liriano 12 11 3 2 .600 5.40 0 56.2 54 34 34 7 32 58 Addison Reed 62 0 3 2 .600 4.75 29 55.0 57 29 30 6 18 54 John Danks 9 9 3 4 .429 5.70 0 53.2 57 34 35 7 23 30 Dylan Axelrod 14 7 2 2 .500 5.47 0 51.0 56 31 32 8 21 40 Jesse Crain 51 0 2 3 .400 2.44 0 48.0 29 13 14 5 23 60 Brett Myers 35 0 3 4 .429 3.12 0 34.2 30 12 13 4 9 21 Zach Stewart 18 1 1 2 .333 6.00 0 30.0 41 20 26 10 4 16 Will Ohman 32 0 0 2 .000 6.41 0 26.2 23 19 19 6 5 13 Brian Omogrosso 17 0 0 0 .000 2.57 0 21.0 20 6 6 3 9 18 Leyson Septimo 21 0 0 2 .000 5.02 0 14.1 8 8 8 3 6 14 Donnie Veal 24 0 0 0 .000 1.38 1 13.0 5 2 2 0 4 19 What did we get for these guys? Jake Peavy -- netted Avi Garcia (and Frankie Montas). This should have been a cornerstone young controlled player. But he's looking like a bust, which REALLY hurts. Floyd. Free agent. No return. Humber. Pitched perfect game, but was waived in the same year. Nothing. Santiago. Traded for Adam Eaton. This is the ONLY player of value the White Sox got from their 2012 roster. Thornton. Traded to Boston for Brandon Jacobs, but was traded to Arizona as part of the Eaton trade before he played for the Sox. Liriano. Free agent. No return. Reed. Traded for Matt Davidson, who's been a minor league bust. No return so far. Crain. Traded to the Rays for what turned into Sean Bierman and Ben Klein. In other words. Nothing. Myers. Free agent. No return. Stewart. Part of deal (with Brett Lillibridge) for Kevin Youklis, who left after 2012. No long term return. Ohman. Free agent. Hasn't pitched in majors since. Omogrosso. Released. Septimo. Released. Veal. DFA'ed. So there you have it. For all the guys on our last winning ballclub that are no longer with us (14 hitters and 14 pitchers), the White Sox front office got back: Adam Eaton Avisail Garcia Leury Garcia (Edit -- as has been pointed out Frankie Montas came in the Peavy trade) No one else has even played for the Sox in the majors (other than the short term rentals Kevin Youklis and Francisco Liriano we got in 2012). I think this has to be exhibit #1 as to why the Sox have been struggling in their rebuild process.