KMule2545

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 01:39 PM) And Theo didn't have anywhere close to the tradeable assets that Hahn and Williams have. If the Sox trade Sale, Q, Eaton and Jones, that is as big a dispersal of highly productive players in their prime as I've ever seen. Plus they have some of the short term guys like Frazier, D Rob and Melky, which is about all that most reubilders have to sell Now they can't flood the market with them and some are better traded in July. It didn't take Theo 5 years to build a winner, and if Hahn and Williams have any kind of competence, it shouldn't take them that long either. And, of course, the farm needs to become productive (drafting, international signings, development) or this is all a one-shot deal. Exactly. With the assets we'd be able to get in return, plus Anderson, Collins, Rodon, Fulmer, Burdi, ect., we'd be able to field an actual legitimate club within 1-3 years. No more below average players like Leury Garcia, JB Shuck, ect.,coming up when someone gets hurt. Actually talented players who could contribute to a winning team is what we need. We "might've be able to win" the past 7 years. Look how that turned out. I'm a big believer in prospects having relationships with the guys they play alongside playing a big part in winning. Look at how much Rizzo and Bryant love each other. Or Baez and Russell. The only way to gain such a culture and foster those relationships is through time and winning together on squads in the minors.

QUOTE (shipps @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 12:56 PM) Thankfully it probably wont be the way that they approach this. It is narrow minded to think that its the ONLY effective way to do a rebuild. It is one way to do it, yes, but not the only way and I wish people would get out of that mindset. I personally would rather the Sox find their own path to success than thinking that they are capable of replicating Theo Epstein. Know your limitations and build upon your strengths management. It's not about replicating Theo. It's about doing it the right way. Say we trade Sale, Frazier, Melky, and Robertson. Are those assets we get + 4 years of Q, Eaton, and Jones really going to allow us to compete annually for the next 10? I really doubt it. Besides Jones' injury history, Eaton's recklessness and immaturity, and Eaton and Q's skill sets that arguably won't age well...why would you want to see a half-assed rebuild? Dump everything completely, shed tons and tons of cash for the 2018 free agent market, and let our young assets actually grow for once in the minors. If we do the half rebuild you're calling for, Collins among other prospects will be in the Majors in 2017, based on need and necessity, not based on what's good for the player and organization's development. Aren't you sick of seeing that? I am.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 12:23 PM) Who knows. Maybe Sale goes to the Astros and Dodgers get desperate for Q. Fingers crossed. If we were able to get Urias in a Q deal, that's already a wash for us. + whatever else we were able to grab.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 12:13 PM) Would you guys prefer Bregman or Springer as the headliner? Bregman for the simple fact of more service time. It wouldn't matter as much if we were the Yankees or Cubs or Dodgers but we aren't. Abreu's 68 million is still the largest comtract in Sox history.

QUOTE (Carpe Diem @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 12:07 PM) agreed, but that is not to say there aren't other prospects that the White Sox covet. He was just the name that was thrown out to me, and I can't say I was surprised by it lol It doesn't surprise me at all. It's just sad, the Sox continually trying to acquire the same type of players who have failed time and time again under the KW regime. A no-glove 2B who slashed .254/.318/.469 at AA, regardless of the 27 HR and 88 RBI. Geez. Take someone who is further away like Lux over Calhoun. I'd rather see what Saladino, Sanchez, or Lawrie could do.

QUOTE (Carpe Diem @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) No problem, apparently any prospect on the Dodgers is available. So the "Urias is off limits" fuzz is just that. However, I was told that if the Dodgers include Urias they are not keen on including Bellinger, but that was just for Sale straight up. If White Sox added more I'm sure Bellinger would be added. Only other name that was mentioned is Calhoun ( White Sox//Kenny Williams love him) Yuck

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) It won't, except for the playoffs. Pitchers have to be conditioned for it. And it would have to be league wide with all the player movement. Once they turned it more specialized, they pretty much are stuck with it unless every team is on board with change. Several years ago the Rangers were going to go with 4 man rotations in their minor leagues. I don't think it lasted very long. That was only the Rangers, though. I agree with most of your post. Pitchers not only have to be conditioned to go 2 or 3 innings, they also have to be incentivized and ego-less enough to want to throw outside of their current role. With Cecil's deal, it seems the incentives are starting to catch up a little bit.

QUOTE (fathom @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 09:55 AM) Hahn is just the best Reinsdorf

QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 23, 2016 -> 09:58 AM) I really hope this is just one of those stupid ideas that a writer would throw out because sox are looking to rebuild and would want to shed salary. One - 22 million isn't that much, even if he is terrible. two - If you are trading sale after committing to building around him for 4 years and failing, why would you lessen the return for $11 million a year, which you have shown to not be able to do jackcrap with. But, I'm not familiar with Ortiz, and I think it's 100% likely that this is just a very supid throwaway line from someone not that involved or interested in actually thinking about Sale or the White Sox. "Hey I did a quick google search on white sox and found an expensive player they might not want, I bet they're trying to unload him with sale!" I agree that it could be BS and I've never heard of the writer either, but that just sounds like suchhhh a Jerry Reinsdorf-owned organization move. We should be outraged if they were to take back less in a Chris Sale trade to shed 22 million of their mistake a few months ago. Let Shields rebuild his value, as has already been mentioned in this thread.

If we somehow gained enough depth over the course of the next 6 months, I'd absolutely love to see Fulmer become a hybrid 2-4 inning type guy.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 11:36 PM) Well they've been having talks about these guys for months now. They should have a pretty good sense of what the markets are for each of them at this point. My guess is Quintana is signicantly undervalued relative to Sale. Sale is the name-brand item, Q is the generic. Similar production but one is perceived as the far superior product.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 11:53 PM) The players are fine with the changes to the compensation system. They aren't fine with the International Draft though and it's not a fair trade off. The QO affects like 8-15 guys per year that are staring at $17 million. THe International Draft keeps wages down for a huge segment of players. I understand that. Maybe I worded it wrong. Manfred wants the international draft. As a tradeoff for agreeing to an international draft, the PA is seeking changes to free agent compensation. Negotiation tactics for both sides.

QUOTE (miracleon35th @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 01:16 AM) I wonder what other teams might have interest in Frazier. Partly my speculation, part rumors that have been out there: - Yankees (as mentioned) - Red Sox (as a 1B/DH mostly) - Dodgers - Braves (as a sleeper going into their new park) - Cleveland (they were interested last offseason) - Rockies (as a 1B) - Rangers (as a 1B/DH) - Astros (as a 1B/DH) - Nationals (as a 1B)

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 08:42 PM) At first I didn't care, then I realize this means that Danish is the #6 starter? Yikes. Sox really need to address this depth issue.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 08:21 PM) I think it ends up being more of a "retooling" than a blow up/fire sale. Trade Sale for the biggest package of prospects possible and then move Melky, Frazier, and Robertson. I personally say just demolish the whole team, but the way I think the team intends to does have a shot of working. (Just using Boston as hypothetical) If we add Benentendi and Devers to Eaton, Abreu, Anderson, and Collins, come 2018 there could be a glimmer of hope. And that's not including 2 more high picks + whatever we get for Melky/Frazier/Robertson. Maybe a free agent or 2 as well once $ opens up and we are paying a lot of young guys. It would take a lot of things to go right of course, but the quick turnaround route really isn't impossible in my opinion. But again, doing it the right way and trading Q, Eaton, and Abreu and waiting an extra year or 2 makes more sense to me. This is my fear...that they get a great package for Sale and dump the other expiring guys. If they get off to a good start with whoever we acquire + keep and the new manager, JR will say "we're ready to win". We desperately need the depth that moving Sale, Q, Abreu, Eaton, and Jones would provide. Not just 1 or 2 of them. It's going to be a never-ending cycle of middling until we do it right.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 07:48 PM) If that factors into it it's only in the slightest. I think they think trading Sale is what is best for the future. If they're trading Sale to do what's best for the future, why not move Q as well and get 4 or 5 more players with 5 or 6 years of service instead of Q with just 4 (and burning another year of Q's service years by keeping him into 2017, by the way)? Not trying to argue your reasoning or information. This organization just blows my mind. I really, really believe Q will be ineffective by about age 32-33 when he loses a few miles of velocity. Maybe he pulls a Buehrle and proves me wrong, but I just can't see him putting up 5 WAR seasons in a few years.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 06:54 PM) has anyone seen any talk of what the holdup is? They were talking about having this done before the WS ended. From what I understand the Players Association wants teams in free agency to not forfeit picks for signing a free agent with compensation attached. Instead, they want the team losing said free agent to still receive a compensation draft choice, while the signing team wouldn't give one up. Manfred/the owners want to instill an International draft. It's kind of a tradeoff of one thing for the other.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 05:31 PM) I didn't hear this as a "media type" or whatever. This is what someone around the team expects to happen. No posturing or manipulation. Well I guess nothing will truly change with the White Sox until we have new ownership (and a completely rebuilt front office).

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/labor-p...baseball-112216 Ken Rosenthal reports that a labor lockout is looking possible.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 01:44 PM) He didn't hurt anybody, did he? Those uniforms were a joke. The Sox should have consulted him since he was scheduled to pitch in those awful uniforms. It's his arm. If he's totally uncomfortable it does nobody any good. Didn't he already tell somebody he didn't want to pitch in them? He's their employee, not an independent contractor.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 22, 2016 -> 03:01 PM) I was told the Sox are planning on trading Sale and keeping Q. Hopefully it's just posturing until Sale is traded and then they jump out and start dangling Q. Hopefully. Wouldn't surprise me though after seeing the Bulls and Sox be absolutely middle of the ground organizations for about 15 years. If you can get a similar but slightly lesser package for Q after trading Sale, you're goofy as hell to not do it. But I'm expecting a half-assed rebuild in typical Reinsdorf fashion. PROVE ME WRONG, JERRY!

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 21, 2016 -> 07:16 PM) So, I keep still seeing people with the suggestion that we're still only a handful of players away and that the problem is the lack of a little more FA spending. So, my answer in this thread is: I want a team where we can look at them and say "this is the strongest organization top to bottom in the AL Central". A couple weeks ago I looked through Cleveland's roster and realized that aside from short term guys like Napoli and Davis, their roster is entirely under control next year, they only have to replace Santana the year after that, and despite the deals they made this year to get Miller they still have a huge amount of talent under control. One quick list check had them with 5-6 top 100(ish) quality guys even after giving up a top 25 talent for Miller, and that's not counting the guy on suspension for steroids, not counting any of their 2016 draft picks, and not noting that they still have Michael Brantley if he could come back healthy. The Cubs are the same basic way - they promoted seemingly everyone, gave up a top 25 player for Chapman, and still have 3 top-100 ish guys. These organizations are going to be really good for the next several years. They are world series quality organizations at the big league level and they're loaded at the minor league level. Literally no one for either organization is saying "we'll make the playoffs if everything goes right". No one is saying how they'd make a 15 game improvement if they signed one player based on the magic of how they'll work together, no one is describing how no one could have predicted that the 4th and 5th best relief pitcher on the roster would get hurt. I want an organization where if someone goes down, either the next guy up from AAA is a big league quality player who needs seasoning, or you trade for the top guy on the market at that position because your system can swing it. I want an organization where you're able to go and bid for a top of the line free agent because you know you have enough young talent coming up that you can replace your all star at another position when they reach free agency. It doesn't have to last forever. That's tough, esp. when you're not drafting in the top 10. Give me a 3 year window where on paper the White Sox are the most talented team in the AL Central and they're the most talented of any of the organizations in the AL central. Give me a 3 year window where we're not just hoping to squeak into the playoffs and hope your pitchers take care of things, give me a 3 year window where the wild card is a disappointment. Exactly. Depth is the key. Not just having a handful very good/elite level players. Signing a Fowler and Cespedes still does not add the depth we desperately need. We need an entire roster of contributers + some to take injuries into account. We're about halfway there currently. Which is not nearly good enough. Tear it down completely between now and the trade dealine. Turn 6-8 assets into 20+.

Roughned Odor's brother, Roughned Odor is one of the accused. Stange family.

Hey guys, long time reader of Soxtalk (used to post as jenks45monster as a kid). My response may be a little too obvious but I'd like to see a team built around contact, obp, power potential, defense, and high-upside, good stuff, electric arms. Personality-wise, we need to get back to the classic Southside mentality that Sox teams had under Ozzie and while we had guys like AJ and Rowand. I'd say Eaton and Frazier are the only players on our current roster who exemplify the same run-thru-a-wall/never back down toughness. That being said, I hope they're both moved for future assets. Eaton is already a couple of years away from 30 and I don't see his speed based skill set aging well. Beside that he's pretty immature. We need the blue collar type of mentality 1-25. Guys who will show up to win ever single day - at any cost. Confident guys who put their head down and are ready to get to work.