KMule2545

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Nov 30, 2016 -> 10:18 PM) Jones is the only Sox reliever with real trade value; D Rob would have some, but for the contract. Putman is okay - The Sox like Petricka, but his numbers are terrible. Jennings with a 2.08 ERA and a 194 ERA+ in 2016. Might be a good time to sell high.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Nov 30, 2016 -> 05:40 PM) What does L Garcia make? Seems like a useful utility guy, esp as we've spent over $2 mil per head on Bonificio, Beckham, etc. League minimum. He has slightly over 2 years of service.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 30, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) He hasn't drafted well. But several geniuses passed on Trout and Seager and Sale. Trout and Seager were both projected as top 15 picks going into the draft, IIRC. Its not like they were slam dunk 1st overall picks that slid and tons of teams passed on. It's about adavnced scouting at that point.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 30, 2016 -> 09:05 AM) 24 teams passed on Mike freaking Trout, lets not act like this is picking Sam Bowie over Jordan in the top 3 Yeah, but then he got picked immediately after we picked. There's a big difference. It's not like Trout was a 3rd rounder and I'm saying this. We had him right in our grasp for the taking.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 30, 2016 -> 09:00 AM) Anderson was the definition of a raw athlete and started as a basketball player. You can't blame KW for Hawkins and then credit Hahn for Anderson...and you're not mentioning Thompson or Semien, either. Which teams with mid-range budgets haven't done the exact same? The Indians more than the White Sox, for example. And calling Jones prominent is pushing it. Plus KW is the one who traded Jones, Addison Reed, Hector Santiago in later rounds. Fulmer hasn't proven much, and Walker was the first pick that year but wasn't close to a Top 10-15 selection. Mitchell got hurt seriously, but obviously he didn't pan out in the end. Yeah except Anderson had the personality and wherewithal to pan. None of the raw athletes panned for KW. Why would i mention Thompson and Semien, when I stated that i was talking about top draft choices? Neither were our #1 draft pick. And honestly, neither of them is anything special at this point. Solid ball players, sure. Every team gets solid ballplayers after the 1st round. It's about hitting where you need to hit. KW never did besides Sale. The Addison Reed trade was a bad trade considering the year Reed just had. He would still be under our control. It's a wash at best.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 30, 2016 -> 08:53 AM) It also helps make you look like a genius when your draft pick is top 10. I noticed KW got no credit for drafting Sale. For a cancer and all time bad GM, it's quite the move. And I also don't understand how people can come to the conclusion that JR and KW are idiots and RH is a genius. It's back up QB syndrome. Hahn has been around with probably just as much influence for 15 or 16 years. Lol but you don't mention that he picked Jared Mitchell over Mike freaking Trout and passes on Corey Seager for Courtney Hawkins? Sure Sale is a good move. Sure. But maybe his only good draft choice in his entire time as GM. He's had more garbage moves that have hurt us long-term than good ones that allowed us to be consistent contenders - contrary to KW and JR's dreams about that. Hahn clearly has a passive personality if you've ever seen him take a media. KW has the more domineering personality. Besides, KW is his damn boss. Do you think Hahn just has been preaching "long-term, sustainable success" and doing a completely other thing because he wants to? No, because his bosses make him do so.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 30, 2016 -> 08:23 AM) I think it's impossible to separate Reinsdorf's direction/influence vs. KW's production. We know Jerry meddles, with known examples include forcing the front office to keep Ozzie and forcing them to go with the rotating DH disaster that turned out to be Kotsay. I'm sure there are plenty of other instances, especially on the people side where his unwavering loyalty has surely been an issue. And more importantly, we know for a fact he hasn't allowed for a legit rebuild in recent years when one was probably needed, which would be fine if he actually gave his front office the financial resources needed to build a winner. That being said, I think KW's ego has gotten the best of him recently. He used to make some terrific moves, picking up undervalued assets on the regular. Just seems like we're making a lot less of those moves nowadays. Seems like our scouting has fallen off quite a bit under his watch, especially the pro scouting team. While I don't necessarily blame him for the Wilder fiasco, he must wield some responsibly for allowing the system to completely rot for an unacceptable period of time. He deserves a ton of credit for that 2005 team, but I think it's officially time for a chance. Good post. While Carpe is starting to make some ridiculous threads, you can't deny KW being a cancer. It's so hard to judge Hahn's moves with the influence of KW and JR above him. I doubt he has the absolute say in any moves he's made so far, for the most part. For all the s*** Hahn gets, he has signed all of our prominent players (Sale, Q, Eaton, Jones) to cheap, team-friendly extensions and drafted much, much better (at least with the top picks) under his tenure. We got Anderson, Rodon, Fulmer, Collins. KW would have drafted some raw athletes (Hawkins, Mitchell, Walker)

Maybe this whole thing is being overblown. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/11/29/whi...l-some-context/

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 04:11 PM) Saw Dave Cameron wrote an article about the Mets should try to move Michael Conforto now (they have a huge glut of OFs). What about something like OF Michael Conforto + SS Gavin Cecchini for Nate Jones? Conforto was the #80 ranked prospect before his 1st major league season. He has now played a full season worth of games in the majors, and despite a low average (.238), he has a fine walk rate of 10%, and an average K% of 23%, to go along with 21 HR, above average defense, 109 wRC+ and a 3.4 WAR. Gavin Cecchini is a SS likely to end up at 2B, and I would guess would come in around the top 50 in prospect lists. Was ranked #87 last year before hitting .325 in 117 AAA games this season, walking 10% of the time and only striking out a fantastic 11%. He also hits 8 HR, should play above average defense at 2B and has a strong arm. Conforto will turn 24 before the year starts, Cecchini turns 23 in a month. Both are obviously major league ready, and both former 1st RD picks (10th and 12th respectively). I would be down. I'm a big Nimmo fan too.

QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 03:29 PM) This x100. Continue to say that Sales cost savings dry up when talking about removing all immediate cheap talent these teams have to play with. Return is almost certainly going to see mix of near and far talent as nobody can take that hit. Big difference between paying prospects minor league salary or league minimum, along with the risk that comes along with that/paying a superstar like Sale verrrrry cheap for his production/overpaying a free agent like Cespedes. There is a massive amount of risk that comes with prospects - regardless of how cheaply paid they are. Premiums are paid for proven production, especially relatively cheap superstar-level proven production. The surplus value and dry free agent and trade markets will all but ensure the Sox get almost any prospect they want as a headliner. Rick Hahn and his law degree know this. Would you rather owe a Rich Hill 3/45 and get an injury-riddled old man over the next few years or give up (albeit dirt cheap) unproven talent for a cheaply paid YOUNG superstar like Sale? If I run a team and am ready to compete and have most of the rest of my roster filled out for the most part, option 2 sounds much more appealing.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 02:46 PM) They should at least be competitive and fun to watch from a fans standpoint. We haven't even had that. That's what not having depth, young talent, and a cohesive FO/ownership group will do to ya. Not to mention no plan. Or a half-assed plan.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 02:40 PM) Are you sure? Suppose the Cubbies go eleven years now and only manage to make it to the playoffs once, with only playoff win to show for it. What do you think the fans would say then? With their youth, depth, talent, cohesive front office/ownership, the likelihood of that is almost 0.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 02:34 PM) Probably true. Conversely, if Sale went to the Cubs and it didn't result in another title, but the elite talent acquired by the Sox led them to a title, then the Cubs fans wouldn't be ok with that either. They would rip Theo & Co. in every way imaginable. It cuts both ways. Great point. I think the likelihood of us being ripped off by Theo/destroyed by everyone for trading Sale and losing the trade to the Cubs is way more likely under Reinsdorf/KW/Hahn leadership than Theo becoming the joke, though. Fans have almost 0 trust in our FO doing anything right at this point in time.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 01:57 PM) I don't get this argument at all. The Cubs success doesn't hurt the Sox. The Sox inability to put a winning product on the field hurts the Sox. It's one thing to tell the Cubs that they will have to pay a premium for Sale. But by not agreeing to work with the Cubs period, the Sox are cutting off their nose to spite their face. If the Cubs and Sox had equal products, the Cubs would still rule Chicago. That's just the way it is and probably always will be. Give the Cubs few more rings in the next few years with a star player we drafted and developed - see ya Chicago when the lease expires. We've already been washed from the memories of media and fans alike after 1 Cubs rings. Imagine 2 or 3 more with our guy Sale leading the charge.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 01:13 AM) The Sox deserve all the mocking. If they don't acquire the right young players, this rebuild may be mocked as well. I can't believe the Sox don't a.) hire the best proven manager possible and b.) go the free agent route to fill holes with GOOD players. If we had an excellent manager and just a few more good players, we'd be a perennial playoff team. Now we have to have this manager 3-4 years during the rebuild. My hope is someday we hire a difference maker manager like Maddon or Francona. Go ahead, sign a few GOOD free agents. You'd still have the JB Shucks and Leury Garcias of the world coming up when a Cespedes or Fowler or whoever gets hurt. Signing a few good free agents does nothing to address our dire situation of a lack of legitimate depth that could contribute.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 10:22 AM) This. Avi is what he is and I don't think Coats is anything more than a 4th outfielder. I'd like to give Liriano a shot, but there definitely would have been a spot for Thames as well. While I agree Avi most likely is what he is, it's hard for me to completely write off a 25 year old with his power-potential, greatly improved hit speed and launch angles in 2016, and his first year using a much-needed revamped swing. I want to see one more year before I'm ready to move on from him. I really want to see what Rymer can do as well. He's never really had a true chance due to injuries. Someone said the other day that Coats seems like a AAAA type player, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Nov 29, 2016 -> 10:35 AM) I don't think Quintana and Frazier nets the White Sox Joc, Urias, Bellinger and Barnes. That is a massive return. I might expect a little more than that, TBH. Besides the sexy name and dominating stuff, Q is arguably as valuable as Sale - with an extra year of control to boot. Plus you're adding in a year Frazier.

One-time White Sox slugger prospect Chris Carter has been non-tendered by the Brewers. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/11/brew...p;post-id=78374

Shoot. I was really hoping an international draft would get done so that teams besides the Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees, Dodgers, and Rangers would be able to get top Latin talent anually. Maybe they'll deepen bonus pools or increase penalties for going over international allotment. It wasn't worth a lockout, though.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Nov 28, 2016 -> 06:34 PM) Obama Chance the Rapper ...um...there's...that one guy That's about it for famous fans. Can't forget Jerry Springer

Here's an article by Fox Sports chronicling how the CBA expiring could affect the White Sox rebuilding plans.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Nov 28, 2016 -> 05:31 PM) Agreed. Plus...what does the CBA have to do with a bunch of owners and GMs gathering in some warm weather location to talk shop and tip a few back? Makes zero sense.... If there's a lockout nothing (free agent signings, trades, waiver claims, Rule 5 draft, etc.) is allowed to happen, so meetings would be pointless for the time being. BTW, meetings are scheduled for Maryland this year.

QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 28, 2016 -> 03:31 PM) I guess I would just say that rebuilding seasons are the perfect time to develop players at the major league level that may not be perfect in their position. Swihart was injured sliding into bases, he'd still do that as a catcher. If swihart is on the team and we don't try him out as a catcher I'll be disappointed. I feel like sox work with Flowers defensively shows they have ability to hone them in to some degree at least with calling games and framing. Just FYI. Obviously if he stayed as a LF something like this could happen again. I'm just saying catchers with such leg injuries generally don't do well long-term.

QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 28, 2016 -> 03:16 PM) If you are rebuilding why would you care about developing Swihart as catcher? If he does turn better as a defensive catcher you have a good offensive catcher cost controlled for 4 more years, if he doesn't pan out at catcher you try him as an OF/DH if his bat warrants it. Firstly, and most importantly, catcher is a defensive-first position. We need someone back there who is going to help our pitchers, not hurt them. You wanna try him behind the plate at AAA, go ahead. I have no problems with that. But he should not be acquired to be plugged in at catcher on the Major League roster. Second, his injury history would be scary for someone behind the plate. Most recent injury was a leg, if I'm not mistaken.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 28, 2016 -> 03:08 PM) So you don't want them to be a playoff team until the Rodon clock is down to 2 years? That's pretty silly. If they trade all these guys for players who are good, why waste 3 years to maybe be good for 3 or 4 years? If the Sox were smart, they'd let Rodon bust out and move him for a mega package in a year or 2, as he'll likely never be signed long-term for big money under current ownership.