Has anyone seen any plausible suggestions yet to get the White Sox out of this miasma?

 

Something has to happen...a final tipping or inflection point. Things can't continue like this much longer.

 

 

This is an interesting article by Scot Gregor of the Daily Herald: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2016090...orts/160909115/

 

This offseason will definitely be interesting. It sounds to me like Ventura and most of coaches will be gone. It also sounds like some advanced and pro scouts will be on the way out. I've heard from multiple people that the rebuild is coming (Dick Allen, raBBIT, other ST holders that I know, as well as media members like Matt Spiegel). How much of a rebuild is the real question. I think Chris Sale is getting traded this offseason because he's signed for the next 3 years and it's tough to see a definite path to success that includes him in next 3 seasons. I would expect that Robertson, Cabrera, and Frazier will move as well. I think Eaton, Abreu, and Quintana are tricky though. They won't want to move everything because honestly, they aren't looking to suck for 5 years. I am convinced that some sort of "step back" is coming and I would bet that it involves moving Sale.

Edited September 8, 20169 yr by Y2JImmy0

This is an interesting article by Scot Gregor of the Daily Herald: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2016090...orts/160909115/

 

This offseason will definitely be interesting. It sounds to me like Ventura and most of coaches will be gone. It also sounds like some advanced and pro scouts will be on the way out. I've heard from multiple people that the rebuild is coming (Dick Allen, raBBIT, other ST holders that I know, as well as media members like Matt Spiegel). How much of a rebuild is the real question. I think Chris Sale is getting traded this offseason because he's signed for the next 3 years and it's tough to see a definite path to success that includes him in next 3 seasons. I would expect that Robertson, Cabrera, and Frazier will move as well. I think Eaton, Abreu, and Quintana are tricky though. They won't want to move everything because honestly, they aren't looking to suck for 5 years. I am convinced that some sort of "step back" is coming and I would bet that it involves moving Sale.

 

Ultimately, they can only keep throwing scapegoats out there for so long. Same thing with that same old storyline about finances being tight. Fine, if you're not willing to spend, you have to leverage the assets that you do have in Sale, Q and Eaton.

 

The new emerging narrative seems to be that we have to trust this new process under Hostetler....but are any of those guys other than Collins and Burdi going to arrive to take advantage of the presence of Chris Sale?

 

Selling Fulmer, Burdi and Tilson won't get them very far this offseason.

 

And the fans are desperate for the White Sox version of Kris Bryant...especially when they started envisioning all those young players who theoretically would have come over from Boston, Texas or the Dodgers. When that evaporated and we were left with Avi Garcia again...well, crickets the last two months.

Ultimately, they can only keep throwing scapegoats out there for so long. Same thing with that same old storyline about finances being tight. Fine, if you're not willing to spend, you have to leverage the assets that you do have in Sale, Q and Eaton.

 

The new emerging narrative seems to be that we have to trust this new process under Hostetler....but are any of those guys other than Collins and Burdi going to arrive to take advantage of the presence of Chris Sale?

 

Selling Fulmer, Burdi and Tilson won't get them very far this offseason.

 

And the fans are desperate for the White Sox version of Kris Bryant...especially when they started envisioning all those young players who theoretically would have come over from Boston, Texas or the Dodgers. When that evaporated and we were left with Avi Garcia again...well, crickets the last two months.

 

 

I don't think they are trading from the system though, caulfield. They are going to do what the fans want this time. I think that the Matt Davidson's and Charlie Tilson's of the world will get a ton of playing time next year while adding more to the system through trades, drafting, and the international market. I hope they sign some fee agents with the intention of flipping them though. The losing shouldn't be a problem. The Sox have been losing without the benefits of rebuilding.

If you think about it, the Duke trade has telegraphed what they will be doing this offseason.

What's the point in moving Sale if you don't move Quintana? He's only signed for one additional year.

What's the point in moving Sale if you don't move Quintana? He's only signed for one additional year.

It would be such a White Sox move to trade one, get a decent haul of prospects, but keep the other and do that annoying halfass going for it/selling thing

What's the point in moving Sale if you don't move Quintana? He's only signed for one additional year.

The point is, there is no rush to trade either. You have to be blown out of the water.

 

I hear sellers market, sellers market. We will see. The package some thought Sale would fetch from Boston wasn't nearly realistic, and baseball people claim the package for Quintana would be much less than it would be for Sale. He isn't sexy enough. The position of strength the White Sox have in trade negotiations is that they don't have to trade either. It isn't like they make a ton of money or are pending free agents. Let that work in your favor. There is no reason to do something with these guys just to make message board posters happy, because if you settle, while they will be jubilant when it happens, when the prospects of the lesser package ultimately fail, they will have known it all along.

What's the point in moving Sale if you don't move Quintana? He's only signed for one additional year.

 

 

The point is that if you don't get a s***load for Quintana there is no reason to trade him. He's locked up for the next four years and it isn't out of the question that they won't get appropriate value for him. Trading Sale makes much more sense in my opinion. The same goes for Adam Eaton. He's a 27 year old 5 WAR OF that's locked up for 5 more seasons. There's no reason to trade him unless you get blown away.

It would be such a White Sox move to trade one, get a decent haul of prospects, but keep the other and do that annoying halfass going for it/selling thing

 

 

It would be more annoying to trade them both for a "decent haul" of prospects.

The point is that if you don't get a s***load for Quintana there is no reason to trade him. He's locked up for the next four years and it isn't out of the question that they won't get appropriate value for him. Trading Sale makes much more sense in my opinion. The same goes for Adam Eaton. He's a 27 year old 5 WAR OF that's locked up for 5 more seasons. There's no reason to trade him unless you get blown away.

The same thought process applies to Sale, IMO. If either of Sale or Q are dealt this offseason, the team won't be good for several years. Why let a legit ace in Q rot on a 65 win team for years if Sale is traded? Trade both or trade neither.

The same thought process applies to Sale, IMO. If either of Sale or Q are dealt this offseason, the team won't be good for several years. Why let a legit ace in Q rot on a 65 win team for years if Sale is traded? Trade both or trade neither.

 

 

You still aren't understanding this. Trading both would be ideal. If you get a monster package for Sale and a monster package for Q then yes it makes sense. I think you are more likely to get the huge package for Sale though. They shouldn't trade Sale for a ton and then deal Q for less just because Sale is already gone. That doesn't make any sense.

It would be more annoying to trade them both for a "decent haul" of prospects.

 

So true.

You still aren't understanding this. Trading both would be ideal. If you get a monster package for Sale and a monster package for Q then yes it makes sense. I think you are more likely to get the huge package for Sale though. They shouldn't trade Sale for a ton and then deal Q for less just because Sale is already gone. That doesn't make any sense.

That's what I'm trying to say. Obviously you don't trade Q for trash just to get rid of him because Sale is out the door, but I think Q should be aggressively shopped if Sale is dealt. Obviously they shouldn't move him if they don't get a good enough offer, but trading him is an idea I think they should consider if they do in fact move Sale.

 

We'll see. It will be an interesting offseason for sure. There are so many different routes the Sox can take, hopefully they pick the right one.

That's what I'm trying to say. Obviously you don't trade Q for trash just to get rid of him because Sale is out the door, but I think Q should be aggressively shopped if Sale is dealt. Obviously they shouldn't move him if they don't get a good enough offer, but trading him is an idea I think they should consider if they do in fact move Sale.

 

We'll see. It will be an interesting offseason for sure. There are so many different routes the Sox can take, hopefully they pick the right one.

 

 

I got you. I don't think hanging onto Quintana is the worst thing in the world. He can always be traded later is my point.

It's also possible you only see one monster package now and another one next year after teams draft and make other possible moves that adds prospect depth. So yes, in some instances it makes sense to trade Sale for the huge haul and then trade Quintana a year or two later if you don't get 2 massive offers this offseason.

Edited September 8, 20169 yr by soxfan2014

It's also possible you only see one monster package now and another one next year after teams draft and make other possible moves that adds prospect depth. So yes, in some instances it makes sense to trade Sale for the huge haul and then trade Quintana a year or two later if you don't get 2 massive offers this offseason.

But according to many in this thread there is only one way to rebuild and that is to trade all major league pieces as soon as possible, but keep Rodon, Anderson, and Fulmer. The ironic thing is Rodon is only controlled one year more than Q and the same length as Eaton so might as well trade him too then.

I got you. I don't think hanging onto Quintana is the worst thing in the world. He can always be traded later is my point.

Very true. He's controlled for so long that I don't think his value will be that much lower at this time next year than it is now (barring a sudden decline in performance or an injury).

Edited September 8, 20169 yr by ChiSoxFanMike

But according to many in this thread there is only one way to rebuild and that is to trade all major league pieces as soon as possible, but keep Rodon, Anderson, and Fulmer. The ironic thing is Rodon is only controlled one year more than Q and the same length as Eaton so might as well trade him too then.

Interesting. I don't recall one poster saying that.

Because the formula with them clearly isn't working, with the Sox well on their way to a second 76/77 win season with those fellas in key positions. And the approach of signing the additional guys who don't "cost a draft pick" or "cost big money", i.e. DUMPSTER DIVE moves, well, how did that work out for us this year. A big NO THANKS to a repeat of 2015 & 2016 in 2017, thank you very much.

 

No, with the Sox YET AGAIN near the bottom of the barrel in both attendance and TV ratings, with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark like the Cell but YET AGAIN is at the bottom of the league offensively, and most importantly, a team that YET AGAIN has failed to make the postseason for the eighth year in a row, it's time for a change, folks. Time to tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Shake this disaster at its core and let's go in a new direction. Any direction, because it can't be any worse than what the organization has been mired in for far too long now.

 

TEAR IT UP!

So how do you define "time to tear it up" and "shake this disaster at its core"? You clearly do not want to wait until next July to "tear it up" so I can only assume you want to "shake this disaster at its core" this coming offseason?

 

 

I am not convinced there is a team willing or more likely able to give a major haul for Sale. I don't think Boston , New York or Dodgers will be willing to give up their core of young players now that all 3 are having solid 2nd halfs. I don't think Sale should be traded for prospects only. So I think in the end the Sox will not find a trade partner for Sale that will give them 4-5 MLB players/prospects in return.

So I think in the end the Sox will not find a trade partner for Sale that will give them 4-5 MLB players/prospects in return.

 

That's my opinion too. Sox will dump salary to make things cash flow and market it is a rebuild around guys like Davidson, Tilson, and whatever they can scrounge in return for Robertson/Melky/Frazier.

 

I am not convinced there is a team willing or more likely able to give a major haul for Sale. I don't think Boston , New York or Dodgers will be willing to give up their core of young players now that all 3 are having solid 2nd halfs. I don't think Sale should be traded for prospects only. So I think in the end the Sox will not find a trade partner for Sale that will give them 4-5 MLB players/prospects in return.

That's the problem. It's easy to say xxx is worth this, so a guy like Sale, cheaply signed for 3 years should be worth significantly more, but IMO, there is a limit a team will go to get Sale. You are going to have to decimate your system. Probably take a young player or 2 off your current roster. I used houses earlier as an example. The more expensive something is, the more exclusive the market. The teams that have what it takes to get him you could probably count on one hand. Those willing to give up what most of the public thinks is even fair value shrinks the total even more.

 

It's really no different than a player with an ARod type contract. Except change the dollars owed to talent required to acquire. Maybe someone just has to have him. Too bad LaRussa and Stewart won't be involved because you could nuke them.

That's the problem. It's easy to say xxx is worth this, so a guy like Sale, cheaply signed for 3 years should be worth significantly more, but IMO, there is a limit a team will go to get Sale. You are going to have to decimate your system. Probably take a young player or 2 off your current roster. I used houses earlier as an example. The more expensive something is, the more exclusive the market. The teams that have what it takes to get him you could probably count on one hand. Those willing to give up what most of the public thinks is even fair value shrinks the total even more.

 

It's really no different than a player with an ARod type contract. Except change the dollars owed to talent required to acquire. Maybe someone just has to have him. Too bad LaRussa and Stewart won't be involved because you could nuke them.

I agree about the ceiling. I don't think we're going to be able to do much better than the packages Cameron threw around at the deadline (Moncada/Kopech/B prospect, Benintendi/Devers/B Prospect, or Urias/Verdugo/B Prospect). Could get one big piece, but I'm doubtful that two big pieces are going to happen (ie: Moncada and Benintendi together).

I agree about the ceiling. I don't think we're going to be able to do much better than the packages Cameron threw around at the deadline (Moncada/Kopech/B prospect, Benintendi/Devers/B Prospect, or Urias/Verdugo/B Prospect). Could get one big piece, but I'm doubtful that two big pieces are going to happen (ie: Moncada and Benintendi together).

Would folks here be happy with that type of return? Is that the type of return that positively reshapes the entire outlook of the franchise?

Would folks here be happy with that type of return? Is that the type of return that positively reshapes the entire outlook of the franchise?

 

 

Nope. That doesn't really move the meter.