Reinsdorf no doubt wants to win, but it has to be done his way. And quite frankly, that's the problem. He's not willing to go above and beyond what's necessary to overcome our poor farm system in order to build a winner. Signing a bunch of B free agents and never going into the red isn't going to cut it when we get very little help from the minors. He doesn't like utilizing loopholes, such as refusing to go over slot for years in the draft, and he's generally never been a big supporter of investing large dollars into said minor league system (with a few exceptions). Worst of all, he's built an organization with no accountability. How Buddy Bell is still here after years of development failure is beyond belief. The same arguably applies to KW, Hahn, & Ventura. Combine these factors amongst others, and it's no wonder we're stuck in baseball hell right now.

 

I've never been a Reinsdorf hater, but we desperately need fresh blood at the top of this organzation.

 

I think the Tigers are the perfect example. Old owner who wants to win and will sign good players to keep them in the hunt each year. Sure, the contracts will hurt as those players get older, but if you want to win now, why not? Have the next owner/regime figure out that problem. Then you have the Sox, they sign Rollins, Latos, Albers, and Jackson lol.

Reinsdorf no doubt wants to win, but it has to be done his way. And quite frankly, that's the problem. He's not willing to go above and beyond what's necessary to overcome our poor farm system in order to build a winner. Signing a bunch of B free agents and never going into the red isn't going to cut it when we get very little help from the minors. He doesn't like utilizing loopholes, such as refusing to go over slot for years in the draft, and he's generally never been a big supporter of investing large dollars into said minor league system (with a few exceptions). Worst of all, he's built an organization with no accountability. How Buddy Bell is still here after years of development failure is beyond belief. The same arguably applies to KW, Hahn, & Ventura. Combine these factors amongst others, and it's no wonder we're stuck in baseball hell right now.

 

I've never been a Reinsdorf hater, but we desperately need fresh blood at the top of this organzation.

 

Exactly. Unfortunately, "his way" worked in 2005, so he's going to continue to operate that way.

 

Somehow, the 2nd Nightengale piece has made the situation even worse. I don't care for being lectured via proxy by the organization that I've spent I don't know how many thousands of dollars with and dedicated so much energy to.

 

Seriously? Uh, how about the money he's spent? In just the past two years, I'm counting about $150M in financial commitments to Melky, Robertson, Frazier, Shields, Samardzija, LaRoche, etc. Not to mention the long-term deals that he gave to Abreu, Eaton, Sale, Quintana, etc. That may not be George Steinbrenner money and one can question the intelligence of a couple of those moves (Shields, in particular). But it's pretty significant spending by somebody who doesn't have the Steinbrenner family's financial resources. If Reinsdorf doesn't care about winning, he wouldn't be spending like this. He could've saved a lot of money by fielding a team full of the Sox's crappy AA and AAA players.

 

Look, I realize that you're pissed about the way that the organization is being run and I don't disagree with you about that point. But the idea that winning isn't a high priority for Reinsdorf is just dumb.

 

Exactly.

You know things are bad when more than half the moderators (the die hardest of all) are pretty down, if not despondent.

 

Even if Renteria is the manager next year, a lot of fans are close to fed up with how this all has played out over the last 24 hours.

Yeah that update to the Nightengale piece is a real plate of s***.

 

"Perhaps instead of the White Sox being condemned, they should be praised for their fearlessness, making unpopular personnel decisions to the outside world but revealing their deep loyalty to everyone inside the baseball industry."

 

Holy hell what a paragraph. I can't even.

Yeah that update to the Nightengale piece is a real plate of s***.

 

"Perhaps instead of the White Sox being condemned, they should be praised for their fearlessness, making unpopular personnel decisions to the outside world but revealing their deep loyalty to everyone inside the baseball industry."

 

Holy hell what a paragraph. I can't even.

That was honestly one of the worst articles I have ever read. The ignorance and uninformed nature of the whole thing was cringeworthy. It was as if it wasn't Nightengale writing, but a delusional Sox staff member.

 

I say this as one of the most "don't blame the FO" people ever- the White Sox front office deserves every bit of blame and backlash it is receiving lately. I've had enough of this. This season has been beyond embarrassing- the LaRoche sage, the 23-10 derailment, the jersey cutting up scandal, Guaranteed Rate- oh, and missing the playoffs for the 2nd straight year with a roster that definitely has playoff potential (and 8th year overall). I don't get how anyone could defend them.

Edited September 29, 20169 yr by Jose Abreu

The roster is going to look a lot different. That is what they are saying with this stance.

The roster is going to look a lot different. That is what they are saying with this stance.

I don't get how that's possible unless you sell. There aren't many buying options out there, and other teams will be able to easily outbid us.

I don't get how that's possible unless you sell. There aren't many buying options out there, and other teams will be able to easily outbid us.

The White Sox easily have $30 million to play with, perhaps more, plus Fulmer as a trade chip. They can do as big of an overhaul as they did last season.

I don't get how that's possible unless you sell. There aren't many buying options out there, and other teams will be able to easily outbid us.

They are going to sell. But they are going to get more than just prospects back.

 

Besides, if it's the manager's fault this team isn't winning, how much would they really have to tinker with the roster? Nightengale pointed out it didn't matter who was making out the line up card the last 4 years, the Sox weren't making the playoffs, and he is correct.

 

 

I would imagine Robin would choose to return, but if he does not, at least we know they are blaming themselves for this and something will be done about it.

Edited September 29, 20169 yr by Dick Allen

The White Sox easily have $30 million to play with, perhaps more, plus Fulmer as a trade chip. They can do as big of an overhaul as they did last season.

I don't consider last year to be a real overhaul, though. It was really just Frazier, Lawrie, and scraps. The previous winter was bigger IMO

They are going to sell. But they are going to get more than just prospects back.

 

Besides, if it's the manager's fault this team isn't winning, how much would they really have to tinker with the roster? Nightengale pointed out it didn't matter who was making out the line up card the last 4 years, the Sox weren't making the playoffs, and he is correct.

 

 

I would imagine Robin would choose to return, but if he does not, at least we know they are blaming themselves for this and something will be done about it.

I don't get why you think Nightengale is correct. If the manager serves such little purpose in your eyes, then why even have one? Just have a guy make a lineup and you're good. I think MLB managers have much more of an impact on teams than you think. No, I don't think anything is ALL Robin's fault, as we've dealt with injuries and poor performance from players and whatnot, but you certainly cannot act as if he had no effect.

Unless it's all Robin's fault you cannot judge him for any faults. It's the way of the world.

I don't consider last year to be a real overhaul, though. It was really just Frazier, Lawrie, and scraps. The previous winter was bigger IMO

 

That's his point.

Seriously? Uh, how about the money he's spent? In just the past two years, I'm counting about $150M in financial commitments to Melky, Robertson, Frazier, Shields, Samardzija, LaRoche, etc. Not to mention the long-term deals that he gave to Abreu, Eaton, Sale, Quintana, etc. That may not be George Steinbrenner money and one can question the intelligence of a couple of those moves (Shields, in particular). But it's pretty significant spending by somebody who doesn't have the Steinbrenner family's financial resources. If Reinsdorf doesn't care about winning, he wouldn't be spending like this. He could've saved a lot of money by fielding a team full of the Sox's crappy AA and AAA players.

 

Look, I realize that you're pissed about the way that the organization is being run and I don't disagree with you about that point. But the idea that winning isn't a high priority for Reinsdorf is just dumb.

 

 

They are going to sell. But they are going to get more than just prospects back.

 

Besides, if it's the manager's fault this team isn't winning, how much would they really have to tinker with the roster? Nightengale pointed out it didn't matter who was making out the line up card the last 4 years, the Sox weren't making the playoffs, and he is correct.

 

 

I would imagine Robin would choose to return, but if he does not, at least we know they are blaming themselves for this and something will be done about it.

I think it got missed again so let's point out the contrast between these two posts.

 

On one hand, "Look at all the effort JR has put into winning - insert long list of players".

 

On the other hand "It didn't matter who was making out the lineup card in the last 4 years, the Sox weren't making the playoffs".

 

These 2 statements are in direct competition.

I don't get why you think Nightengale is correct. If the manager serves such little purpose in your eyes, then why even have one? Just have a guy make a lineup and you're good. I think MLB managers have much more of an impact on teams than you think. No, I don't think anything is ALL Robin's fault, as we've dealt with injuries and poor performance from players and whatnot, but you certainly cannot act as if he had no effect.

The manager serves a purpose, but if the roster is short, they don't win. Look at all of them. They have all managed horrible seasons when they didn't have the talent. If you think the Sox have had the talent the last 4 years, then yes, blame Robin but praise the talent evaluation of RH, KW and JR and Buddy Bell, all the way down.

So they deliberately misled the fans the last two years that they could compete...?

 

You can't now retroactively say the 2015 wasn't at least designed to be a playoff team but was rebuilding instead.

 

And Frazier was a pretty huge acquisition at the time...just no follow up from that point onwards.

Seriously? Uh, how about the money he's spent? In just the past two years, I'm counting about $150M in financial commitments to Melky, Robertson, Frazier, Shields, Samardzija, LaRoche, etc. Not to mention the long-term deals that he gave to Abreu, Eaton, Sale, Quintana, etc. That may not be George Steinbrenner money and one can question the intelligence of a couple of those moves (Shields, in particular). But it's pretty significant spending by somebody who doesn't have the Steinbrenner family's financial resources. If Reinsdorf doesn't care about winning, he wouldn't be spending like this. He could've saved a lot of money by fielding a team full of the Sox's crappy AA and AAA players.

 

Look, I realize that you're pissed about the way that the organization is being run and I don't disagree with you about that point. But the idea that winning isn't a high priority for Reinsdorf is just dumb.

 

We may think in this day and era that the pendulum is swinging back around to middle market teams and you don't have to spend to win, but that notion is wrong quite frankly. At least for this year. I am sure there are examples otherwise and I am cherry picking BUT:

 

 

Of the top 14 payrolls -- only the Yankees and Angels are not in the serious playoff hunt - and one could say the Yankees were in that hunt up until about 10 days ago. The teams are:

 

Dodgers, Yankees, BoSox, Tigers, Cubs, Giants, Angels, Rangers, Cardinals, Nationals, Blue Jays, Orioles, Mariners, Mets

 

 

Flip that around, the only team in the bottom 16 that is in the playoff hunt or in the playoffs? Indians.

 

You have to spend to win. It doesn't always mean that they are worth what you spend, however you need to keep spending. You can't let a Danks or Shields stop you because the problem is magnified.

 

 

Also $140mm isn't a ton nowadays. It sounds like a lot. But in the baseball world, $140mm isn't what it used to be. $100mm payroll used to be something, now only the Marlins, Brewers and Rays operate under $100mm.

 

Final thought? The difference between spending $140mm and $165mm may sound like a lot, but really isn't. Think about if we didn't go in with our plan this offseason and spend $10mm on COMPLETE JUNK (latos, rollins, etc.) Now take that $10mm + 25mm of extra funds.....

 

 

$35mm this year could have landed you Cespedes (possibly) and Ian Desmond. Again I know this is cherry picking, but a lot of us wanted those guys.

 

Imagine this team with Desmond as SS until Anderson came up. Or super subbing around LF, CF, SS with Saladino subbing around 3B, SS, 2B. Now you've created flexibility. You've got Frazier at DH sometimes. Melky at DH sometimes. You've got people getting rest more. Your lineup would be:

 

Eaton

Melky

Cespedes

Abreu

Desmond

Frazier

Anderson

Lawrie

Catcher

 

You pair that with our pitching staff? Add a bullpen arm for 3-4mm and kept Duke?

 

Hard to argue that team wouldn't be rolling into the playoffs by now. You have improved OF defense, you have improved infield defense. A ton more power, flexibility, etc. All done with an extra $25mm payroll.......... hard to argue against the power of money

 

The front office is blaming itself. They won't fire themselves, but then again, who does? Besides, maybe Robin says no, they hire Dave Martinez, call it an offseason and win the pennant next year.

If you think the Sox have had the talent the last 4 years, then yes, blame Robin but praise the talent evaluation of RH, KW and JR and Buddy Bell, all the way down.

Or, like many of us, you can criticize them all. Robin did not SINGLE-HANDEDLY swing the binary outcome of the Sox making the playoffs or not. That does not mean we should want him to keep managing the team. I don't know what's so difficult about this.

Or, like many of us, you can criticize them all. Robin did not SINGLE-HANDEDLY swing the binary outcome of the Sox making the playoffs or not. That does not mean we should want him to keep managing the team. I don't know what's so difficult about this.

And I don't see what's so difficult about not holding him the fall guy, and getting on to the problem with the roster. Apparently, they like how Robin handles the team during the time we don't see.

 

Again, if they hired Joe Maddon or anyone else when they hired Robin, and they had the exact same rosters, every single one of them would be considered an idiot right now.

The front office is blaming itself. They won't fire themselves, but then again, who does? Besides, maybe Robin says no, they hire Dave Martinez, call it an offseason and win the pennant next year.

"I did a terrible job. In response, I should do the exact same thing. It'll work better next time."

 

White Sox, pre-2016.

 

Why are people like me annoyed? Because we're expecting the exact same thing pre-2017, and keeping the manager despite all the locker room issues that spilled out into the public eye this year fits with that expectation perfectly.

And I don't see what's so difficult about not holding him the fall guy, and getting on to the problem with the roster. Apparently, they like how Robin handles the team during the time we don't see.

 

Again, if they hired Joe Maddon or anyone else when they hired Robin, and they had the exact same rosters, every single one of them would be considered an idiot right now.

If anyone else had been given a shot for five years and this had been the result, you bet I'd want them fired too, and they'd deserve it.

 

Instead I'm supposed to be thankful the team is so fearless. We will see what they do about the roster and I'll take what I can get, but it isn't the only problem.