5 hours ago, RockRaines said:

Lebron is the best player of all time, he's always the best on the court.

Agreed, and longevity matters. His career has transcended Jordan's, and in my opinion he's a far superior player than MJ could ever have hoped to be and a superior talent among his generation than MJ was among his.

The talent/dominance gap from LeBron to whomever the fuck you'd consider the 2nd best player in this generation is massive. He's on another planet.

28 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If not for Draymond’s technicals, Curry’s injury and Irving’s jumper in 2016....granted, that block on Iguodala from behind was the signature play of the series.

Irving/Love are not that far off from Pippen/Grant/past-peak Rodman.

We can easily compare 2007 Cavs with Jordan’s first couple of Bulls’ playoff teams, and this year’s Cavs.

You clearly have no idea how good Scottie Pippen was.

LeBron = GOAT. Longevity matters. He's been doing it just as good if not better and hasn't taken routine siestas because of a gambling addiction.

Steve,

Your fighting an uphill battle on a Chicago board.

I thought a lot about this after last nights game. And I think it depends on how you determine who is the greatest. My basis is on who I would pick (in their prime) to be on my team to win 1 game. I think the answer is MJ over Lebron. Lebron does a lot of things, he may even be a more well rounded player, but MJ had a desire to win that is seemingly unmatched. 

I think the top 3 for me are 1) MJ and then Lebron/Magic fighting it out at 2-3. Obviously hard to talk about guys who came before them.

Just now, Soxbadger said:

Steve,

Your fighting an uphill battle on a Chicago board.

 

Yes.  Somehow being an MJ fan precludes us from admitting he's at least been equaled.  I've come to terms with it.  Lebron is fucking unreal.

3 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I don't even know if it was a foul. It was a horrid call.  

wasnt it a flagarant because he purposely stepped underneath livingston in an attempt to injure him? 

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

If not for Draymond’s technicals, Curry’s injury and Irving’s jumper in 2016....granted, that block on Iguodala from behind was the signature play of the series.

 

if only everything that helped didn't happen and all the things that hurt aren't mentioned literally every series would flip. 

 

4 hours ago, Steve9347 said:

You clearly have no idea how good Scottie Pippen was.

I’m 48.  I watched a ton of those Bulls’ games back at that time.

Pippen is a Top 50 All-Time NBA player, but if he’s drafted by an expansion team and has to play all by himself...I’m not even sure he becomes anything resembling the final product in Chicago.

And Irving or Love (especially Irving if he can overcome injuries) both have a chance to be Top 50 (at least top 75-100) talents by the ends of their playing careers.

As someone said, Jordan just had the the heart and soul of an assassin.   That competitiveness has caused him so many problems both on and off the court, but it’s one divider between the two.  Not saying I’m buying into all this “Lebron’s a nice guy, but not as good in the clutch” stuff either, but if you watched the Bulls like I did...well, it’s easy to have recency bias, there’s no way to compare the different defensive schemes both faced, we can go around and around in circles.  Lebron’s definitely a more creative passer and has improved his outside shooting well beyond anything Michael did (of course, MJ would have adjusted and figured out a way to get more arc on his outside shots in today’s game IMO).  He didn’t ever need to score from WAY outside, so he didn’t work as hard to add that one element.   But Jordan, on a consistent basis, was clearly the better defensive player as well.

Edited June 1, 20187 yr by caulfield12

Pippen could’ve been MVP in 94 and the Bulls probably should’ve been in the finals but Hollies blew the whistle.

LeBron is the greatest OVERALL player in league history.. he can play and defend every position on the floor. He leaves Cleveland, they're the worst team in the league. He leaves Miami and they cant even make the playoffs in the east with Wade and Bosh sticking around. Back to Cleveland, they go to the finals every year.

Hes got one bad mark, losing to the Mavericks.. not a whole lot he could have done in the other losses and the inevitable one this year because hes once again having to carry a team of bums.

3 hours ago, T R U said:

LeBron is the greatest OVERALL player in league history.. he can play and defend every position on the floor. He leaves Cleveland, they're the worst team in the league. He leaves Miami and they cant even make the playoffs in the east with Wade and Bosh sticking around. Back to Cleveland, they go to the finals every year.

 Hes got one bad mark, losing to the Mavericks.. not a whole lot he could have done in the other losses and the inevitable one this year because hes once again having to carry a team of bums.

Yea, Lebron is great, but East is weak, and that's an understatement that I cannot say enough.

Here's two shocking stats for you: 

1. There has been exactly only 3 East players aside from Lebron who made All NBA 1st team in this DECADE. Howard 2x, and 1x for both D Rose and Noah.

2. And take a look at the East vs. West record since 99-00 below. East won more games vs West exactly ONCE in the last 18 years. That is an INSANE stat and speaks volume to how much better the competition is better in the West than East during that span. Then take a look at the head to head record in the 90's when Jordan suited up, East was the clearly the superior conference at the time.

And yet people wondered why Lebron made the Finals every year but is only 3-5 so far (let's say he's 3-3 because he really didn't have a chance against he 07 Spurs and 17 Warriors). The dude sleep walks the weak competition in the East every year, but when he actually faces a good team from the West even when his team is at the same level or better than the other team, he's batting only .500. Yet he has suddenly became GOAT because of all the recency bias.

What this means is Lebron would have trouble making the Finals every year had his team played in the superior conference. OTOH, MJ took his team to the Finals in a superior conference and never looked back. It's still shocking to me the guy won 6 championships without playing a game 7, and has only played in a game 7 for a whopping 3 times in his career.

 

Edited June 2, 20187 yr by thxfrthmmrs

Not quantifiable, but I always think that Scottie Pippen became Scottie Pippen in no small part because someone had to go up against Michael Jordan in practice.

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Not quantifiable, but I always think that Scottie Pippen became Scottie Pippen in no small part because someone had to go up against Michael Jordan in practice.

It also amazed me that while great players take a large step back with LeBron, great players took a large step back after leaving MJ.  I will swear to my grave that Scottie Pippen wouldn't have been a fraction of the player he was without Michael.  Who can you say that about with LeBron.  He takes 25/10 guys like Bosh and Love, and they fall off.

Lebron needs to jump into people when he gets them in the air on 3 point shots. 

So much for this series...yet people around the country seem to be watching at normal/ratings high numbers, or close to it.

Crickets here though.  Not much to be said.

 

Where does Lebron eventually end up?

Philly?

Boston (would have to deal Brown/Hayward/Irving)?

Houston?

LAL?

San Antonio?

Back to Cleve?

Edited June 7, 20187 yr by caulfield12

On 6/1/2018 at 11:17 PM, southsider2k5 said:

It also amazed me that while great players take a large step back with LeBron, great players took a large step back after leaving MJ.  I will swear to my grave that Scottie Pippen wouldn't have been a fraction of the player he was without Michael.  Who can you say that about with LeBron.  He takes 25/10 guys like Bosh and Love, and they fall off.

Pippen is a top 50 player ever. 

1 hour ago, RockRaines said:

Pippen is a top 50 player ever. 

The question is what would have happened had he gone to an expansion franchise and been asked to become THE GUY right off the bat...?  Would he have still become a Top 50 All-Time player without the guiding presence of MJ?

I had GS winning the title before the season started. 

 

Fantasy basketball is easy money.

7 hours ago, RockRaines said:

Pippen is a top 50 player ever. 

Pip lead the team to the conference finals when MJ retired, and was perhaps an awful Hue Hollins call from getting into the finals.

I do think it is a legit question as to how he would have been had he not been exposed to MJ, but I am thinking he would have been awesome. 

Mark Schenowski (sp) always says Draymond Green, if he were on a bad team, wouldn't be a very highly thought of player. Just another guy. He would lead the league in Ts if he was losing 50 a year. That guy almost took Lebron's eye out and he was b****ing.

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

So much for this series...yet people around the country seem to be watching at normal/ratings high numbers, or close to it.

Crickets here though.  Not much to be said.

 

Where does Lebron eventually end up?

Philly?

Boston (would have to deal Brown/Hayward/Irving)?

Houston?

LAL?

San Antonio?

Back to Cleve?

I’d hate to see him leave again. Stay in Cleveland finish. Recruit Durant to opt out. Recruit someone else, IDGAF, just stay.

I'm still haunted by that 94 semi series vs the Knicks. Was going down exactly the way the 93 series did. Down 2-0, win next 4.

Just looked it up on youtube and Hubie brown agreeing with the call makes me vomit. It'll be the first flop I ever remember.

Cleveland did get their 1 championship, but typical for their city's sports history, they drafted a top 3 all-time NBA player, and got 1 title in 11 seasons with him.  

27 minutes ago, Brian said:

I'm still haunted by that 94 semi series vs the Knicks. Was going down exactly the way the 93 series did. Down 2-0, win next 4.

Just looked it up on youtube and Hubie brown agreeing with the call makes me vomit. It'll be the first flop I ever remember.

The picture in the Sun Times was even sicker. It was a horrible call.

On 6/1/2018 at 11:17 PM, southsider2k5 said:

It also amazed me that while great players take a large step back with LeBron, great players took a large step back after leaving MJ.  I will swear to my grave that Scottie Pippen wouldn't have been a fraction of the player he was without Michael.  Who can you say that about with LeBron.  He takes 25/10 guys like Bosh and Love, and they fall off.

I wanted to say Kyrie has gotten better after playing with Lebron, but I took a deeper look at the stats and that wasn't really the case. He was basically the same player the first 3 years with Lebron as he was before Lebron. Then he exploded last year, but he was able to maintain that level of play and even increased his efficiency this year in Boston. So I guess I haven't found a good example to dispute this.

Lebron is the better overall player based on size, athleticism, longevity, etc. but Jordan is still the GOAT. Excelling at the absolute peak of the profession...Jordan has no match in the modern game.