Sox send Frazier/DRob/Kahnle to NY ~ Rutherford/Clarkin/Clippard/Polo

[Feeky Magee]

Tommy Kahnle made some mechanical changes and has the 3rd-best SIERA in baseball this year behind Kenley Jansen and Craig Kimbrel. (David Robertson 15th-best, for context Andrew Miller 6th-best and Chris Sale 13th-best). This is not dirt the White Sox are sending the Yankees.

[greg775]

I'm saying they may have squandered fan interest and player development in the service of trying to save the owner money. They were in a rather different position to both Cubs and Sox though because they never really had a big moment where they started trading good veterans to get prospects like Cubs and Sox were able to do to kickstart things.

 

To be clear, my argument wasn't that you go for it every year, but that the reason rebuilding works has little to do with draft position. It's that you stockpile your system by trading veterans and prioritizing the development of your minor leaguers. You will lose and get good draft picks because of that, but there are real benefits to squeezing out a few more wins with the MLB club when it comes to giving the people who watch the games on TV and in the ballpark something worth seeing. From a development standpoint, I think it helps the players to win whenever they can—I also think some pitchers benefit psychologically from not seeing their leads pissed away by awful bullpens.

 

I'm of the opinion that the benefits of winning a little bit more are usually better than picking 2th instead of 5th or whatever.

Jake, it may seem you are preaching and nobody's nodding in agreement, so rest assured I agree with you. Tell em, brother!

 

That's a very long winded way of saying you don't understand tanking and the benefits of the highest possible draft pick. That's okay, you aren't alone.

Sox 35, your tone is quite rude. You know, not everybody in the world agrees with everything you say. You may think you know more than Jake, I disagree. Why the mean posts to Jake?

 

No, I do understand. Look at the Cubs World Series roster and tell me about all the good players they got due to their (not even all that high) draft position. It won't take long because it's pretty much just 1 guy. Their rebuild was successful largely due to the trades, not their draft position. I hope the White Sox pursue it the same way because the draft position ain't worth that much when you know it's going to be a good one either way.

Jake the Snake! I agree with Jake's calm, polite positions on this matter.

 

Where do you get this crap from? Theo all but said the Cubs were going to try to lose and they did. A lot. Maybe read a little more before saying a team that won 61 games in one season was trying to win?

Ugh. I believe you are being rude to a very nice poster who is posting opinions that are well reasoned. Why the meanness?

 

That makes his complete lack of understanding of basic team building strategy all the more disappointing.

Says who? he has the right to say what he wants.

 

Don't worry, I won't respond any more to 35th on this issue. I'll let everybody enjoy the trade tonight but I felt the need to speak in support of Jake the Great!

[BaconOnAStick]

Rutherford is playing at the same level as recently drafted advanced college hitters and holding his own. K rate only 18.1% against an 8.2% bb. Not a lot of power, that's what's holding back his OPS. He also plays a premium defensive position really well with the tools to get better.

 

He's a great get, and getting him outside of the Q/Sale/Eaton deals is a massive coup.

[RudyLawRules]

Frazier is not a quality piece. He's a rental coming off 1.5 s*** years.

Kahnle has be a "piece" for 3 months.

 

People are crazy

 

This x 100.

[Jake]

Where do you get this crap from? Theo all but said the Cubs were going to try to lose and they did. A lot. Maybe read a little more before saying a team that won 61 games in one season was trying to win?

 

I've given you all the evidence and reasoning that I can. I'm trying to make a distinction between a team like the Sox or Cubs that decides it will prioritize building up its minor leagues over its MLB team (this will always make you lose as a side effect) and the idea that you should make a concerted effort to lose as many games as possible regardless of whether that effort improves your organization. The Cubs would have waited longer to call up Rizzo if they wanted to lose more. They wouldn't have thrown a bunch of money at Edwin Jackson (as it turns out, that helped the losing! oops!). But they let the wins happen because they knew the rebuilding process would keep their draft position in a high-value place regardless.

 

What I think is stupid is the idea of intentionally slow-walking player development, refusing to use the bullpen in a smart way, or dumping decent MLB performers for no return in hopes of generating extra losses. Or, as a general rule, rooting against your team. They'll lose enough without anyone trying to make it happen if you're trading away every veteran who isn't nailed down.

[fathom]

Holder?

 

Tate?

[ChiSox1917]

If Abreu is in single a that's my guess.

 

Abreu would get me as excited as Florial or Andujar,

[iWiN4PreP]

Frazier is not a quality piece. He's a rental coming off 1.5 s*** years.

Kahnle has be a "piece" for 3 months.

 

People are crazy

 

Highly disagree. Typically, you don't make these types of deals. You don't package your bullets like this.

 

D-Rob is a high quality get for the Yankees for this year and next.

Kahnle, as others have mentioned, has been absolutely fantastic and should cost the most. He is not simply an 'add' to this deal, he is the deal.

Frazier is a big get as well, as he has a lot of power and stops the R'Sox from taking him on.

 

We are getting Rutherford, who while being awesome and exciting, is 20 years old and just drafted last year.

Clarkin's nice.

But nothing else.

 

Meh. Not too bad, don't get me wrong, but mehhhh.

 

The one condolence here is the lack of quality prospects being traded in the Nationals/A's trade and JD Martinez trade.

Edited July 19, 2017 by iWin4Ron

[witesoxfan]

s***, I'm still excited about Scott Williamson, that level of hype doesn't just wear off. Same for Scott Schoeneweis.

 

Scott Schoeneweis was the left handed version of Esteban Loaiza. Unfortunately, it was the Esteban Loaiza from every other year of his career other than 2003.

[soxforlife05]

For a top 40 prospect. The problem is people bringing up these 5 player packages, some including Torres. Cashman isn't a dumbass. He knows he isn't getting great players back, too.

 

frazier and robertson have zero value to the white sox. neither would be on the team during the next window. kahnle is a middle reliever having a decent year could easily be a flash in the pan. if kahnle regresses the sox didn't really lose anything and gained another top prospect

[caulfield12]

Seems to be equally about monetary savings, have to hope we eventually flip Clippard as a successful closer...or is his contract expiring this year? 2018?

 

How much is he owed?

[Rowand44]

Thank you.

 

Literally anything we get for players we don't need and salary we can dump is a win.

There's literally 0 reason to salary dump at this point. And Drob and Kahnle both have value whether it's to the Sox winning ball games or not. Should have traded Sale for nothing since he had no value to us.

[heirdog]

Todd Frazier wouldn't buy you a bus ticket in this market

Robertson isn't Chapman or Miller

Kahnle is essentially Nate Jones from a couple years ago (sell high before injury/implosion)

 

If that nets me a top 40 prospect that could continue to trend up, a LH starting pitcher w pretty good stuff and another low level lottery ticket...sign me up every single time.

[steveno89]

I've given you all the evidence and reasoning that I can. I'm trying to make a distinction between a team like the Sox or Cubs that decides it will prioritize building up its minor leagues over its MLB team (this will always make you lose as a side effect) and the idea that you should make a concerted effort to lose as many games as possible regardless of whether that effort improves your organization. The Cubs would have waited longer to call up Rizzo if they wanted to lose more. They wouldn't have thrown a bunch of money at Edwin Jackson (as it turns out, that helped the losing! oops!). But they let the wins happen because they knew the rebuilding process would keep their draft position in a high-value place regardless.

 

What I think is stupid is the idea of intentionally slow-walking player development, refusing to use the bullpen in a smart way, or dumping decent MLB performers for no return in hopes of generating extra losses. Or, as a general rule, rooting against your team. They'll lose enough without anyone trying to make it happen if you're trading away every veteran who isn't nailed down.

 

Rumors of Tito polo bring final piece. I like him if so as prospect. Played of for Colombia in wbc.

[TitoMB345]

There's literally 0 reason to salary dump at this point. And Drob and Kahnle both have value whether it's to the Sox winning ball games or not. Should have traded Sale for nothing since he had no value to us.

Sale sells tickets.

[TitoMB345]

Rumors of Tito polo bring final piece. I like him if so as prospect. Played of for Colombia in wbc.

ayyyy my new fav prospect if true.

[jenksycat]

Highly disagree. Typically, you don't make these types of deals. You don't package your bullets like this.

 

D-Rob is a high quality get for the Yankees for this year and next.

Kahnle, as others have mentioned, has been absolutely fantastic and should cost the most. He is not simply an 'add' to this deal, he is the deal.

Frazier is a big get as well, as he has a lot of power and stops the R'Sox from taking him on.

 

We are getting Rutherford, who while being awesome and exciting, is 20 years old and just drafted last year.

Clarkin's nice.

But nothing else.

 

Meh. Not too bad, don't get me wrong, but mehhhh.

 

No, he's not

 

And if a "slight mechanical change" is all Kahnle needed to become the best reliever in the game for the next 4 years then A) Cooper needs a 10 year contract extension. B) I'll eat my hat

[witesoxfan]

Thank you.

 

Literally anything we get for players we don't need and salary we can dump is a win.

 

Salary dumps should mean nothing. Relatively speaking, there is nothing attached to the 2018 payroll. If they are trading players off for a salary dump, then sign me up with whatever WBSWF is feeling, because that's total and utter bulls***.

 

That said, this is not about a salary dump, so we'll forget you mentioned that.

[Chicago White Sox]

Abreu would get me as excited as Florial or Andujar,

I'd rather have one of those positional guys, but Abreu as the mystery man would make me very ok with the trade. He's also part of the 40 man roster crunch next year and makes a ton of sense for the Yankees to move given where he's at in his career.

[greg775]

I've given you all the evidence and reasoning that I can. I'm trying to make a distinction between a team like the Sox or Cubs that decides it will prioritize building up its minor leagues over its MLB team (this will always make you lose as a side effect) and the idea that you should make a concerted effort to lose as many games as possible regardless of whether that effort improves your organization. The Cubs would have waited longer to call up Rizzo if they wanted to lose more. They wouldn't have thrown a bunch of money at Edwin Jackson (as it turns out, that helped the losing! oops!). But they let the wins happen because they knew the rebuilding process would keep their draft position in a high-value place regardless.

 

What I think is stupid is the idea of intentionally slow-walking player development, refusing to use the bullpen in a smart way, or dumping decent MLB performers for no return in hopes of generating extra losses. Or, as a general rule, rooting against your team. They'll lose enough without anyone trying to make it happen if you're trading away every veteran who isn't nailed down.

I nominate Jake for poster of the day.

[fathom]

Tito Polo?

[Soxbadger]

Scott Schoeneweis was the left handed version of Esteban Loaiza. Unfortunately, it was the Esteban Loaiza from every other year of his career other than 2003.

 

 

Just wait till we call up Borchard and Rauch

 

 

[Jake]

Won't be in this deal, but I hope Sox are open to getting young MLBers who haven't put things together yet in deals. Imagine how little someone would have had to offer to get Avi Garcia in a deal this winter. We should look to get some guys like that coming to us, though Avi's short-ish time to free agency makes him not the world's best example.

[Rowand44]

Sale sells tickets.

As confirmed by the fact the team has better attendance this year.

[steveno89]

Tito Polo?

 

Tito polo was pulled in forth inning of good game earlier today, rumored to be final piece.