Jose Abreu Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, waltwilliams said: Longtime lurker to this board,first post. Tim’s an entertaining player who makes mistakes, to be sure. But as other posters have noted, he is young. He’s also playing the most difficult position in baseball (along with catcher), so the learning curve is greater in that regard. Luis Aparicio had 35 errors in his first year -- he recorded 30 errors as late as 1960. So this happens with shortstops This thread is primarily interesting because of its casual racism, though. Lillian’s comment about basketball players, baseball IQ’s and genetic was especially troubling in its casual racism. And troubling because no one called this out. It’s not altogether surprising, though. I’ve been a Sox fan for more than 40 years and went to school near Sox Park (proud DeLaSalle alumnus). And the one thing that many Sox fans don’t want to admit is that there’s a core group of Sox fans that has always had a double-standard for black and Latin players, including the best player in franchise history, Frank Thomas. I think this is partly because the core Sox fans have historically come from nearby neighborhoods like Bridgeport, Canaryville, Mount Greenwood, Morgan Park and other Southwest Side neighborhoods which have had a history of racial tension and animosity towards blacks and Latins. This animosity exists today, as noted by this Sun-Times story about a Latin little league team being labeled as “taco boys” when they played in Beverly: https://chicago.suntimes.com/?post_type=cst_article&p=1067048 Welcome. While I understand/respect your point, Anderson was literally a basketball player his whole life until late in high school. So when Lillian wrote, "that's what happens when you sign a basketball player", it applies literally, in this context, as he has spent more years as a basketball player in his life than he has as a baseball player. Edited April 30, 2018 by Jose Abreu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, waltwilliams said: Longtime lurker to this board,first post. Tim’s an entertaining player who makes mistakes, to be sure. But as other posters have noted, he is young. He’s also playing the most difficult position in baseball (along with catcher), so the learning curve is greater in that regard. Luis Aparicio had 35 errors in his first year -- he recorded 30 errors as late as 1960. So this happens with shortstops This thread is primarily interesting because of its casual racism, though. Lillian’s comment about basketball players, baseball IQ’s and genetic was especially troubling in its casual racism. And troubling because no one called this out. It’s not altogether surprising, though. I’ve been a Sox fan for more than 40 years and went to school near Sox Park (proud DeLaSalle alumnus). And the one thing that many Sox fans don’t want to admit is that there’s a core group of Sox fans that has always had a double-standard for black and Latin players, including the best player in franchise history, Frank Thomas. I think this is partly because the core Sox fans have historically come from nearby neighborhoods like Bridgeport, Canaryville, Mount Greenwood, Morgan Park and other Southwest Side neighborhoods which have had a history of racial tension and animosity towards blacks and Latins. This animosity exists today, as noted by this Sun-Times story about a Latin little league team being labeled as “taco boys” when they played in Beverly: https://chicago.suntimes.com/?post_type=cst_article&p=1067048 In general I think that Soxtalk is a pretty racist free zone, there might be a couple of exceptions here and there, but in general I think people get caught up in the hyperfocus of a single play or two and use those plays to cloud their memories over the ones that aren't especially meaningful. If we are being fully honest here, there are plenty of white players of White Sox history who have been roasted on Soxtalk for doing baseball stupid things, Chris Sale being the first one that comes to mind. There are definitely others, and it really doesn't correspond to race or heritage very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) Thank you "Jose Abreu," for clarifying my remarks. You interpreted them in precisely the way that I intended. Tim was indeed a basketball player, whom scouts described as being a "raw" baseball talent. He possesses intriguing tools, and is a gifted athlete. However, he is still learning the game. I use the term baseball "acumen," which I believe is a better word than "IQ". Acumen is defined as; "skill in making correct decisions and judgments in business or in a particular endeavor." The implication is that it is an acquired skill, rather than an innate ability, such as IQ. This article should reinforce the perception: http://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/chicago-white-sox/growth-spurt-how-tim-anderson-developed-blossoming-star Edited April 30, 2018 by Lillian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Yes, let's cool it down with "casual racism" remarks. People often criticize baseball players in terms of baseball IQ, particularly young players with lots of talent who make errors that seem unbecoming of their talent. It doesn't mean they are racist and casually throwing those remarks around when you have no idea who the person is you are accusing is probably not a good idea. I can recall similar remarks made of young players such as Brian Anderson, Joe Borchard, Tyler Flowers, and others. I'm sure there are other examples I'm not remembering.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Special K said: Yes, let's cool it down with "casual racism" remarks. People often criticize baseball players in terms of baseball IQ, particularly young players with lots of talent who make errors that seem unbecoming of their talent. It doesn't mean they are racist and casually throwing those remarks around when you have no idea who the person is you are accusing is probably not a good idea. I can recall similar remarks made of young players such as Brian Anderson, Joe Borchard, Tyler Flowers, and others. I'm sure there are other examples I'm not remembering.... Mike Caruso. Slappy as the Boy Wonder called him. Perhaps the most baseball clueless SS of all time. Edited April 30, 2018 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 I don't think people are often intentionally racist, but it is present and inherent. Ramirez/Beckham and Thomas/Ventura are both good examples. If Anderson continues to play with an edge and anger some people, it'll be interesting to see how he's treated in comparison to a guy like AJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
credezcrew24 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 23 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: I don't think people are often intentionally racist, but it is present and inherent. Ramirez/Beckham and Thomas/Ventura are both good examples. If Anderson continues to play with an edge and anger some people, it'll be interesting to see how he's treated in comparison to a guy like AJ. Beckham was probably the most memed player in this forums history. Very few people have an issue with Anderson's "edge", this thread was made to talk baseball not race. If people think Anderson would contribute to the team better at CF in comparison to SS that's a baseball issue not a race issue. People want to see Anderson succeed. They're not calling for him to be benched or put at 1st Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, credezcrew24 said: Beckham was probably the most memed player in this forums history. Very few people have an issue with Anderson's "edge", this thread was made to talk baseball not race. If people think Anderson would contribute to the team better at CF in comparison to SS that's a baseball issue not a race issue. People want to see Anderson succeed. They're not calling for him to be benched or put at 1st Nobody took exception to the move to CF. People took exception to saying he had a low baseball IQ. Obviously it's a touchy subject when talking about black players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
credezcrew24 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 On 4/28/2018 at 11:28 AM, TaylorStSox said: There was a definite racist tilt to the criticism of Ramirez and I suspect the same with Anderson. It's not a lot different than when black QB's make mental errors. 14 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Nobody took exception to the move to CF. People took exception to saying he had a low baseball IQ. Obviously it's a touchy subject when talking about black players. It would've been nice if you made that clear in your first post rather than "suspecting a racist tilt to criticism of Anderson" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Nobody took exception to the move to CF. People took exception to saying he had a low baseball IQ. Obviously it's a touchy subject when talking about black players. Well people did early on. But that seemed so obvious that it wasn't a lot of people. There is zero chance that Tim Anderson gets moved to CF. If anything he could move to 3rd eventually, but I think with his crazy range, he is a SS who need a lot of reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 No need to defend your comments unless you see yourself in the mirror. It was claimed people criticized Alexei for the same reason. Alexei did make a lot of mental mistakes. Tim might have an issue still with being young and unproven. Fans always get impatient with mental mistakes. We like to see improvement. I don't see an impact player after the Sox brought him up young and tried to oversell his potential. Maybe it's not his fault. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Given the history of racial tension in Bridgeport and the treatment of Frank Thomas, which is one of the most shameful things I've personally witnessed in sports, it might behoove us as Sox fans to err on the side of caution and be a little more sensitive. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Special K said: Yes, let's cool it down with "casual racism" remarks. People often criticize baseball players in terms of baseball IQ, particularly young players with lots of talent who make errors that seem unbecoming of their talent. It doesn't mean they are racist and casually throwing those remarks around when you have no idea who the person is you are accusing is probably not a good idea. I can recall similar remarks made of young players such as Brian Anderson, Joe Borchard, Tyler Flowers, and others. I'm sure there are other examples I'm not remembering.... There is both too much ignorance and too much sensitivity out there. I try to tolerate everyone doing their thing. Some whites flip out when you say that flag is not allowed here. Tolerance within reason. I support Kap and diversity. Baseball has had strange diversity. I wish Tim had more friends in his club to hang with. What would Jackie think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Given the history of racial tension in Bridgeport and the treatment of Frank Thomas, which is one of the most shameful things I've personally witnessed in sports, it might behoove us as Sox fans to err on the side of caution and be a little more sensitive. That's all. Frank Thomas got put through the ringer because he had a habit of saying and doing stupid stuff, not because he was black. I mean if you think about it, the biggest hero in the City of Chicago is Michael Jordan who was a serial adulterer, and a degenerate gambler who punched teammates. No one even talks about that stuff because he is Michael Jordan and the greatest of all time. Anytime someone talks up LeBron James, the whole Jordan mafia goes to work on his defense, and has for every single threat to his legacy since he retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: Frank Thomas got put through the ringer because he had a habit of saying and doing stupid stuff, not because he was black. I mean if you think about it, the biggest hero in the City of Chicago is Michael Jordan who was a serial adulterer, and a degenerate gambler who punched teammates. No one even talks about that stuff because he is Michael Jordan and the greatest of all time. Anytime someone talks up LeBron James, the whole Jordan mafia goes to work on his defense, and has for every single threat to his legacy since he retired. You're comparing different sports and different cultures. Basketball has always had a more liberal culture. I sat in the stands as a kid and couldn't believe the things I heard Sox fans saying about Frank. At the time, I thought he was a God and couldn't understand why people treated him that way. Again, I witnessed it with my own eyes and ears and it left a lasting impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Also, no athlete has ever been as protected as MJ, from the league down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Just now, TaylorStSox said: You're comparing different sports and different cultures. Basketball has always had a more liberal culture. I sat in the stands as a kid and couldn't believe the things I heard Sox fans saying about Frank. At the time, I thought he was a God and couldn't understand why people treated him that way. Again, I witnessed it with my own eyes and ears and it left a lasting impression. It really isn't sports based as Derrick Rose who has a lot in common with Frank in the area of not knowing when to shut up got a lot of the same treatment as Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Hey man, you guys do what you want, but when it comes to admonishing black players for their low sports IQ's I'm gonna go ahead and kindly bow out. Have at it. 😀 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: In general I think that Soxtalk is a pretty racist free zone, there might be a couple of exceptions here and there, but in general I think people get caught up in the hyperfocus of a single play or two and use those plays to cloud their memories over the ones that aren't especially meaningful. If we are being fully honest here, there are plenty of white players of White Sox history who have been roasted on Soxtalk for doing baseball stupid things, Chris Sale being the first one that comes to mind. There are definitely others, and it really doesn't correspond to race or heritage very well. I don’t want to call out anyone here specifically, but there is most definitely a bias against black athletes. IMO, a white SS making the same mistakes that Tim has made would be far less likely to be referred to as being mentally retarded in terms of baseball IQ. I also think they would get less shit for demonstrating their excitement on the field. Soxtalk in general is pretty good about this stuff, more of an observance of baseball fans in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-Gun Pete Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 I don't think it is/was racist to refer to Anderson as a basketball player, because as others have said here, that's exactly what he was when he was drafted. That said, the more cogent point [to me, anyway] is that for a guy with little experience, he was rushed, full-stop. A guy with as little meaningful high-level competition as Anderson had is going to make mistakes. And so, it is a disservice to Anderson for him to have been brought up when he was. I think its more illustrative of the moronic way this org has treated its prospects for far too long moreso than Anderson being mistake-prone. Of course he's gonna make mistakes, he was a JUCO player who later only had 55 games in AAA. This org reaps what it sows with this kid. I had hoped that they would have learned their lesson, but then we have to watch Moncada's Ks and his middle reliever-caliber RH bat. [66 WRC+ vs LHP] And yes, Moncada's been great this year, but how much better could he have been NOW with more time in Charlotte in 2017? [Imagine him with a ~25% K rate, and a ~90ish wRC+ as a RHH, had he been given the time to work out these issues. One drools at the possibility...] Here's hoping that someway, somehow the jokers who have given us a decade+ of being "mired in mediocrity" can learn something, and stop rushing players who clearly aren't done with their development. I don't want to see Jimenez or Kopech until September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 I have no idea why you are a Sox fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 If Sox sign Machado, TA moves to CF in a heartbeat. TA is not a very good SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, Soxfest said: If Sox sign Machado, TA moves to CF in a heartbeat. TA is not a very good SS. Anderson > Machado defensively at SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, Soxfest said: If Sox sign Machado, TA moves to CF in a heartbeat. TA is not a very good SS. In fairness, Machado has only played about 10% of his career games at SS. We may find out this year if he is better at 3rd than SS regardless of his desire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 17 minutes ago, Soxfest said: If Sox sign Machado, TA moves to CF in a heartbeat. TA is not a very good SS. If you think he's not a good shortstop, just wait until you see how that would work out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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