I've never seen a catcher who could not catch. Until Narvaez. They should work on rudimentary hand eye coordination to develop him

4 hours ago, bmags said:

Because had they improved his defense to the extent that Oakland did where he was passable as a SS, he would have been more valuable to the franchise either as a trade chip or player.

And also that being able to identify marcus semien's that can improve to passable players prevent you from needing to buy passable talent instead of grouping that additional money or prospects to get actual impact talent.

Overall, sox need to maximize value out of as many prospects as possible, and that additional margin of value will pay off regardless of whether it becomes a super star machine or just provides a bunch of average depth.

Didn't we also hear something along the lines of the Sox not using of high speed video cameras with pitchers ?

1 hour ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

I've never seen a catcher who could not catch. Until Narvaez. They should work on rudimentary hand eye coordination to develop him

 Wayne Nordhagen musta been before your time.

55 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Didn't we also hear something along the lines of the Sox not using of high speed video cameras with pitchers ?

Fegan At least acknowledges their presence in the Fuller article. Pretty certain they use it.

10 hours ago, bmags said:

Fegan At least acknowledges their presence in the Fuller article. Pretty certain they use it.

Fulmer ? But wasn't that drive line using them and not the White Sox ?

12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Fulmer ? But wasn't that drive line using them and not the White Sox ?

Yes sorry Fulmer article. I'll look for it. It was a nice article outlining what the relationship is like between player and org. Big fan of Fegan, he always seems to take the angle that the soxtalk board is most curious about.

Here's the quote:

Quote

There are Rapsodo devices dotting the grass where White Sox pitchers throw side sessions at their spring training complex, and often high-speed Chronos cameras set up behind them as they throw. The changes Fulmer detailed that describe an arsenal based on elevating his fastball and playing off it vertically with his curveball and changeup do not sound dissimilar from the ones the White Sox prescribed for Jimmy Lambert, or even the adjustments made to Dylan Cease and Dane Dunning’s curves.

 

The Indians hired Kai a year ago.  Here is a combination of analytics merging over into practical development.  Would of been nice for the sox to have this guy teaching the next group of sox infielders.  My only hope is that Vizquel has an impact in the minors in AA.

Edited February 23, 20197 yr by southsideirish71

9 hours ago, bmags said:

Yes sorry Fulmer article. I'll look for it. It was a nice article outlining what the relationship is like between player and org. Big fan of Fegan, he always seems to take the angle that the soxtalk board is most curious about.

Here's the quote:

 

Jimmy Lambert is actually a great example to use showing the White Sox advancements with arms; Lambert's progress is classic White Sox for a pitcher. Instill the high fastball in his mind as being not a dangerous pitch, but an out pitch. Lambert's ability to maximize his fastball that way has led to his incredible improvement. His changing of the hitters eye level, paired with keeping his breaking pitches down, turned him from a pitch to contact organizational piece, to a strike out oriented pitcher with an impact ceiling.

Lambert is maybe the most underrated story coming into this season, as his stuff is really playing up now, and it pairs terrifically with his above average (already) control. Lambert could be a right handed Quintana. The White Sox were actually the first team to really push the high fastball back into the game - well, them and the Rays I would say. I have no idea why fans don't think the White Sox are heavily invested in pitching analytics and data collection. They are. They say Cooper doesn't embrace them but he clearly does - he simply just doesn't talk in new age verbiage. Cooper plays the psychologist - which is very important for pitchers - and he sees pitching through a different lens. I actually believe they compliment each other perfectly - they being the White Sox analytics department and Cooper.

Edited February 23, 20197 yr by Look at Ray Ray Run

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Jimmy Lambert is actually a great example to use showing the White Sox advancements with arms; Lambert's progress is classic White Sox for a pitcher. Instill the high fastball in his mind as being not a dangerous pitch, but an out pitch. Lambert's ability to maximize his fastball that way has led to his incredible improvement. His changing of the hitters eye level, paired with keeping his breaking pitches down, turned him from a pitch to contact organizational piece, to a strike out oriented pitcher with an impact ceiling.

Lambert is maybe the most underrated story coming into this season, as his stuff is really playing up now, and it pairs terrifically with his above average (already) control. Lambert could be a right handed Quintana. The White Sox were actually the first team to really push the high fastball back into the game - well, them and the Rays I would say. I have no idea why fans don't think the White Sox are heavily invested in pitching analytics and data collection. They are. They say Cooper doesn't embrace them but he clearly does - he simply just doesn't talk in new age verbiage. Cooper plays the psychologist - which is very important for pitchers - and he sees pitching through a different lens. I actually believe they compliment each other perfectly - they being the White Sox analytics department and Cooper.

They definitely compliment each other, Cooper’s ego might be the biggest in the organization...the anti-Vizquel or Jirschele.

The real question here is whether they are complementary...and how accidental vs. strategic it is.

Will wait to see on Lambert, but every year there’s a Jordan Guerrero, Flores, Adams, Danish or Beck.  Still awaiting a true breakthrough from one of these guys.  At least Covey showed some flashes, compared to where he was in his Rule 5 year.

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

They definitely compliment each other, Cooper’s ego might be the biggest in the organization...the anti-Vizquel or Jirschele.

The real question here is whether they are complementary...and how accidental vs. strategic it is.

Will wait to see on Lambert, but every year there’s a Jordan Guerrero, Flores, Adams, Danish or Beck.  Still awaiting a true breakthrough from one of these guys.  At least Covey showed some flashes, compared to where he was in his Rule 5 year.

Eh, those guys weren't striking people out at the rate Lambert was, nor were they preventing baserunners at the clip he did. Lambert had a FIP of about 2.75 last year with a K-rate north of 10.5. Guerrero was probably the closest to ever matching his production so far, but Guerrero always lacked the stuff imo. Jimmy has the stuff at least.

On 2/22/2019 at 6:28 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Jimmy Lambert is actually a great example to use showing the White Sox advancements with arms; Lambert's progress is classic White Sox for a pitcher. Instill the high fastball in his mind as being not a dangerous pitch, but an out pitch. Lambert's ability to maximize his fastball that way has led to his incredible improvement. His changing of the hitters eye level, paired with keeping his breaking pitches down, turned him from a pitch to contact organizational piece, to a strike out oriented pitcher with an impact ceiling.

Lambert is maybe the most underrated story coming into this season, as his stuff is really playing up now, and it pairs terrifically with his above average (already) control. Lambert could be a right handed Quintana. The White Sox were actually the first team to really push the high fastball back into the game - well, them and the Rays I would say. I have no idea why fans don't think the White Sox are heavily invested in pitching analytics and data collection. They are. They say Cooper doesn't embrace them but he clearly does - he simply just doesn't talk in new age verbiage. Cooper plays the psychologist - which is very important for pitchers - and he sees pitching through a different lens. I actually believe they compliment each other perfectly - they being the White Sox analytics department and Cooper.

Here is a fantastic writeup from Fegan that discusses lambert and other pitchers and how the sox incorporating data and analytics into their development.

https://theathletic.com/835962/2019/02/25/give-everything-a-chance-the-many-ways-white-sox-prospects-utilize-pitch-data-or-not/

Quote

The most data-centric adjustment Cease made last season was altering his four-seam fastball grip, letting it go from his hand with the cue to look at the seams of the ball and think about “making the horseshoe go the other way” upon release. The 200 rpm increase Cease said resulted doesn’t clearly show up in the Trackman numbers I’ve seen (which are not the White Sox’s internal figures, obviously). But when he came to the Sox he had top-shelf velocity and above-average spin on his fastball; now he has top-shelf velocity and a four-seam spin rate that would rank in the top 5 percent of the majors.

 

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Here is a fantastic writeup from Fegan that discusses lambert and other pitchers and how the sox incorporating data and analytics into their development.

https://theathletic.com/835962/2019/02/25/give-everything-a-chance-the-many-ways-white-sox-prospects-utilize-pitch-data-or-not/

 

They should have Giolito do that this year. 

50 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They should have Giolito do that this year. 

Lambert has an well above average spin rate.  Giolito is a different animal.

1 minute ago, Timmy U said:

Lambert has an well above average spin rate.  Giolito is a different animal.

I know, but if it can increase spin why wouldn't he try it? If it gets him above average it would be a big deal. The last thing you want in terms of spin is average. If it only gets him to average it hurts more than helps. 

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

I know, but if it can increase spin why wouldn't he try it? If it gets him above average it would be a big deal. The last thing you want in terms of spin is average. If it only gets him to average it hurts more than helps. 

What do suggest to increase his spin rate?  If Trevor Bauer is to be believed, the Astros use clear pine tar.

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I know, but if it can increase spin why wouldn't he try it? If it gets him above average it would be a big deal. The last thing you want in terms of spin is average. If it only gets him to average it hurts more than helps. 

He is so below average Id prefer he work on figuring out harnessing his curve again and working backward.

1 minute ago, bmags said:

He is so below average Id prefer he work on figuring out harnessing his curve again and working backward.

I don't disagree. That 2 seamer he was throwing up there in July and August was a really nasty pitch though. He actually threw it harder than the 4 seamer. Was sitting around 94-95

On 2/21/2019 at 2:28 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It's just proof this post is nonsense. Sox turned navarez from a non prospect to a starting catcher. People will hate just to hate. Collins has supposedly improved significantly too.

White Sox need to spend more on their analytical department but this navarez obsession is odd.

What they didn't need to so was to trade him for an average closer on a 2  year deal.

Part of the reason it was so key to land a whale. Can have a star already by just spending money (not even draft pick compensation) and not have to worry about developing him. Not that this rebuild is doomed, but there's more pressure to hit on more prospects.

Edited February 25, 20197 yr by soxfan2014

1 minute ago, soxfan2014 said:

Part of the reason it was so key to land a whale. Can have a star already developed by just spending money (not even draft pick compensation). Not that this rebuild is doomed, but there's more pressure to hit on more prospects.

This was one of the reasons I was so disappointed.

If given the choice, and you say on one choice the sox would develop talent and scout as well as the indians or I could have manny, I'd choose the former.

Manny just helped paper over some of the deficit to allow the hit rate on stars from our farm system to be lower, but now it has to be really high on starters and a few stars. 

Now, I'm open to the idea things are better than the results. Last year above all was brutal largely due to injuries. Hansen could not recover post injury mentally or whatever. Collins and Sheets were the downers, but then it was mostly the 4A guys in cordell and tilson that they got nothing from.

Everyone else was decent but just got crushed by injuries. Dunning, robert, kopech, adolfo, burger (not decent, ended up nothing.

Maybe with health this year they show they are at another level and...great. Hope so!