McCann Extension

[BackDoorBreach]

There is no reason at all to extend him.  It's not even the ASB yet and he has been offensively deficient his whole career.  If he his still mashing next year around this time, fine.

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

There is no reason at all to extend him.  It's not even the ASB yet and he has been offensively deficient his whole career.  If he his still mashing next year around this time, fine.

All of us want to keep him and this discussion is mostly about wouldn't it be cheaper now than after the year.  I'm in the earlier the better camp but don't care much because it's Jerry's money.  RH does better with extensions than just about anyone.  I'll trust him to figure it out.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, mqr said:

Yeah none of metrics have been all that favorably. Just a whole lot better than anyone we've seen since......

Catching metrics are about as reliable as Adam Engel with an at bat in a big moment - especially this early in a season.

McCann has been, by most accounts, one of the better defensively catchers in baseball this year. A catchers defensive impact is so difficult to measure. It is one of the few things in which I'll actually accept "eye tests" from scouts on.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, BackDoorBreach said:

There is no reason at all to extend him.  It's not even the ASB yet and he has been offensively deficient his whole career.  If he his still mashing next year around this time, fine.

The bat is just a bonus with McCann. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:36 AM, chitownsportsfan said:

We'll see.  I have my doubts the Sox can produce any sort of competence at catcher defensively.  If he can hit, and he's the backup, not a problem really.

This is a weird take given that the Sox developed Tyler flowers from an incompetent back stop to a + backstop.

[chitownsportsfan]

52 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This is a weird take given that the Sox developed Tyler flowers from an incompetent back stop to a + backstop.

How many of the staff from 2010-2015 are even still around at any level?  How much stock do we put in his improvement given he had his best seasons overall, not just defensively, in another org?  

It's far from a proven fact the Sox can develop catchers defense.  Maybe their scouting has improved as they have found Narvaez and now McCann.

[bmags]

I enjoy LARRR straddling the line that player development doesn't matter and also that the white sox should receive ample credit for any player development success story. One that they believed in so much that they non-tendered them.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

How many of the staff from 2010-2015 are even still around at any level?  How much stock do we put in his improvement given he had his best seasons overall, not just defensively, in another org?  

It's far from a proven fact the Sox can develop catchers defense.  Maybe their scouting has improved as they have found Narvaez and now McCann.

They took a guy with extreme framing and mobility issues behind the plate and turned him into a + defensive catcher. 

The organization he "went too" was the same one whom he came from originally in which he had big defensive questions.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

59 minutes ago, bmags said:

I enjoy LARRR straddling the line that player development doesn't matter and also that the white sox should receive ample credit for any player development success story. One that they believed in so much that they non-tendered them.

I never have said it doesnt matter. Not once. Please don't misrepresent my words. It does not make as much of a difference as the majority of you believe. I had about 1000 coaches, both from teams and my own personal coaching, and development is more so on the player than any coach or organization. Its not as if the Sox system was full of Frank Thomas' that the team sabotaged with "bad development."

My entire argument has been that it is much more likely the Sox have been poor at drafting and evaluating talent than it is that they are drafting good players and not developing them correctly.

I don't think the Sox created Tyler flowers, but if you're going to say the Sox cant develop catchers with no proveable data to back it then I'm certainly going to present Tyler flowers as a counter point.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I never have said it doesnt matter. Not once. Please don't misrepresent my words. It does not make as much of a difference as the majority of you believe. I had about 1000 coaches, both from teams and my own personal coaching, and development is more so on the player than any coach or organization. Its not as if the Sox system was full of Frank Thomas' that the team sabotaged with "bad development."

My entire argument has been that it is much more likely the Sox have been poor at drafting and evaluating talent than it is that they are drafting good players and not developing them correctly.

I don't think the Sox created Tyler flowers, but if you're going to say the Sox cant develop catchers with no proveable data to back it then I'm certainly going to present Tyler flowers as a counter point.

so what's your point then? take a stand buddy!

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

12 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

so what's your point then? take a stand buddy!

My stand is your initial post was factually wrong. You cited doubts that the Sox could EVER develop a defensively competent catcher. I showed you one that has happened in the last 6 years. So that is my stand.

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

My stand is your initial post was factually wrong. You cited doubts that the Sox could EVER develop a defensively competent catcher. I showed you one that has happened in the last 6 years. So that is my stand.

Well I'm not sure the epistemological conditions needed to conclude the Sox can develop good defensive catchers so I'll concede.

[bmags]

13 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I never have said it doesnt matter. Not once. Please don't misrepresent my words. It does not make as much of a difference as the majority of you believe. I had about 1000 coaches, both from teams and my own personal coaching, and development is more so on the player than any coach or organization. Its not as if the Sox system was full of Frank Thomas' that the team sabotaged with "bad development."

My entire argument has been that it is much more likely the Sox have been poor at drafting and evaluating talent than it is that they are drafting good players and not developing them correctly.

I don't think the Sox created Tyler flowers, but if you're going to say the Sox cant develop catchers with no proveable data to back it then I'm certainly going to present Tyler flowers as a counter point.

When we are discussing Flowers value we are talking about framing almost exclusively. Considering they didn't value it as seen by their replacements for the next several years, and that framing only started to come up around in popular blogs as of 2013, I think it's likely that this is just something that he picked up on and happened to be good at. 

He wasn't good at blocking, he wasn't particularly good at throwing runners out, he was very good at framing.
 

In 2015, Flowers last year with the white sox:

Framing Runs: 19.2 (3rd)

Blocking Runs: -2.8 (107th)

Throwing Runs: -.6 (98th)

FRAA_ADJ: 15.1 (8th best in majors)

In 2017, two years later with braves:

Framing Runs: 32 (1st)

Blocking runs: -.8 (90th)

Throwing Runs: -1.1 (102nd)

FRAA_ADJ: 30.1 (3rd)

 

Let's check out Welington Castillo

2017

Framing Runs: 6.8 (18th)

Blocking Runs: 1.3 (16th)

Throwing Runs: 3.2 (3rd)

FRAA_ADJ: 12.4 (9th) 

2019

Framing Runs: -3.5 (81st out of 85)

Blocking Runs: -1 (73rd)

Throwing Runs: 0 (69th)

FRAA_ADJ: -4.7 (82nd out of 85) 

Omar Narvaez 2018

FRAA_ADJ: -15.7 (117th out of 117th)

Omar Narvaez 2017

FRAA_ADJ: -2.1 (71st out of 85)

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

26 minutes ago, bmags said:

When we are discussing Flowers value we are talking about framing almost exclusively. Considering they didn't value it as seen by their replacements for the next several years, and that framing only started to come up around in popular blogs as of 2013, I think it's likely that this is just something that he picked up on and happened to be good at. 

He wasn't good at blocking, he wasn't particularly good at throwing runners out, he was very good at framing.
 

In 2015, Flowers last year with the white sox:

Framing Runs: 19.2 (3rd)

Blocking Runs: -2.8 (107th)

Throwing Runs: -.6 (98th)

FRAA_ADJ: 15.1 (8th best in majors)

In 2017, two years later with braves:

Framing Runs: 32 (1st)

Blocking runs: -.8 (90th)

Throwing Runs: -1.1 (102nd)

FRAA_ADJ: 30.1 (3rd)

 

Let's check out Welington Castillo

2017

Framing Runs: 6.8 (18th)

Blocking Runs: 1.3 (16th)

Throwing Runs: 3.2 (3rd)

FRAA_ADJ: 12.4 (9th) 

2019

Framing Runs: -3.5 (81st out of 85)

Blocking Runs: -1 (73rd)

Throwing Runs: 0 (69th)

FRAA_ADJ: -4.7 (82nd out of 85) 

Omar Narvaez 2018

FRAA_ADJ: -15.7 (117th out of 117th)

Omar Narvaez 2017

FRAA_ADJ: -2.1 (71st out of 85)

 

The Sox development has literally been quoted as saying that framing is a teachable skill. Given that they believe that as an organization, it would be silly to value framing in free agency. If you believe you can teach it, then you should demand less of the skill of your acquisitions. 

Also, you are now changing the basis of your argument. You cited a false claim that I said player development doesnt matter - I've never once said that. I've said that the impact of it is significantly smaller than the generalized assumptions drawn by many posters here.

I'll go on record saying valuing framing highly as an organization would go against my personal beliefs on it. Framing is the exploitation of someone doing their job poorly. It will be removed from the game eventually and there have already been signs this year that guys who graded out well last year could be experiencing bias this year as umpires are being held more and more accountable for these things.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[greg775]

He turns 29 in June. He is a catcher. Modern metrics tells us he will not be signed to any significant extension cause of age.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

31 minutes ago, bmags said:

When we are discussing Flowers value we are talking about framing almost exclusively. Considering they didn't value it as seen by their replacements for the next several years, and that framing only started to come up around in popular blogs as of 2013, I think it's likely that this is just something that he picked up on and happened to be good at. 

He wasn't good at blocking, he wasn't particularly good at throwing runners out, he was very good at framing.
 

In 2015, Flowers last year with the white sox:

Framing Runs: 19.2 (3rd)

Blocking Runs: -2.8 (107th)

Throwing Runs: -.6 (98th)

FRAA_ADJ: 15.1 (8th best in majors)

In 2017, two years later with braves:

Framing Runs: 32 (1st)

Blocking runs: -.8 (90th)

Throwing Runs: -1.1 (102nd)

FRAA_ADJ: 30.1 (3rd)

 

Let's check out Welington Castillo

2017

Framing Runs: 6.8 (18th)

Blocking Runs: 1.3 (16th)

Throwing Runs: 3.2 (3rd)

FRAA_ADJ: 12.4 (9th) 

2019

Framing Runs: -3.5 (81st out of 85)

Blocking Runs: -1 (73rd)

Throwing Runs: 0 (69th)

FRAA_ADJ: -4.7 (82nd out of 85) 

Omar Narvaez 2018

FRAA_ADJ: -15.7 (117th out of 117th)

Omar Narvaez 2017

FRAA_ADJ: -2.1 (71st out of 85)

 

I'll ask you this. Is framing really a skill that holds long-standing value? 

With umpire knowledge and grading, I believe it's a skill that doesn't hold its value.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Sox development has literally been quoted as saying that framing is a teachable skill. Given that they believe that as an organization, it would be silly to value framing in free agency. If you believe you can teach it, then you should demand less of the skill of your acquisitions. 

Also, you are now changing the basis of your argument. You cited a false claim that I said player development doesnt matter - I've never once said that. I've said that the impact of it is significantly smaller than the generalized assumptions drawn by many posters here.

It is a teachable skill. That doesn't mean they are good at teaching it. After all, Castillo learned it, then got here and got way worse. It's almost like they aren't really focused on it!

I am not responding to the second argument because that isn't my argument, but your argument around Omar Narvaez was quite literally players either have it or they don't, and mine was that if you could take him from worst defensive catcher to less bad it was very valuable. Not make him worst defensive catcher to best, just degrees of improvement. So it's cool you refined your point to agree with me.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'll ask you this. Is framing really a skill that holds long-standing value? 

With umpire knowledge and grading, I believe it's a skill that doesn't hold its value.

Organizations should be able to afford to work on maximizing skills even if they are short term. But if you don't value framing then you are basically removing flowers as an example of a developed catcher by the white sox. 

The worst framing catcher is better now at framing than the worst framing catcher in 2009. That saves runs regardless of the fact that he is still the worst.

The sox should strive for more than "better than we used to be, but still worse than the rest of the league". 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Organizations should be able to afford to work on maximizing skills even if they are short term. But if you don't value framing then you are basically removing flowers as an example of a developed catcher by the white sox. 

The worst framing catcher is better now at framing than the worst framing catcher in 2009. That saves runs regardless of the fact that he is still the worst.

The sox should strive for more than "better than we used to be, but still worse than the rest of the league". 

My goodness. Flowers was a counterpoint to a statement questioning the Sox ability to develop a catcher (once again, greatly overvaluing player development as some thing that makes or breaks all players) by pointing to a guy who got statistically better, by a lot, once he entered the Sox organization. I am in no way, shape, nor form stating  that Tyler flowers owes all his progress to the white Sox organization. I was merely stating that if you do believe in the exaggeration of the impact player development has, then you simply cant ignore and discredit what the white Sox did with Tyler flowers.

Hope that clears it up.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

10 minutes ago, bmags said:

It is a teachable skill. That doesn't mean they are good at teaching it. After all, Castillo learned it, then got here and got way worse. It's almost like they aren't really focused on it!

I am not responding to the second argument because that isn't my argument, but your argument around Omar Narvaez was quite literally players either have it or they don't, and mine was that if you could take him from worst defensive catcher to less bad it was very valuable. Not make him worst defensive catcher to best, just degrees of improvement. So it's cool you refined your point to agree with me.

Yes, I dont believe in the validity of pitch framing as its value is derived solely from umpires failures. I also dont believe it's a consistent skill as the variance is through the roof. 

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

My goodness. Flowers was a counterpoint to a statement questioning the Sox ability to develop a catcher (once again, greatly overvaluing player development as some thing that makes or breaks all players) by pointing to a guy who got statistically better, by a lot, once he entered the Sox organization. I am in no way, shape, nor form stating  that Tyler flowers owes all his progress to the white Sox organization. I was merely stating that if you do believe in the exaggeration of the impact player development has, then you simply cant ignore and discredit what the white Sox did with Tyler flowers.

Hope that clears it up.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cubs/ct-spt-cubs-willson-contreras-20190402-story.html
 

White Sox player development relies on hoping players overhear tips from organizations that aren't bad at it:

Quote

Flowers said he didn’t pay much attention to pitch framing until hearing a discussion in the visitors clubhouse at Oriole Park in 2014. The chat raised Flowers’ curiosity, so he asked video coordinator Bryan Johnson to collect data on how he fared.

 

The results were alarming as Flowers, who assumed he would be middle of the pack, ranked 21st out of 32 catchers who caught at least 5,000 pitches that a batter didn’t swing at, according to StatCorner.com.

“I started dissecting the work of guys at the top and starting working at it,” Flowers said.

The 6-foot-4 Flowers initially began to set up behind the plate on one knee to lower his center of gravity and enhance his chances of handling lower pitches.

“I’m trying to work low to high because there’s so much momentum and force from that ball coming down at a downward plane,” Flowers said. “Even when it’s belt high, it’s at a downward plane.”

 

The adjustment helped Flowers vault to the second best among pitch framers with a plus-22.5 runs above average in 2015, compared with his minus-5.6 mark in 2014.

Red Sox All-Star Chris Sale marveled at Flowers’ improvement that started when they were White Sox teammates in 2015.

“If you can get four or five pitches during the course of a game, that can drastically change the game, especially the eighth inning with a 2-2 count with a guy at third base with a big guy up, and you get that strike-three call, that can be the difference in the game,” Sale said. “I think people are starting to put more weight into it and appreciate it more than in the past.”

Flowers has remained in the top five among pitch framers, which is key for pitchers who work the bottom quadrants of the strike zone.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cubs/ct-spt-cubs-willson-contreras-20190402-story.html
 

White Sox player development relies on hoping players overhear tips from organizations that aren't bad at it:

 

My takeway from that is that framing starts with a quiet lower body setup for the catcher.  I don't think that's something you could ever teach Omar as he's just not athletic enough.  Kudos to Flowers for improving so much.

[BackDoorBreach]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The bat is just a bonus with McCann. 

If he was batting his usual .230-.240 there would be serious pearl clutching going on.  He is not some pitch framing genie.  He is, and has been, a competant back up catcher.  Giving this guy millions of extra money when we don't need to is retarded. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

32 minutes ago, bmags said:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cubs/ct-spt-cubs-willson-contreras-20190402-story.html
 

White Sox player development relies on hoping players overhear tips from organizations that aren't bad at it:

 

Sounds to me like he learned the same way a lot of players learn... from each other. 

Then he told the Soxs analytical and video guys he was interested and they supplied him with the necessary information required to better himself.

That's how most players get better - through a want-to.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

22 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

If he was batting his usual .230-.240 there would be serious pearl clutching going on.  He is not some pitch framing genie.  He is, and has been, a competant back up catcher.  Giving this guy millions of extra money when we don't need to is retarded. 

McCann is clearly a very good defensive catcher and game caller. He does the work most people never see.

If you want to know how good a catcher is, ask his pitchers... nothing more.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run