23 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Saves are stupid.  You lose credibility thinking it's a meaningful stat.

Gee...I wonder why they record them.

On 6/18/2019 at 8:37 AM, yesterday333 said:

Greg and Vile... do you guys not understand sacrificing something that is OK in the present for something really good in the future? Fighting for 500 is ok but trying to get good players for when we are good is worth the sacrifice for most fans.

I do not understand and never will. "Flipping Colome" does nothing for me. He's having a good year. I'd like him to keep saving games for the Sox. I love how modern statpeeps now say the save is a meaningless stats. I guess only WAR really matters right? How un-fun baseball is becoming. And if saves mean nothing why would anybody give up anything for Colome? Tell me his secondary stats that are so tradeably great, I'm sure you will and I'm sure they are there.

But no ... I see no reason to trade him so we can add some pieces to our future team. I don't care. I care about winning now and in the future.

Colome has been very good for us.  He will get a hefty raise for that next year, I will guess at least to 10-12 million.  We can afford it.  His numbers indicate he "is what he has been" which is a consistently good reliever (consistent is not necessarily common).  You absolutely trade him if the right package is offered which should be higher than what we would have taken 3 years ago where you trade everyone for something and hope it sticks.  If you don't get what you want would/should he be a guy you offer to extend?  Arbitration heavily rewards saves and "counting" stats.  3/24-27?  If you are thinking that is to high, you shouldn't be arguing he shouldn't be traded.

10 minutes ago, BamaDoc said:

Colome has been very good for us.  He will get a hefty raise for that next year, I will guess at least to 10-12 million.  We can afford it.  His numbers indicate he "is what he has been" which is a consistently good reliever (consistent is not necessarily common).  You absolutely trade him if the right package is offered which should be higher than what we would have taken 3 years ago where you trade everyone for something and hope it sticks.  If you don't get what you want would/should he be a guy you offer to extend?  Arbitration heavily rewards saves and "counting" stats.  3/24-27?  If you are thinking that is to high, you shouldn't be arguing he shouldn't be traded.

Not even arbitrators care that much about saves. He'll be around $9 million next year. If he files for $11 million he'll lose. $9 million is more than he'd get on the open market (per year), but that's ok, money doesn't mean that much to the White Sox right now, they won't spend it on anyone better. 

Last year he had 12 saves ERA around 3, WHIP about 1 and he got a raise from 5.3 to 7.3 million.  This year already 16 saves, 2.15 ERA, WHIP .7    If he maintains those numbers he is going to get a big raise.  By WAR he has reached last year at like 1.3.  So if he maintains this pace he should be maybe 2 plus WAR........What does analytics value one WAR, by WAR he gets well beyond what I mentioned

4 hours ago, poppysox said:

Gee...I wonder why they record them.

Why do IBB count against a pitcher's BB count?

 

12 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

See, this is where we really, really disagree. 16 for 16 in saves is not just "OK" in the present. It's outstanding. You guys who keep describing Colome as a "2nd tier" closer or that he's only above average and only been lucky so far, your argument loses all credibility on that statement. As soon as you make a statement like that, your logic is obviously wrong and your point of trading Colome is lost. 

Only Hand and Colome among Mlb leaders don't have a blown save yet. That's clearly better than "OK". The odds that this "really good in the future" ever would be better and more helpful to the White Sox than Colome is in the present seems very low, very low indeed. 

Seriously, what are the odds that whomever we get for Colome will ever be one of the top two or three at their position (in this case closer)  by the time of the all-star game ? I would say well below 20%. On the other hand, it's possible that whomever we get for Colome will never even make it to the majors. I would say the odds are above 20%

So why trade a guy who is sooo helpful to the team now and into the future for a guy whom the odds are will never help the MLB club as much is Colome is doing now, and for whom there's a real possiblity that this traded for player might never make the majors. 

People on this board keep asking how are we almost at .500 with our starting pitching being so weak. Yes, the bats are better than last year, but the biggest improvement over last year is our bullpen and Colome is the # 1 factor of our improved bullpen. Why trade that away for a player who might make the majors and who is very, very doubtful to ever help the Sox as much as Colome has so far and will continue to do into the future. 

I am not calling colome ok. A 500 record is ok. As nice as it is to win some games now, if it can help have a great team for a long time that is better... I don’t see why you don’t understand sacrificing a few wins on a 500 team to win more than that in the future is a good idea.

5 hours ago, yesterday333 said:

I don’t see why you don’t understand sacrificing a few wins on a 500 team to win more than that in the future is a good idea.

This is why guys like Hahn (prior to Eloy's emergence) still has a job. A good majority of fans like losing and tanking. Of course I've changed my opinion on Hahn since it's obvious he got one of the best hitters ever (if he can stay healthy) in Eloy. But tanking is so great for GMs. Gives them year after year of losing with fans not upset. Got to win, baby, as Al Davis said.

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

This is why guys like Hahn (prior to Eloy's emergence) still has a job. A good majority of fans like losing and tanking. Of course I've changed my opinion on Hahn since it's obvious he got one of the best hitters ever (if he can stay healthy) in Eloy. But tanking is so great for GMs. Gives them year after year of losing with fans not upset. Got to win, baby, as Al Davis said.

16 hours ago, poppysox said:

Gee...I wonder why they record them.

Baseball records a lot of dumb stuff

5 hours ago, yesterday333 said:

I am not calling colome ok. A 500 record is ok. As nice as it is to win some games now, if it can help have a great team for a long time that is better... I don’t see why you don’t understand sacrificing a few wins on a 500 team to win more than that in the future is a good idea.

But Colome can help us have a great team for several more years and there's no gamble there. He's pretty much a sure thing, not some prospect who may or may not work out.

Pay him when it's time and keep him into the future. How far into the future is your future?  Does it go beyond three or four years from now?

1 minute ago, vilehoopster said:

But Colome can help us have a great team for several more years and there's no gamble there. He's pretty much a sure thing, not some prospect who may or may not work out.

Pay him when it's time and keep him into the future. How far into the future is your future?  Does it go beyond three or four years from now?

Unless your name is Mariano Rivera, relievers are never a sure thing. 

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

But Colome can help us have a great team for several more years and there's no gamble there. He's pretty much a sure thing, not some prospect who may or may not work out.

Pay him when it's time and keep him into the future. How far into the future is your future?  Does it go beyond three or four years from now?

Or trade him for a prospect and then replace next offseason in free agency.

8 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

But Colome can help us have a great team for several more years and there's no gamble there. He's pretty much a sure thing, not some prospect who may or may not work out.

Pay him when it's time and keep him into the future. How far into the future is your future?  Does it go beyond three or four years from now?

He is a FA after next year. What if he doesn’t want to stay here? 

Jordan Hicks has a torn UCL so add the Cardinals to the list.

Edited June 24, 20196 yr by Sockin

5 minutes ago, Sockin said:

Jordan Hicks has a torn UCL so add the Cardinals to the list.

Would be nice if the Cards can hang on in the race enough to feel compelled to make a move for a closer. I imagine they will stay in the race in the crowded NLC and certainly the WC.  Will they feel the need to add a closer as this doesn't feel like a move to put them over the top to win a World Series but rather fill a roster hole in order to stay competing.

One thing working in our favor with Hicks presumably getting TJS soon, he's likely out through next season which could make Colome intriguing to them as he has team control through 2020.  

Does Dylan Carlson make sense as a return? #2 Cards prospect, #88 in MLB. Switch hitting OF, profiles as a RF with limited speed but has a 55 field grade.  Projects well from both sides of the plate, throws left-handed in the OF. Currently OPS .856 at AA at age 20. I think the Sox would love this return, would Cards make this deal?

Could be our 3rd "Dylan C." Joining Covey and Cease!

There's no reason to believe that Colome will be good in perpetuity.  

Sell high and trade him.

31 minutes ago, KrankinSox said:

Would be nice if the Cards can hang on in the race enough to feel compelled to make a move for a closer. I imagine they will stay in the race in the crowded NLC and certainly the WC.  Will they feel the need to add a closer as this doesn't feel like a move to put them over the top to win a World Series but rather fill a roster hole in order to stay competing.

One thing working in our favor with Hicks presumably getting TJS soon, he's likely out through next season which could make Colome intriguing to them as he has team control through 2020.  

Does Dylan Carlson make sense as a return? #2 Cards prospect, #88 in MLB. Switch hitting OF, profiles as a RF with limited speed but has a 55 field grade.  Projects well from both sides of the plate, throws left-handed in the OF. Currently OPS .856 at AA at age 20. I think the Sox would love this return, would Cards make this deal?

Could be our 3rd "Dylan C." Joining Covey and Cease!

I would love for the Sox to flip Colome for Carlson. On top of the fielding grades you listed and being a switch hitter, he has had over a 10% BB Rate, K Rate around 18% the last 2 seasons, ISO over .200 in AA as a 20 year old, 129 wRC+. That would potentially fix the RF hole the Sox have. 

Sox Potential 2021 Lineup

CF - Robert (R)

3B - Moncada (S)

LF - Eloy (R)

1B/DH - Vaughn (R)

C - McCann (R) or FA

C/DH/1B - Collins (L)

SS - TA (R)

2B - Madrigal (R)

RF - Carlson (S)

 

1 hour ago, KrankinSox said:

Would be nice if the Cards can hang on in the race enough to feel compelled to make a move for a closer. I imagine they will stay in the race in the crowded NLC and certainly the WC.  Will they feel the need to add a closer as this doesn't feel like a move to put them over the top to win a World Series but rather fill a roster hole in order to stay competing.

One thing working in our favor with Hicks presumably getting TJS soon, he's likely out through next season which could make Colome intriguing to them as he has team control through 2020.  

Does Dylan Carlson make sense as a return? #2 Cards prospect, #88 in MLB. Switch hitting OF, profiles as a RF with limited speed but has a 55 field grade.  Projects well from both sides of the plate, throws left-handed in the OF. Currently OPS .856 at AA at age 20. I think the Sox would love this return, would Cards make this deal?

Could be our 3rd "Dylan C." Joining Covey and Cease!

Cards just lost their closer for the season today with a torn UCL.

2 hours ago, GreenSox said:

There's no reason to believe that Colome will be good in perpetuity.  

Sell high and trade him.

He had 37 saves in 2016 and 46 in 2017. He was replaced as the closer in Seattle  by Diaz last year and still had 12 saves last year. There's no reason to believe he can't keep doing what he's been doing this year for the Sox. Keep him and don't trade him for a 88 rated prospect who's in AA. You want to trade a guy who is 16 for 16 in saves for only an 88 prospect?

I keep bringing this up but Blake Rutherford was rated higher than that when we traded for him, how's that looking. You don't win by trading your good players. 

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Cards just lost their closer for the season today with a torn UCL.

I believe that was the entire point of the post you replied to. Jordan Hicks was their closer.

3 hours ago, Sox Fan In Husker Land said:

I would love for the Sox to flip Colome for Carlson. On top of the fielding grades you listed and being a switch hitter, he has had over a 10% BB Rate, K Rate around 18% the last 2 seasons, ISO over .200 in AA as a 20 year old, 129 wRC+. That would potentially fix the RF hole the Sox have. 

Sox Potential 2021 Lineup

CF - Robert (R)

3B - Moncada (S)

LF - Eloy (R)

1B/DH - Vaughn (R)

C - McCann (R) or FA

C/DH/1B - Collins (L)

SS - TA (R)

2B - Madrigal (R)

RF - Carlson (S)

 

I’d trade Colome for Carlson as well.  Carlson looks like he’s hitting for more power this year and his walk/strikeout rate is improving.  He’s only 20, a switch hitter, and is currently hitting well at AA.  It doesn’t hurt that he has been developed in the Cardinals organization either.  He is likely around the same ETA as Robert and Madrigal.  I’d love to add him for RF.  His prospect ranking is probably due to rise a bit from #88 but maybe he would be a realistic target for 1.5 years of Colome.

Edited June 25, 20196 yr by Moan4Yoan

50 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I’d trade Colome for Carlson as well.  Carlson looks like he’s hitting for more power this year and his walk/strikeout rate is improving.  He’s only 20, a switch hitter, and is currently hitting well at AA.  It doesn’t hurt that he has been developed in the Cardinals organization either.  He is likely around the same ETA as Robert and Madrigal.  I’d love to add him for RF.  His prospect ranking is probably due to rise a bit from #88 but maybe he would be a realistic target for 1.5 years of Colome.

Don't look now but Blake Rutherford is starting to produce at AA. Doesn't lead me to shy away from Carlson though. If they both succeed,  it's a good problem to have.

Really would love to add another OF or SP top 100 type for Colome if we could.

2 minutes ago, KrankinSox said:

Don't look now but Blake Rutherford is starting to produce at AA. Doesn't lead me to shy away from Carlson though. If they both succeed,  it's a good problem to have.

Really would love to add another OF or SP top 100 type for Colome if we could.

Still showing no power.  I’m out on Rutherford.

2 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

He had 37 saves in 2016 and 46 in 2017. He was replaced as the closer in Seattle  by Diaz last year and still had 12 saves last year. There's no reason to believe he can't keep doing what he's been doing this year for the Sox. Keep him and don't trade him for a 88 rated prospect who's in AA. You want to trade a guy who is 16 for 16 in saves for only an 88 prospect?

I keep bringing this up but Blake Rutherford was rated higher than that when we traded for him, how's that looking. You don't win by trading your good players. 

If you can get a top 100 prospect you do it in a heartbeat.  He can replaced next offseason with all the cash we have.