1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

McCann's definitely been a good signing, but we only have control of him for 1 more season. So far the org seems to have no idea what they're doing with Collins, so McCann and Narvaez as the catching spot in 2020 would have made for a really strong tandem behind the plate if McCann can keep this up while still giving Narvaez a chance to grow, which he has done this year. You could then either give McCann a $30 million contract as a free agent after 2020 if he keeps this up or look for a cheaper option if Narvaez improves. 

It's a big loss to give up 5 years of a young catcher to get 2 years of a closer, when 1 of those years your team isn't even close to competitive, and when your team has enough money to sign 4 different closer candidates if they want to. 

Narvaez sucks at catching, have you ever actually watched him play?

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Narvaez wasn’t a high price at the time.

Well, considering he represents the only 2.0-3.0ish position player we've developed internally within the last half decade...not sure what that says.  Nothing good.

(Someone will mention Yolmer, but that's clearly not the case as of 2019.)

 

Let's just call Omar Narvaez the Franmil Reyes of catching, then...to put it in proper perspective.   His bat is creating X amount of positive value, compared to those numbers coming from LF/RF/1B/DH.

Edited July 31, 20196 yr by caulfield12

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, considering he represents the only 2.0-3.0ish position player we've developed internally within the last half decade...not sure what that says.  Nothing good.

(Someone will mention Yolmer, but that's clearly not the case as of 2019.)

What?  He wasn’t a 2 to 3 win player with us and I guess Tim Anderson doesn’t count for some reason.

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What?  He wasn’t a 2 to 3 win player with us and I guess Tim Anderson doesn’t count for some reason.

Well, who exactly is to blame for that?

Anderson is at 7.9bWAR and 5.8fWAR for his 4 years with the White Sox.   I guess you can divide by 3.66 if you want.   Still not going to get to 2.

Edited July 31, 20196 yr by caulfield12

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, who exactly is to blame for that?

Anderson is at 7.9bWAR and 5.8fWAR for his 4 years with the White Sox.   I guess you can divide by 3.66 if you want.   Still not going to get to 2.

Good god man you are ridiculous at times.

Wow! I'm shocked. Was so looking forward to checking in and seeing who we got for Colome and upon reviewing MLB.com there must be a mistake. Guessing Colome just not highly regarded. Can't imagine Hahn was asking for the moon. Very disappointing.

15 minutes ago, Flash said:

Wow! I'm shocked. Was so looking forward to checking in and seeing who we got for Colome and upon reviewing MLB.com there must be a mistake. Guessing Colome just not highly regarded. Can't imagine Hahn was asking for the moon. Very disappointing.

RH made the decision to ask for and receive the moon or use Colome for our own run in 2020.  Seems reasonable to me.  Don't get me wrong...I wanted in on the action but RH is probably right in this inaction.

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

RH made the decision to ask for and receive the moon or use Colome for our own run in 2020.  Seems reasonable to me.  Don't get me wrong...I wanted in on the action but RH is probably right in this inaction.

Or no one ponied up. I would be surprised if he asked for the moon. If he did, he miscalculated.

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Considering how many people said "I'll hold off on saying Narvaez for Colome was a bad deal until I see what we get for Colome at the deadline", even if holding him was the right move there are some people who said they'd be mad if exactly this happened.

I’d rather have Narvaez back than Colome for one more year, especially since McCann’s bat is faceplanting to the core of the earth.

4 hours ago, kevo880 said:

I think that's a cop out though. Injuries happen. If you take the top 3 players off any team then that team isn't going to be as good. Yes, injuries will happen.

Unless you are the Yankees.

1 hour ago, SCCWS said:

Unless you are the Yankees.

There are at least 7-8 organizations that fit such a description...

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

There are at least 7-8 organizations that fit such a description...

There may be. But we saw the  first half Yankees lose both multiple positional players(Ggregorius, Judge, Stanton, Gardner etc) and several SP all at the same time.  But they patched their way to a solid record. 

On 7/31/2019 at 6:07 PM, Flash said:

Wow! I'm shocked. Was so looking forward to checking in and seeing who we got for Colome and upon reviewing MLB.com there must be a mistake. Guessing Colome just not highly regarded. Can't imagine Hahn was asking for the moon. Very disappointing.

This is a fair post I feel.

On 7/31/2019 at 4:26 PM, poppysox said:

RH made the decision to ask for and receive the moon or use Colome for our own run in 2020.  Seems reasonable to me.  Don't get me wrong...I wanted in on the action but RH is probably right in this inaction.

agreed

On 7/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Moan4Yoan said:

I’d rather have Narvaez back than Colome for one more year, especially since McCann’s bat is faceplanting to the core of the earth.

I'd just assume move on from Narvaez and reup McCann as soon as possible. McCann brings so much more to this team than just his bat.  Handling pitchers...great clubhouse guy...etc.  Hell Gardenhire even laments what a mistake it was letting him walk.  If we're going to be relying on young pitchers next year like Cease and Koepech...I want Narvaez nowhere near them.

On 7/31/2019 at 5:24 PM, Chicago White Sox said:

Narvaez wasn’t a high price at the time.

He certainly was.  2nd to best Sox hitter last season, clearly on the improve.  This "Bad framing" was suspicious; as per once he leaves Cooper and his pitchers it's suddenly decent.

And even if he wasn't a high price at the time, this is yet another example of "who could have known."  It's Hahn's job to know.  I can't think of a single trade for a veteran that he's made that was an overall positive.

3 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

He certainly was.  2nd to best Sox hitter last season, clearly on the improve.  This "Bad framing" was suspicious; as per once he leaves Cooper and his pitchers it's suddenly decent.

And even if he wasn't a high price at the time, this is yet another example of "who could have known."  It's Hahn's job to know.  I can't think of a single trade for a veteran that he's made that was an overall positive.

Narvaez had a very flukey offensive season in 2018 and was a terrible defensive catcher.  If he was a desirable commodity, someone would have given up much more than Alex Colome.  And no, his framing isn’t suddenly decent.  He’s still a terrible defensive catcher all around.

As for his offensive numbers this year, his quality of contact continues to suck.  His flukey power numbers have started trending down significantly and right now he’s relying on an unsustainable BABIP (his xBA is 40 points high then his actual BA) to inflate his season totals.  Dude has always had a strong eye at the plate which allows him to be a league average bat.  The problem is that’s not very valuable when are a horrible defensive catcher.

6 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Narvaez had a very flukey offensive season in 2018 and was a terrible defensive catcher.  If he was a desirable commodity, someone would have given up much more than Alex Colome.  And no, his framing isn’t suddenly decent.  He’s still a terrible defensive catcher all around.

As for his offensive numbers this year, his quality of contact continues to suck.  His flukey power numbers have started trending down significantly and right now he’s relying on an unsustainable BABIP (his xBA is 40 points high then his actual BA) to inflate his season totals.  Dude has always had a strong eye at the plate which allows him to be a league average bat.  The problem is that’s not very valuable when are a horrible defensive catcher.

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13338&position=C

His offense has improve for three consecutive years and defense has worsened...that said, there’s no guarantee McCann will even be a 1.5 fWAR catcher when he was net negative his four prior seasons in Detroit, or that Colome can sustain this level of success.

On 7/31/2019 at 3:30 PM, Chicago White Sox said:

Narvaez sucks at catching, have you ever actually watched him play?

It is curious though that some of the decisions the Sox made on youngish players didn't work out all that well. I know many hate the catching abilities of Narvaez and hated Avi but they both have had decent seasons. Narvaez  certainly was trending upwards when the the Sox traded him. Instead many thought we were selling high and thought he'd trend downward. He certainly had a good approach and his OBP clearly is a need on the Sox.

Don't get me wrong I'm good with the trade. I too hated his defense but I wasn't convinced the Sox were selling high as many were. The Sox shouldnt be selling off pieces like that especially when they were light of OBP players and light on LH bats and he had improved offensively a few years in a row.. Same with Avi . They could've resigned him to the type of contract TB did because he had one great year  no matter how lucky anyone thinks he was that year he was a proven talent.

They got rid of guys in positions they still have black holes in which is OBP guys, LH quality bat and RF. How can I trust scouting and talent evaluation when they can't even evaluate their own that well ? They gave up so far 3 WAR (combined Narvaez and Avi ) and 4? years of  control on Narvaez for 2 years of Colome in years they probably don't make the playoffs.

There is way more to a catcher than his framing. People in the org are raving anout McCann‘s prep work and rapport while not su subtly throwing Castillo and prior catchers under the bus. McCann is also far superior at blocking pitches.

 

Shame that the Sox are running him into the ground by having him play virtually every day.

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It is curious though that some of the decisions the Sox made on youngish players didn't work out all that well. I know many hate the catching abilities of Narvaez and hated Avi but they both have had decent seasons. Narvaez  certainly was trending upwards when the the Sox traded him. Instead many thought we were selling high and thought he'd trend downward. He certainly had a good approach and his OBP clearly is a need on the Sox.

Don't get me wrong I'm good with the trade. I too hated his defense but I wasn't convinced the Sox were selling high as many were. The Sox shouldnt be selling off pieces like that especially when they were light of OBP players and light on LH bats and he had improved offensively a few years in a row.. Same with Avi . They could've resigned him to the type of contract TB did because he had one great year  no matter how lucky anyone thinks he was that year he was a proven talent.

They got rid of guys in positions they still have black holes in which is OBP guys, LH quality bat and RF. How can I trust scouting and talent evaluation when they can't even evaluate their own that well ? They gave up so far 3 WAR (combined Narvaez and Avi ) and 4? years of  control on Narvaez for 2 years of Colome in years they probably don't make the playoffs.

Or assessing Alonso vs. Nelson Cruz, who has outproduced him (Yonder’s entire season) in just two games over the course of last ten days.

How do the Twins get almost all of their offseason moves right and we only got McCann and Colome as useful pieces out of $30 million in additions?

Edited August 4, 20196 yr by caulfield12

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Or assessing Alonso vs. Nelson Cruz, who has outproduced him (Yonder’s entire season) in just two games over the course of last ten days.

How do the Twins get almost all of their offseason moves right and we only got McCann and Colome as useful pieces out of $30 million in additions?

They didnt assess Alonso over Cruz . You know it was purely about Machado as was Jay and perhaps Nova Castillo . Was it Colome that played on the WBC team with Machado ?

12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

They didnt assess Alonso over Cruz . You know it was purely about Machado as was Jay and perhaps Nova Castillo . Was it Colome that played on the WBC team with Machado ?

Colome or Castillo...possibly Herrera.

Ironically, Cruz is also Dominican, a former teammate of Machado’s, and a borderline HoF career statistically.

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Colome or Castillo...possibly Herrera.

Ironically, Cruz is also Dominican, a former teammate of Machado’s, and a borderline HoF career statistically.

Yea Castillo and Colome were on the DR WBC team with him and Alonso brother in law and Jay personal friend. So if the Sox were truly preparing to add Machado for 2 years  that is the way they went about it. Cruz was also a teammate on that WBC so the only reason they might've wanted Alonso since he was left handed and could play 1st base and was a part of Machado's inner circle. . As far as talent goes Cruz who was (surprise } more expensive but way more talented.

So it turned out to be add 4 family, friends ,teammates,Dominicans while also underbidding on him while also throwing in a Frank Thomas diminished skills clause in the guise of games played clause. Still doing business the risk adverse way even with a top young talent at the top of his game who also stays on the field all year long.

Its the Sox way to half-ass everything and people wonder why anyone has doubts about adding the right talent or offering the right contract or even presenting themselves in a way that doesn't look imcompetent.

On 8/4/2019 at 4:10 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

They didnt assess Alonso over Cruz . You know it was purely about Machado as was Jay and perhaps Nova Castillo . Was it Colome that played on the WBC team with Machado ?

Jay and Nova are what we thought they would be.  Colome and McCann have been pleasant surprises.  Only Alonso crapped the bed.