Player dev is the new moneyball and some teams are quite ahead of the league.

The sox haven't been good at this but the positive is that the sox have hired some more data driven guys like lisle or that johansen guy in the last years which means they are aware they need change.

The negative are reports saying that the old school guys are still pretty much in power and while the sox have some smart guys the coaches don't always tend to listen to them.

How can this be resolved? Imo the sox need to hire a powerful and strong data guy as a development coordinator, this needs to be done top down. Kyle boddy would have been ideal but he is with the reds now.

I think hahn wants to get more modern but in the sox org it isn't always about merits and often about networking and tenure.

I think this needs to be done top down. Hahn was probably thinking he could hire some guys and like that bring in the analytics backdoor but the old school guys tend to stand together and fight against that because they know their jobs are in danger.

The astros and now also the Orioles have combatted that by mass firings of old school scouts and coaches and getting more nerd type of  coaches instead of ex players.

Do the sox need to go there or is there a softer way of implementing that?

Well, I would say Vizquel being pushed out is some indication that they are trying to align minor leagues to their analytics and PD team.

But every team is doing that. I think Getz is legitimately trying to do all the right things but it's just not done at nearly the urgency it should have. As soon as Sale was traded they should have done a complete overhaul knowing that their future rested on young players yet to be developed.

Years ago I advocated for a complete revamping of our entire system.  I advocated for paying Vanderbilts coach Tim Corbin whatever it took for him to implement all through our system.  Hell I would have let him manage eventually if that was needed to seal the deal.   I felt the top college programs were way ahead in terms of scouting and development.  Every year many of the best players/recruits get snagged by MLB  and colleges have to turn to plan B and/or develop guys.  Vanderbilt is at a huge competitive disadvantage from a cost standpoint.  For those unaware, most college baseball guys are on fractions of a scholarship due to title 9.  If a instate college tuition is 15k and Vandy is 50k, the amount a player's family must come up with if each offer 1/3 of a scholarship is huge(10 vs 34) per year.  Some lottery states have free tuition.  They don't wave academic requirements.  Despite the disadvantages, Vandy is a premier program every year.  Now you see pitching coaches being hired by MLB big clubs from college programs.  Former Vandy pitching coach fixed Sonny Gray(Vandy) at Cincinnati last year.  We could have been something cutting edge as I advocated a lot of college coaches/scouts throughout the minors in player development not just the good old boy network.  Also because colleges have smaller staff, but were ahead of MLB in technology, those college coaches learned how to communicate it to players better.  So players heard it from a coach not a analytic office nerd who never played.  Those guys bridged the gap.  It kills me to think where we would be.  Other teams trying to copy how we are cutting edge.  Sorry, I have to go cry.......

1 hour ago, BamaDoc said:

Years ago I advocated for a complete revamping of our entire system.  I advocated for paying Vanderbilts coach Tim Corbin whatever it took for him to implement all through our system.  Hell I would have let him manage eventually if that was needed to seal the deal.   I felt the top college programs were way ahead in terms of scouting and development.  Every year many of the best players/recruits get snagged by MLB  and colleges have to turn to plan B and/or develop guys.  Vanderbilt is at a huge competitive disadvantage from a cost standpoint.  For those unaware, most college baseball guys are on fractions of a scholarship due to title 9.  If a instate college tuition is 15k and Vandy is 50k, the amount a player's family must come up with if each offer 1/3 of a scholarship is huge(10 vs 34) per year.  Some lottery states have free tuition.  They don't wave academic requirements.  Despite the disadvantages, Vandy is a premier program every year.  Now you see pitching coaches being hired by MLB big clubs from college programs.  Former Vandy pitching coach fixed Sonny Gray(Vandy) at Cincinnati last year.  We could have been something cutting edge as I advocated a lot of college coaches/scouts throughout the minors in player development not just the good old boy network.  Also because colleges have smaller staff, but were ahead of MLB in technology, those college coaches learned how to communicate it to players better.  So players heard it from a coach not a analytic office nerd who never played.  Those guys bridged the gap.  It kills me to think where we would be.  Other teams trying to copy how we are cutting edge.  Sorry, I have to go cry.......

While I agree with all of the baseball information, the title 9 is wholly inaccurate. They get partial scholarships just like the female athletes because football and basketball eat up all of the money. The justification is that they are the revenue generating sports. Which if is their reason, baseball would not get any more money even if title 9 didn't give female athletes money. 

Didn't mean to derail but this topic always gets my going.

2 hours ago, BamaDoc said:

Years ago I advocated for a complete revamping of our entire system.  I advocated for paying Vanderbilts coach Tim Corbin whatever it took for him to implement all through our system.  Hell I would have let him manage eventually if that was needed to seal the deal.   I felt the top college programs were way ahead in terms of scouting and development.  Every year many of the best players/recruits get snagged by MLB  and colleges have to turn to plan B and/or develop guys.  Vanderbilt is at a huge competitive disadvantage from a cost standpoint.  For those unaware, most college baseball guys are on fractions of a scholarship due to title 9.  If a instate college tuition is 15k and Vandy is 50k, the amount a player's family must come up with if each offer 1/3 of a scholarship is huge(10 vs 34) per year.  Some lottery states have free tuition.  They don't wave academic requirements.  Despite the disadvantages, Vandy is a premier program every year.  Now you see pitching coaches being hired by MLB big clubs from college programs.  Former Vandy pitching coach fixed Sonny Gray(Vandy) at Cincinnati last year.  We could have been something cutting edge as I advocated a lot of college coaches/scouts throughout the minors in player development not just the good old boy network.  Also because colleges have smaller staff, but were ahead of MLB in technology, those college coaches learned how to communicate it to players better.  So players heard it from a coach not a analytic office nerd who never played.  Those guys bridged the gap.  It kills me to think where we would be.  Other teams trying to copy how we are cutting edge.  Sorry, I have to go cry.......

It's especially wild because Dick WIlliams did not have this rep at all, then he goes and gets Boddy and the Vandy coach.

 

5 hours ago, bmags said:

Well, I would say Vizquel being pushed out is some indication that they are trying to align minor leagues to their analytics and PD team.

IFF that's the reason they fired him.  
There's been some talk, but I haven't seen much objective and tangible evidence that this org. is very interested in analytics.

 

OMMFG. 

 

It's too bad that most of that talent manifested itself elsewhere(Semien, Voldemort, Bassit, Devenski) 

 

However, between Sale and Abreu alone, it would have to be pretty high. 

Edited December 31, 20196 yr by Jack Parkman

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

 

OMMFG. 

 

It's too bad that most of that talent manifested itself elsewhere(Semien, Voldemort, Bassit, Devenski) 

 

However, between Sale and Abreu alone, it would have to be pretty high. 

It includes:

2010: Chris Sale, Addison Reed, Tyler SAladino, Jacob Petricka

2011: Marcus Semien, Kevan Smith, Chris Bassit, Chris Devenski

2012: Brandon Brennan, Micah Johnson

2013: Tim Anderson, Adam Engel

2014: Carlos Rodon, Jace Fry, Aaron Bummer

2015: Carson Fulmer, Seby Zavala, Danny Mendick

2016: Zack Collins, Ian Hamilton. 

It counts Jose Abreu, Fernando Tatis Jr and Yolmer Sanchez as well. 

They'll get credit for: Luis Robert, Zack Burdi, Jimmy Lambert, Bernardo Flores, Matt Foster, Gavin Sheets, Luis Gonzalez, Tyler Johnson, Wil Kincanon, NIck Madrigal, Steele Walker, Konnor Pilkington, Jonathan Stiever, Andrew Vaughn and anyone else who makes the majors as well. 

Well, I'll be damned.

Jose Martinez didn’t make the cut due to the 2000’s cutoff, but he had a nice little career renaissance as well.  Eduardo Escobar similarly falls into that category...where all their impact has been in 2000’s.

It’s also not counting Montas, Junior Guerra...players that slipped through our fingers.  Of course, conversely, the Mets get credit for Jose Quintana.

Edited January 1, 20206 yr by caulfield12

15 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Jose Martinez didn’t make the cut due to the 2000’s cutoff, but he had a nice little career renaissance as well.  Eduardo Escobar similarly falls into that category...where all their impact has been in 2000’s.

It’s also not counting Montas, Junior Guerra...players that slipped through our fingers.  Of course, conversely, the Mets get credit for Jose Quintana.

That's the problem:  Escobar, Semien, Tatis, Devenski and Bassit were traded away for virtually nothing - and there was no real upside possibility in any of those trades.  Escobar, Tatis, And Devenski were dumped in silly acts of FO desperation.  Reed and Montas (and of course Sale) were traded away, but at least there was some logic and good-faith behind the trades.
and most of those guys were picked in the first 1/2 of the decade.

It's a surprising list, with the Astors, Mets and Jays making the playoffs (and more), while the Sox hold hands with the Marlins.
 

Edited January 1, 20206 yr by GreenSox

17 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Jose Martinez didn’t make the cut due to the 2000’s cutoff, but he had a nice little career renaissance as well.  Eduardo Escobar similarly falls into that category...where all their impact has been in 2000’s.

It’s also not counting Montas, Junior Guerra...players that slipped through our fingers.  Of course, conversely, the Mets get credit for Jose Quintana.

Montas would be calculated for the Red Sox since they were the team that signed him. 

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Montas would be calculated for the Red Sox since they were the team that signed him. 

Sure, but more often that not, we’ve misjudged or not developed the talent we had in our organization before moving them elsewhere.

It’s one thing KW was really good at in the mid to late 2000’s.  Players like Quentin, Floyd, Danks, Ramirez, deAza, Eaton, Santos and Quintana that were undervalued by other organizations.  Abreu would be the last one, as that was more a transaction pushed by KW and Paddy.

The crazy thing is we might end up as #1-5 on Latin America talent as well because of Tatis, Ramirez, Abreu and Robert...but we’ve been terrible overall in that area and still don’t have even a solid operation in the Dominican after a decade.  Every plus comes with a “well/and/but/asterisk.”

Stunned

Btw a lot of the war is sale but that is pretty normal. I heard in a podcast that trout produced more war in the decade than like half of the farm systems. 

1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

Btw a lot of the war is sale but that is pretty normal. I heard in a podcast that trout produced more war in the decade than like half of the farm systems. 

Interesting.  Would be cool to sort it for non-allstar war or something more related to depth.  Picks like Trout or Bryant are just luck basically.  

Driveline has ranked the sox player development dead last in mlb 2012-2019

https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2019/04/finding-star-nothing-luck-quantifying-effectiveness-mlb-player-development/

 

 

 

The Cubs literally hired a clown show.