5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The real problem isn’t Mazara.

It’s pitching.  If Minnesota makes the right move for Bumgarner, Ryu or Keuchel...it’s going to make it that much more difficult to overtake them before 2022/23.

You think if one of those guys is acquired by the twins, it will not only negate Mazara but also the rest of the entire roster for three seasons?

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

That’s not going to happen, either.  A platoon outfielder shouldn’t be getting any more than Castellanos or Ozuna.

That said, if those two guys are off the market, an aging Brantley and Pederson will be the only non-trade options.  And Brantleys not especially well-suited for RF, either.

Oh, so you then agree that we should just sign somebody at the same price that can hit both LH and RH pitching?

If by the all-star break, Madrigal and Robert are both up with the Sox, Mazara is essentially the least-worst guy in a lineup with few if any holes. 

 

I think this move is essentially "shitty on paper" because the Sox need 3 starting pitchers, and signed or traded for none.

Why the hell would we use an old ass prospect list to infer anything about Mazara in 2020?  He has a fucking baseball card full of shitty stats at the MLB level.  For every talented former prospect with his track record that turns into a productive MLB player there are 50 that never do.  You guys really think the Sox have the scouting and instruction to beat those odds?

Good luck.  This is a horrible move that highlights the worst aspects of Chicago's FO from ownership to the GM to the scouting guys.

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Well if any other teams were convinced Mazara is on the verge of a breakout (you know teams with much better scouting than Chicago) how come nobody was willing to pony up more than their equivalent of Steele Walker?

Crickets.  Because he sucks.  Because nobody else wanted to take this guy off Texas' hands for any assets other than cash and A ball relievers.

That's kinda defeatist circular thinking, isn't it?  You could say the same thing about any move the Sox make, no matter what.  "Well, if this was the right thing to do, some other team would have offered more in trade/money, etc."  If it works out, it was smart.  It's not possible to know that now.  There was a few months a couple years ago when I thought the Sox should have demanded Benintendi instead of Moncada.  Turns out, they were smarter than I gave them credit for (and smarter than me).

1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:

Ozuna also has a bad shoulder. My issue is more with Castellanos anyway. They fans that have a hard on for Castellanos are crying, but it's not like he's really good. 

To deny he has been a really dangerous hitter the last two seasons after putting up relatively pedestrian numbers earlier in his career...fine, but what FA will ever be available at an attractive rate that’s not a rebound guy like Gennett or Dickerson or Calhoun?

You should never buy too high on career years in FA, as you’re always paying diminishing returns for past production...but expecting Mazara to break out isn’t exactly Moneyball Version 2.0, either.

Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

Why the hell would we use an old ass prospect list to infer anything about Mazara in 2020?  He has a fucking baseball card full of shitty stats at the MLB level.  For every talented former prospect with his track record that turns into a productive MLB player there are 50 that never do.  You guys really think the Sox have the scouting and instruction to beat those odds?

Good luck.  This is a horrible move that highlights the worst aspects of Chicago's FO from ownership to the GM to the scouting guys.

Those guys had a baseball card full of shitty stats until last year as well too. Not sure what to tell you. They certainly beat the odds with Moncada and Giolito.

An old ass prospect list? LOL, the guys on that list with a similar age as Mazara either weren't productive last year, or it was their first year of production. 

2016 isn't an old ass prospect list for a 24 year old. My lord.

1 minute ago, sullythered said:

That's kinda defeatist circular thinking, isn't it?  You could say the same thing about any move the Sox make, no matter what.  "Well, if this was the right thing to do, some other team would have offered more in trade/money, etc."  If it works out, it was smart.  It's not possible to know that now.  There was a few months a couple years ago when I thought the Sox should have demanded Benintendi instead of Moncada.  Turns out, they were smarter than I gave them credit for (and smarter than me).

If you hate the White Sox, you can argue very move they make is bad obviously.

It's ironic because them trading for Mazara leads to people saying "I don't trust how they value players!" Yet if they signed someone for 100 million, those same people would be celebrating their ability to evaluate and sign talent.

1 minute ago, sullythered said:

That's kinda defeatist circular thinking, isn't it?  You could say the same thing about any move the Sox make, no matter what.  "Well, if this was the right thing to do, some other team would have offered more in trade/money, etc."  If it works out, it was smart.  It's not possible to know that now.  There was a few months a couple years ago when I thought the Sox should have demanded Benintendi instead of Moncada.  Turns out, they were smarter than I gave them credit for (and smarter than me).

Most of these same guys were all calling Moncada a bust up until last year. Par for the course 

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Of the top 20 who were Mazara's age or younger, here is how that breaks down:

Urias - still hasn't taken off yet, but still talented.

Gio - First good year last year

Yoan - First good year last year

Arcia and Crawford - Still waiting to see more from both

Brendan Rogers - Terrible big league numbers but still top prospect

Alex Reyes - Still looking for his first good year

Devers - First good year was last year (in fact, Devers was a 1 WAR player the same time as Mazara pretty much)

Austin Meadows - first good year last year

Mazara isn't exactly out of hope. Most of these guys had their first productive year last year; Mazara could easily be that guy this year.

That isn't the argument.  The argument is that he has been garbage and putting him in your starting lineup when you are supposed to be competing is foolish and cheap.  There are players FIVE times as valuable for just money that are much more accomplished hitters RIGHT NOW.  

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

If you hate the White Sox, you can argue very move they make is bad obviously.

It's ironic because them trading for Mazara leads to people saying "I don't trust how they value players!" Yet if they signed someone for 100 million, those same people would be celebrating their ability to evaluate and sign talent.

Our entire fan base needs to go to massive group therapy to deal with our giant self-hate problem.

3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

You think if one of those guys is acquired by the twins, it will not only negate Mazara but also the rest of the entire roster for three seasons?

Negating the roster and making it harder for the Sox are two entirely different things.

It only took Kenny Rogers vs. a parade of 5th starters that were the equivalent of Mazara in 2003 and Thome over Kotsay in 2010 to give the Twins two more AL Central titles.

One player.

Just now, TaylorStSox said:

Most of these same guys were all calling Moncada a bust up until last year. Par for the course 

Yeah, and Giolito (I was one). I thought Giolito was so far gone, that no talent could save him. Man how I was wrong. Talent can really overcome so much when it comes to struggles and etc. 

Just now, BackDoorBreach said:

That isn't the argument.  The argument is that he has been garbage and putting him in your starting lineup when you are supposed to be competing is foolish and cheap.  There are players FIVE times as valuable for just money that are much more accomplished hitters RIGHT NOW.  

Yeah, and people would have argued trading for Austin Meadows was a horrible idea last year.

You need to be ahead of the curve, not reactionary, in this business. I get questioning the Sox ability to be a trend setter, but a good organization goes out and finds an Austin Meadows when his prospect status is down after not developing in a linear fashion. I'm not saying he's Austin Meadows, and again the Sox clearly can't evaluate big league talent anywhere near where the Rays are right now so I get the concern, but give the guy a chance before you say he's complete trash.

6 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I'm definitely retarded for not remembering 34 year old Michael Brantley as our major RF aquisition.

Your words, not mine.  Look dude, I am not a huge fan of this move.  But its considerably better than paying up for Castellanos or Ozuna.  Those would have been very short sighted moves that surely would have inpaired a mid market team like the Sox in a couple years.  They're also dogshit defenders.  If I am Hahn, I wouldn't have made this trade in mid December - maybe mid February when all other options failed, but not right now.  

Moving onto what they do with the rest of the roster, but at this point, I am not overly confident it will be anything exciting.  

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, and Giolito (I was one). I thought Giolito was so far gone, that no talent could save him. Man how I was wrong. Talent can really overcome so much when it comes to struggles and etc. 

Mazara is a low-risk, high-reward acquisition. Considering how it looks the pitching is going to end up this year, I’m fine taking the risk. Competing in 2020 seems like a long shot unless something drastic changes.

1 minute ago, sullythered said:

Our entire fan base needs to go to massive group therapy to deal with our giant self-hate problem.

Or the owner could open the fucking pocket book and indicate that he's willing to stop shitting on us.

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, and Giolito (I was one). I thought Giolito was so far gone, that no talent could save him. Man how I was wrong. Talent can really overcome so much when it comes to struggles and etc. 

Me too.  I refuse to get down on Dylan Cease because I was so wrong on Gio, and Dylan has even more obvious natural talent than Gio did.

1 minute ago, fathom said:

Mazara is a low-risk, high-reward acquisition. Considering how it looks the pitching is going to end up this year, I’m fine taking the risk. Competing in 2020 seems like a long shot unless something drastic changes.

it's a massive risk because you probably enter your 2021 window without a starting RF and in 2020 you finished with 84 wins 3 games out of the wild card because you acquired  a .5 WAR RF instead of a 3.5 WAR one.

Edited December 11, 20196 yr by chitownsportsfan

It’s not a splashy move like a Castellanos or Ozuna but you get a LH power bat in the lineup that has untapped potential and a better defender than Castellanos and Ozuna at a cheaper cost. If it doesn’t work out for a year than you can always non tender him and go a different route without really losing much. I don’t get all the complaining. 

Edited December 11, 20196 yr by maloney.adam

5 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Oh, so you then agree that we should just sign somebody at the same price that can hit both LH and RH pitching?

Nope, there won’t be anyone and Brantley will be too old.

Has to come internally or via trade.  They need to get a break, like Stiever becoming a lockdown closer so that they don’t have to go out and spend $15-20 million to fill that spot externally.

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, and people would have argued trading for Austin Meadows was a horrible idea last year.

You need to be ahead of the curve, not reactionary, in this business. I get questioning the Sox ability to be a trend setter, but a good organization goes out and finds an Austin Meadows when his prospect status is down after not developing in a linear fashion. I'm not saying he's Austin Meadows, and again the Sox clearly can't evaluate big league talent anywhere near where the Rays are right now so I get the concern, but give the guy a chance before you say he's complete trash.

I do not mind rolling the dice on Mazara considering how pricey top FA options are right now

The same people who hate this trade will probably hate when they trade for Price too, despite clamoring for a SP, in particular Price.

I think I'd rather have Mazara for Walker than Price for Walker.

1 minute ago, sullythered said:

Me too.  I refuse to get down on Dylan Cease because I was so wrong on Gio, and Dylan has even more obvious natural talent than Gio did.

All talent doesn't reach their ceilings, but that prospect list is not only telling but also impressive. 

The industry in general has gotten so much better at evaluating prospects and projecting them. The fact that every player under 21 on that list has a quality big league career ahead of them is impressive, and also promising.

Living 5 minutes from Globe Life Park in Arlington, I have seen quite a bit of Nomar Mazara. Not only against our Sox but against other teams. This guy has loads of potential. The past few years, he was a huge part of their offense at a very very young age. The majority of his at bats he was batting 3rd and 4th in their lineup as a 21-23 year old. Our ballpark will play similar if not better and although he is not the greatest defensively, he's not the worst of the available options and his arm is strong. This was the guy I wanted at the beginning of the offseason ahead of Ozuna and Castellanos, Puig, and whoever else. Dropping to 6th and 7th in our lineup- I'm not a scout but I believe he will flourish in a Sox uniform.

Edited December 11, 20196 yr by BurlyMan56