4 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Just like not signing McCann to an extension last year.  If we had signed him to a two year extension last year...he would have more value if we wanted to move him now.  Let's say we could add a couple years of control for 25-30 million.  I think that would be money well spent.

Sure, but McCann was never going to be one of the Top 25-35 most valuable contracts in baseball simply based on his time with the Tigers being in the back of every scout’s minds.   And his salary at those rates ($25-30 million for two years) and with a 2020 reversion to second half numbers or Tigers’ “mean” numbers would make his contract extremely difficult to move.

 

Signing guys to guaranteed money in the midst of a career year that are arb eligible and have never shown the tools to be anymore than a backup catcher in over 1000 MLB PA doesn't seem like smart business to me.

How in the hell did James McCann get in this thread?

Edited January 4, 20206 yr by chitownsportsfan

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Sure, but McCann was never going to be one of the Top 25-35 most valuable contracts in baseball simply based on his time with the Tigers being in the back of every scout’s minds.   And his salary at those rates ($25-30 million for two years) and with a 2020 reversion to second half numbers or Tigers’ “mean” numbers would make his contract extremely difficult to move.

 

I was obviously saying 25-30 million extension for Madrigal.  The McCann extension discussed at the time was for approximately 5 million per year.  Not every extension has to be for mega millions to be considered.

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Signing guys to guaranteed money in the midst of a career year that are arb eligible and have never shown the tools to be anymore than a backup catcher in over 1000 MLB PA doesn't seem like smart business to me.

How in the hell did James McCann get in this thread?

A theoretical discussion about extending virtually any player in order to in theory have that players services for a longer period of control or enhance his trade value.  I maintain that extensions don't mean only the expensive Sale, Q and Eaton types but also players like McCann or Lopez if the price is right.

The problem is McCann isn't part of the core and is likely to be traded since he doesn’t want to stick around as a backup.

Lopez, Cease, Kopech and Giolito are separate issues, but time has shown the return on investment with younger position players works out more often than not, at least with the very top prospects in MILB.

Madrigal and his agent shouldn’t sign for anything less than $32.5-35 million.  They just guaranteed Robert another $50 million in addition to his original deal, so he’s at $76 million without even setting foot on a big league field.  Not to mention that was a 16% increase on the deal Eloy Jimenez just inked.

So the White Sox have shattered records two years in row...they’ve also “pulled” (a rising tide floats all boats) Madrigal’s expected deal into the low to mid $30’s in the process.

 

43 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The problem is McCann isn't part of the core and is likely to be traded since he doesn’t want to stick around as a backup.

Lopez, Cease, Kopech and Giolito are separate issues, but time has shown the return on investment with younger position players works out more often than not, at least with the very top prospects in MILB.

Madrigal and his agent shouldn’t sign for anything less than $32.5-35 million.  They just guaranteed Robert another $50 million in addition to his original deal, so he’s at $76 million without even setting foot on a big league field.  Not to mention that was a 16% increase on the deal Eloy Jimenez just inked.

So the White Sox have shattered records two years in row...they’ve also “pulled” (a rising tide floats all boats) Madrigal’s expected deal into the low to mid $30’s in the process.

 

Honestly, if he's under contract, I don't care what he "wants". If Giolito wants him to catch, he's not going anywhere.

7 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The problem is McCann isn't part of the core and is likely to be traded since he doesn’t want to stick around as a backup.

Lopez, Cease, Kopech and Giolito are separate issues, but time has shown the return on investment with younger position players works out more often than not, at least with the very top prospects in MILB.

Madrigal and his agent shouldn’t sign for anything less than $32.5-35 million.  They just guaranteed Robert another $50 million in addition to his original deal, so he’s at $76 million without even setting foot on a big league field.  Not to mention that was a 16% increase on the deal Eloy Jimenez just inked.

So the White Sox have shattered records two years in row...they’ve also “pulled” (a rising tide floats all boats) Madrigal’s expected deal into the low to mid $30’s in the process.

 

McCann is only being used for discussion purposes here.  Last year he was being talked about as an extension candidate.  Posters had the usual discussion of he's a flash in the pan all the way through he's the best thing since sliced bread.  If he had been extended for 5 or 6 million per year for 2 or 3 additional years...his trade value would be greater today.  Note:  I don't want to trade McCann but he is an example that extensions are not only for stars but virtually any good player.  

The 25-30 million # used for a Madrigal extension was used for discussion purposes.  I trust RH with figuring out the $# for Madrigal.  Every extension he has orchestrated has been for cheaper than most of us would have thought.

35 minutes ago, poppysox said:

McCann is only being used for discussion purposes here.  Last year he was being talked about as an extension candidate.  Posters had the usual discussion of he's a flash in the pan all the way through he's the best thing since sliced bread.  If he had been extended for 5 or 6 million per year for 2 or 3 additional years...his trade value would be greater today.  Note:  I don't want to trade McCann but he is an example that extensions are not only for stars but virtually any good player.  

The 25-30 million # used for a Madrigal extension was used for discussion purposes.  I trust RH with figuring out the $# for Madrigal.  Every extension he has orchestrated has been for cheaper than most of us would have thought.

Jimenez was definitely fair market value (in terms of the extensions being signed all around MLB) for a player whose fWAR is never going to do him any favors...unless he hits about as well as JD Martinez.   The consensus of the board at the time certainly wasn't that it was a huge bargain or discount, but you’d have to go through that thread again.

 

There are people in the organization who are not convinced he will be an everyday big leaguer.  He very well could be a player like Yolmer that they look to upgrade from once he starts hitting his arbitration years.  There is no reason to commit years and dollars to a player like this.  

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

There are people in the organization who are not convinced he will be an everyday big leaguer.  He very well could be a player like Yolmer that they look to upgrade from once he starts hitting his arbitration years.  There is no reason to commit years and dollars to a player like this.  

I think this is the fairest take on Madrigal I’ve seen from you and I fully agree.  The offensive profile is way too uncertain to commit to right now.  Let’s see what he is and then worry about locking him.

The White Sox have been wonderful at drafting four first rounders in a row limited to the 3-4 fWAR range.

That said, Madrigal doesn't have to be a superstar with his fielding, speed and contact skills.  David Eckstein put up 13.8 fWAR his first six years in the majors...a 2.3 fWAR average.  The problem is that if you strip out his 4.5 outlying season, he only averaged 1.7 fWAR, which is below what we’ve come to expect from Yolmer and Leury.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/you-cant-measure-heart-or-david-eckstein-bows-out/
 

That said, a consistent 2.5-3.5 fWAR Madrigal is just fine, because that might be the lowest output in the starting lineup...other than RF and possibly DH.  You’re not asking him to lead the team or do too much.

7-8 years of a Gold Glove 2B with 30+ steals and a 750-775 ops has a good amount of value, even in today’s game.

 

He would need (at least) 50 attempts to get to 30 steals. Don't think they want him making that many outs on the bases. 

14 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

He would need (at least) 50 attempts to get to 30 steals. Don't think they want him making that many outs on the bases. 

They’re not going to allow someone to run that much if he’s not closer to the 80-85% success range.

And minor league numbers can usually be thrown out...he’s an extremely instinctive baserunner, he’ll figure it out when he is not going through learning through different leagues, catchers, pitchers, in the course of one season.  Plus the big league scouting reports are much more detailed...we’ve read recently about weaknesses there for the Sox compared to other organizations.

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

There are people in the organization who are not convinced he will be an everyday big leaguer.  He very well could be a player like Yolmer that they look to upgrade from once he starts hitting his arbitration years.  There is no reason to commit years and dollars to a player like this.  

Who were you hoping for in that draft? I just figured it'd be either Bohm/Madrigal - whoever Phili didn't take at #3.

53 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

He would need (at least) 50 attempts to get to 30 steals. Don't think they want him making that many outs on the bases. 

Any thoughts on why Madrigal is such a poor base stealer despite such strong speed and instincts?

Watching Madrigal at OSU and in the minors, I never thought he had elite speed. He’s a smart base runner of course but there were quite a few grounders he hit on the infield that a guy with elite speed would have beat out that he didn’t.

9 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Who were you hoping for in that draft? I just figured it'd be either Bohm/Madrigal - whoever Phili didn't take at #3.

Any thoughts on why Madrigal is such a poor base stealer despite such strong speed and instincts?

I wasn't on Bohm.  I wanted Singer or Kelenic but literally anyone else would have been fine. I would never take a low ceiling guy with the 4th pick in the draft.

He's not fast. His speed is incredibly overrated.  He has above avg speed. It's not plus and instincts will only get him so far in the big leagues.   I was told by someone instincts is his best tool.  That's a problem.  

3 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I wasn't on Bohm.  I wanted Singer or Kelenic but literally anyone else would have been fine. I would never take a low ceiling guy with the 4th pick in the draft.

He's not fast. His speed is incredibly overrated.  He has above avg speed. It's not plus and instincts will only get him so far in the big leagues.   I was told by someone instincts is his best tool.  That's a problem.  

I think if he doubles his 3% K rate to 6% in the big leagues, keeps using the whole field to hit and plays great D he's going to be a great piece for the Sox for a long time.

8 minutes ago, raBBit said:

I think if he doubles his 3% K rate to 6% in the big leagues, keeps using the whole field to hit and plays great D he's going to be a great piece for the Sox for a long time.

I agree with the defemse.  He's gonna be good.  I don't care about the K rate. He can double or triple that if it means he can make more consistent hard contact.  His exit velocity is at the bottom of major league hitters.  It's Billy Hamilton level bad without the elite speed.  If he doesn't hit the ball harder I don't think he can hit it where they ain't enough against major league pitchers.  

Madrigal is exactly what the doctor ordered for a team that had the 6th most strikeouts in the entire MLB in 2019 and was dead last in walks in the entire MLB.

44 minutes ago, Chisox378 said:

Madrigal is exactly what the doctor ordered for a team that had the 6th most strikeouts in the entire MLB in 2019 and was dead last in walks in the entire MLB.

Except that’s predicated on him being a lot more selective at hitting almost any pitch in the strike zone earlier in the count...he walks a lot less than expected for someone of that size.  Of course, he rarely strikes out, as well.  Almost always puts the ball in play, somewhere.   

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Of course, he rarely strikes out, as well.  Almost always puts the ball in play, somewhere.   

I love this type of player. Make the defense work, move runners over. Use speed to beat out grounders. He had a decent amount of doubles last year as well.

Extend him a high five for his first hit in mid April and relish in the fact the sox saved some money for the long haul.

I don't think I'd extend Madrigal just yet but would have little worry if we did extend him. I think he's going to be a very good player and like everything about him, but I'd wait a yr. just to be sure and I don't believe it would cost us much more to do so. I'd be much more interested in extending Moncada before he gets really expensive. I believe Madrigal would get a contract similar to Anderson's.

On 1/3/2020 at 1:40 PM, flavum said:

Or they could just go off script, and bring him up on Day 1 without a long term deal. Less likely, but some teams have done that recently. 

That is the right thing to do.

Risk/reward doesn't make sense. That's what the Eloy and Robert extensions were about. 

Also, "extension" isn't really applicable - it's really just setting out an established pay schedule for arb years and then possible team options. The risk isn't all that much.

 

Madrigal is a nice piece to any team, and a guy i think the Southside fans will love, but i dont think he's the kind of guy who will ever force a mega-contract.