8 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I said lock them all up regardless of ideology. You disagreed. You want to pick and choose which traitors receive which punishment. Nice. I still think that's really fucked up. I'll stand by my statement that they all should be jailed for treason and given the harshest sentences under law. 

Who was checking ideology at the capital? I believe that all sorts of anti American views were present in that mob including communists. As soon as we follow your path of trying to sort out these traitors by ideology we go down a very dangerous path. Lock them all up for a long time. 

No, I want to discuss the violent fascist coup that actually was attempted, the causes of it, and how it isn't going away, and how it isn't comparable to protest movements. You're simply lying now because you dug yourself a hole a mile deep by treating the fascist assault on Congress as simply disagreeing on how best to run the country.

 

I don't want to pretend that it was anything but what it was or that it'll simply go away in a couple of weeks. If we don't understand the ideology that continues to motivate these people, you cannot stop future events.

 

and when you start saying communists were probably in the fascist Trump mob, you're repeating the propaganda the fascists are now putting out.

Your string of posts today amount of defending fascism as a legitimate ideology and then spraying squid ink over everything else. It's disgusting.

7 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Again, I don't care why they are committing acts of treason. They all get the harshest sentence possible. 

Some people want to cut slack if they aren't fascists. I disagree. Life in prison for all of them.

Nobody wants to cut anyone slack by ideology. 

I can tell you right now, that right wing extremism is waaaaaaay more of a problem than left wing extremism, though the media would like you to think otherwise. 

If you want me to send you a PM, I can explain. 

Edited January 11, 20215 yr by Jack Parkman

Just now, StrangeSox said:

No, I want to discuss the violent fascist coup that actually was attempted, the causes of it, and how it isn't going away, and how it isn't comparable to protest movements. You're simply lying now because you dug yourself a hole a mile deep by treating the fascist assault on Congress as simply disagreeing on how best to run the country.

 

I don't want to pretend that it was anything but what it was or that it'll simply go away in a couple of weeks. If we don't understand the ideology that continues to motivate these people, you cannot stop future events.

 

and when you start saying communists were probably in the fascist Trump mob, you're repeating the propaganda the fascists are now putting out.

Your string of posts today amount of defending fascism as a legitimate ideology and then spraying squid ink over everything else. It's disgusting.

I said we will survive this as we survived every other assault on America. 

Again, I said treason is treason regardless of the reason and they all should receive the harshest sentence. Go look at my post you quoted. I want the people locked up with the harshest sentences possible and you call that defending? Why are you only calling out the fascists in the mob? Why evenb care what their ideology is? Their actions are what matters. They committed acts of treason and that's why they should held accountable in the harshest possible way. That's how we will survive this shit. 

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I said we will survive this as we survived every other assault on America. 

Again, I said treason is treason regardless of the reason and they all should receive the harshest sentence. Go look at my post you quoted. I want the people locked up with the harshest sentences possible and you call that defending? Why are you only calling out the fascists in the mob? Why evenb care what their ideology is? Their actions are what matters. They committed acts of treason and that's why they should held accountable in the harshest possible way. That's how we will survive this shit. 

The ideology matters because fascism has become fairly mainstream in the US, and it needs to be condemned before it gains even more power. It's not going away unless we make it. Even though Trump is 74, there are others with fascist tendencies in the GOP and they could lead these people. 

This is a right wing/fascist issue. Stop trying to both sides this. 

Edited January 11, 20215 yr by Jack Parkman

37 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

It's pretty fucked up how far you're willing to go to treat fascism as just another normal political ideology to be debated and discussed.

Show me where I said it should be debated and discussed? I said it doesn't matter why someone broke into the capital, they should be locked up for treason. That kind of sounds like the opposite of debate and discussion to me. 

Sen. Joe McCarthy eventually was discredited.   The Communist witch hunts might be the closest parallel to this current phenomenon. 

We also survived major assassinations, numerous cities burning in race riots/protests, Vietnam and Watergate in the 60s and early 70s. 

America is pretty darned resilient, but staring into the abyss and escaping due largely to pure luck, having barely passed the stress test as a country, hardly means this is all over. 

Edited January 11, 20215 yr by caulfield12

Just now, Texsox said:

Show me where I said it should be debated and discussed? I said it doesn't matter why someone broke into the capital, they should be locked up for treason. That kind of sounds like the opposite of debate and discussion to me. 

As far as the punishment for the specific act, no, it doesn't matter why those people broke into the Capitol, but if we're going to deal with the cause and not just the action, then yes, it matters why it happened and that people of other types of extremist views didn't. Otherwise, we're just sitting around hoping it doesn't happen again.

Prediction time: do any of you think Trump will still be invited into Fox News, or is his brand too toxic even for Fox News to have on?

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

The ideology matters because fascism has become fairly mainstream in the US, and it needs to be condemned before it gains even more power. 

This is a right wing/fascist issue. Stop trying to both sides this. 

OK. ideology matters. If the harshest sentence for breaking into the capital is life in prison what should some receive who isn't a fascist? I believe they should also get life in prison. But you and Strange Sox disagree. What's the sentence for someone who they can't prove is a fascist? 

1 minute ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

As far as the punishment for the specific act, no, it doesn't matter why those people broke into the Capitol, but if we're going to deal with the cause and not just the action, then yes, it matters why it happened and that people of other types of extremist views didn't. Otherwise, we're just sitting around hoping it doesn't happen again.

Exactly. Thank you. That's another reason I'm optimistic for America. We have two years of Dem control, we'll use it well. 

2 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Prediction time: do any of you think Trump will still be invited into Fox News, or is his brand too toxic even for Fox News to have on?

I think his mainstream career is dead. He'll start his own internet platform and it will be *huge* (saying sarcastically in Trump's voice). 

Munchel has been charged with "one count of knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority and one count of violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds," according to the U.S. Attorney.

Does anyone believe a guy dressed in tactical military gear and armed with plastic zip restraints will be stopped by charges like that? 

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/capitol-riot-suspects-allegedly-brought-221100302.html

43 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Why is this even something to talk about?

It doesn't matter for a second what we think could have or would have happened. 

This is an absolutely meaningless sidebar that distracts from actual sedition and treason. 

There seems to be a need to address the issues that led up to the treasonous actions. Whether it's rooting out fascism or restoring faith in the election process. I believe moving forward we need to  punish those involved in this act to the fullest extent of the law and work to prevent another riot like this. If we don't address the underlying problems we're on borrowed time until it happens again. There are plenty of people here who believe Biden's presidency was threatened by this event and it could happen again in another election. 

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Munchel has been charged with "one count of knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority and one count of violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds," according to the U.S. Attorney.

Does anyone believe a guy dressed in tactical military gear and armed with plastic zip restraints will be stopped by charges like that? 

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/capitol-riot-suspects-allegedly-brought-221100302.html

I don't. I hope additional charges will be brought as the investigation continues. We're in trouble if they have finished the investigation. Hopefully this was to get him off the streets ahead of the inauguration. I hope police are planning a huge arrest party next week. Let them bail themselves out after Biden is sworn in. 

3 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I don't. I hope additional charges will be brought as the investigation continues. We're in trouble if they have finished the investigation. Hopefully this was to get him off the streets ahead of the inauguration. 

What happens if the President issues a pardon?

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Munchel has been charged with "one count of knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority and one count of violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds," according to the U.S. Attorney.

Does anyone believe a guy dressed in tactical military gear and armed with plastic zip restraints will be stopped by charges like that? 

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/capitol-riot-suspects-allegedly-brought-221100302.html

The entire DOJ changes leadership in less than 2 weeks. Id let it play out a bit.

Im surprised how quickly the current DOJ is working and somewhat concerned their may be blanket pardons.

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

What happens if the President issues a pardon?

Riots. Then I retract my statement that we will survive this. Last year I wrote to my congressman that there needs to be restraint on the President from pardoning anyone who was involved with the president in the act of a crime. It's unimaginative to me that the president could order someone to commit a crime then be in position to pardon the individual. I wonder if there is a constitutional question. Honestly, it's a nightmare scenario. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Prediction time: do any of you think Trump will still be invited into Fox News, or is his brand too toxic even for Fox News to have on?

Since I just saw host Lou Dobbs on Fox in a spitting rage at Senator Ben Sasse (R-KS) for his "disloyalty" to a guy who just initiated a coup attempt against his own government, I think the answer is that DJT is still welcome on that "news" outlet.

6 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

The entire DOJ changes leadership in less than 2 weeks. Id let it play out a bit.

Im surprised how quickly the current DOJ is working and somewhat concerned their may be blanket pardons.

This is one of those times I'd like to see arrests and charges delayed. There has to be a way for those pardon's to be overruled. Perhaps if the pardons was part of a conspiracy. Didn't Trump say that he would consider pardons before the riot?  

Just now, Texsox said:

This is one of those times I'd like to see arrests and charges delayed. There has to be a way for those pardon's to be overruled. Perhaps if the pardons was part of a conspiracy. Didn't Trump say that he would consider pardons before the riot?  

Legally none of this has ever gone to court so from that perspective the next few months/year may have some interesting legal opinions.

For what it's worth some legal scholars don't believe Trump can pardon himself.

We also have never entertained the idea that a future President could rescind a pardon or a wrongful pardon.

 

6 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Riots. Then I retract my statement that we will survive this. Last year I wrote to my congressman that there needs to be restraint on the President from pardoning anyone who was involved with the president in the act of a crime. It's unimaginative to me that the president could order someone to commit a crime then be in position to pardon the individual. I wonder if there is a constitutional question. Honestly, it's a nightmare scenario. 

 

 

As I understand it, effectively no. The President's pardon power is one of the strongest powers of that office, it is virtually unlimited.  The only legit question would be whether the President could pardon himself, or arrange for a pardon of himself through blackmail.

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

This is one of those times I'd like to see arrests and charges delayed. There has to be a way for those pardon's to be overruled. Perhaps if the pardons was part of a conspiracy. Didn't Trump say that he would consider pardons before the riot?  

https://www.voanews.com/usa/us-politics/trump-has-power-pardon-mob-attacked-us-capitol Does not matter if charges are delayed. He could do so right now.

Quote

“He could do so right away — he does not need to wait until any formal legal process has started,” Jeffrey Crouch, an assistant professor of politics at American University and the author of a book on presidential pardon power, told VOA via email. 

If Trump does offer clemency to the rioters, he would not be the first president to issue a blanket pardon. 

On Christmas Day in 1868, Andrew Johnson pardoned all former Confederates who fought against the United States in the Civil War. Some of the men Johnson pardoned went on to become architects of the Jim Crow laws that legalized racial segregation. 

 

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

As I understand it, effectively no. The President's pardon power is one of the strongest powers of that office, it is virtually unlimited.  The only legit question would be whether the President could pardon himself, or arrange for a pardon of himself through blackmail.

While I would like to see it, I never believed that Trump would be charged and thus never serve time. But I have always believe there would be jail time for tactical vest and zip tie guy, horns and red/white/blue face paint guy, waving like a moron walking with the speaker's podium guy, etc etc

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

https://www.voanews.com/usa/us-politics/trump-has-power-pardon-mob-attacked-us-capitol Does not matter if charges are delayed. He could do so right now.

 

I need to research why we give presidents that power. But on first glance, if Trump abuses his power in this way, there needs to be an amendment to the constitution preventing it from ever happening again. We can't give free reign to a president to mount a coup and then everyone goes home with stories. 

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

As I understand it, effectively no. The President's pardon power is one of the strongest powers of that office, it is virtually unlimited.  The only legit question would be whether the President could pardon himself, or arrange for a pardon of himself through blackmail.

To the best of my knowledge no one has ever attempted to litigate these issues. So all of this could change.