When (or if) the lockout ends, Carlos Rodon should top the Sox list of signings

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

 

Vaughn has to play somewhere, and it's not going to be DH.

So unless he's being traded, I don't see how the Sox can go sign Conforto. 

I believe RF and DH will be a mix and mitch situation, and that's not a bad thing.   Especially if we wat to keep Grandal's bat in the lineup when he doesn't catch.  Grandal to 1B would be the option with Abreu taking a day off at DH, especially with a good LH  pitcher on that night.  

2B is the most glaring hole on this team. 

That's where I'd focus all my attention.  

Not a lot of people want to hear this, but I think Vaughn could use a season in Charlotte. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not a lot of people want to hear this, but I think Vaughn could use a season in Charlotte. 

While I get what you’re saying…the White Sox have a system that is very weak and low on assets with trade value, a roster that has several obvious holes, a narrow amount to spend beneath whatever the luxury tax will be, and a roster that will be starting to lose pieces each offseason (with big losses 2 years from now so the window seems like it could be 2 years).

The White Sox don’t have enough resources to park an asset at AAA to let him get better right now. If he needs time at AAA, it should be someone else’s.

[Two-Gun Pete]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While I get what you’re saying…the White Sox have a system that is very weak and low on assets with trade value, a roster that has several obvious holes, a narrow amount to spend beneath whatever the luxury tax will be, and a roster that will be starting to lose pieces each offseason (with big losses 2 years from now so the window seems like it could be 2 years).

The White Sox don’t have enough resources to park an asset at AAA to let him get better right now. If he needs time at AAA, it should be someone else’s.

I dunno if I want Vaughn to be here or in Charlotte. I DO know that he doesn't do a lot of the things this team needs right now. [Corner OF defense, hit v RHP, or play a cromulent 2B]

I also know that what he can do now is done already better than he by others in this roster. [Crush LHP, play 1B] So, absent a sea change in his performance, and/OR an injury, I don't think it would be a travesty for him to start in Charlotte.

[Jack Parkman]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While I get what you’re saying…the White Sox have a system that is very weak and low on assets with trade value, a roster that has several obvious holes, a narrow amount to spend beneath whatever the luxury tax will be, and a roster that will be starting to lose pieces each offseason (with big losses 2 years from now so the window seems like it could be 2 years).

The White Sox don’t have enough resources to park an asset at AAA to let him get better right now. If he needs time at AAA, it should be someone else’s.

That's why I'm fine trading him for Ketel Marte or a top SP (idk who is even available) 

I don't think the Sox are going to get a true ace unless either Cease or Kopech develop into one. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Fair point on the rotation, and to be fair to you, I should clarify. I think the OD rotation does not necessarily have to be the playoff rotation. For me, my goal is to limit Kopech's IP, so that he's available for the post-season. Also, unless Keuchel finds a way to beat back the invincible Father Time for a bit, I also don't relish seeing him pitch in the post-season. I view it as:

OD: Giolito, Lynn, Cease, FA SP from the above list, Keuchel. Kopech in  AA or AAA slowly getting ramped up for a recall in late May/early June, one of Crochet and Lopez either in the pen, or the 6th SP in Charlotte.

Post Season: Giolito, Lynn, Cease, FA SP from the above list, Kopech. Keuchel as swing man or off the Post season roster, and the best of Crochet and/or Lopez on the post season roster. 

 

On Brad Miller, he produced less fWAR in 140 games last season than the hated Nick Madrigal produced in 54 games. Yeah, he's "just a guy," which given his likely salary, kinda sucks. He's the living embodiment of "meh," TBH. Honestly, looking at the available MI on the market, they all kinda suck, unless you think this FO will splurge on Correa or Story. If you think that, I'd like some of what you're smoking.

Whoever they get for 2B, should just stay out of trouble, keep their pieholes shut, stay healthy, and catch whatever's hit at them. That's all we can hope for, IMO.

Kopech isn’t starting the year in the minors after last year and I don’t see how we can manage his innings well enough to assume he’ll be productive for the postseason.  Way too risky of a plan IMO.  This year is about building Kopech up and unleashing him in 2023.

As for Miller, the fWAR he put up is a function of how he was used.  He is a platoon bat who had ~20% of plate appearances against same side pitching.  He also was also used in the OF where he was horrible and should never play.  Meanwhile, his advanced metrics at 2B were solid.  For $3M he could be a great value if used exclusively at 2B with minimal at-bats against LHP.  And for the record, I was a big Madrigal fan, but he’s irrelevant to the decision at hand.  We can’t afford three expensive players at SP, RF, & 2B and if I have to go cheap at one of them it’s going to be at 2B with Miller being as decent as an option that exists.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, HOFHurt35 said:

 

Vaughn has to play somewhere, and it's not going to be DH.

So unless he's being traded, I don't see how the Sox can go sign Conforto. 

I believe RF and DH will be a mix and mitch situation, and that's not a bad thing.   Especially if we wat to keep Grandal's bat in the lineup when he doesn't catch.  Grandal to 1B would be the option with Abreu taking a day off at DH, especially with a good LH  pitcher on that night.  

2B is the most glaring hole on this team. 

That's where I'd focus all my attention.  

Why isn’t DH going to be the spot for Vaughn?

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not a lot of people want to hear this, but I think Vaughn could use a season in Charlotte. 

I’d be ok with him getting two or three weeks in Charlotte.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why isn’t DH going to be the spot for Vaughn?

Even if they add a LH hitting OF, it is hard to see a right handed DH getting much playing time compared to a LH hitting one in this lineup. They need the balance…

Unless someone has a major injury.

[Two-Gun Pete]

32 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Kopech isn’t starting the year in the minors after last year and I don’t see how we can manage his innings well enough to assume he’ll be productive for the postseason.  Way too risky of a plan IMO.  This year is about building Kopech up and unleashing him in 2023.

As for Miller, the fWAR he put up is a function of how he was used.  He is a platoon bat who had ~20% of plate appearances against same side pitching.  He also was also used in the OF where he was horrible and should never play.  Meanwhile, his advanced metrics at 2B were solid.  For $3M he could be a great value if used exclusively at 2B with minimal at-bats against LHP.  And for the record, I was a big Madrigal fan, but he’s irrelevant to the decision at hand.  We can’t afford three expensive players at SP, RF, & 2B and if I have to go cheap at one of them it’s going to be at 2B with Miller being as decent as an option that exists.

If you keep Kopech here, he will forever remain a RP. This manager lacks the neuroplasticity necessary to come up with a creative way to stretch Kopech out at the MLB level, WHILE trying to compete. This manager will invariably prioritize winning NOW, and fuck the future, because he's pushing 80; he may not be around to watch Kopech in a year or two.

At the same time, that pitching coach hasn't shown the testicular virility to control that manager's urges to overuse a favored pitcher, so as to manage his workload. See: Kimbrel in the post-season last year, and Kimbrel’s usage patterns in the 2nd half of last year as examples of this.

So, the best way to balance IP management AND stretch out Kopech is for him to be away from our inept manager, IMO. And that means, send him to MiLB to start, and build his endurance.

As others have said, the shortened season can further help with getting Kopech SP-ready. He's definitely a MLB-caliber pitcher right now. But he ain't a MLB-caliber STARTING pitcher, just yet.

That aside, there is no talismanic power to a player starting a season in the 26 man. Im more concerned with having the best 26 man in October. So that means I'm OK with Kopech, Crochet, and yes, Vaughn being elsewhere on OD, if that's whats best for the team and the player.

I always say: Mickey Mantle was sent back to MiLB after the start of his MLB career, and his career didn't die from it. And there are thousands of other players who went back to MiLB, who later had fine careers. It will be peachy-keen for any of our youngsters to go back to MiLB, if so warranted. 

 

And yeah, you could hide Miller, or any other 2B signee this offseason against less-than-ideal matchups. But they all kinda suck, whomever they get. Not a single 2B available right now will move the needle for this team. Whomever they sign just needs to get his hole shut, stay out of trouble, stay healthy, and catch the ball. Thats it, and thats all.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Chick Mercedes]

Until the exact reason for his drop in performance/measurables, I don't see how the Sox could do more than 1 year at a discount. If Rodon wants the Sox to roll the dice without solving the mystery, he has to compromise, a lot. Personally, I'm moving on from damaged goods, and looking to fill a rotation spot with something more dependable. A bad plan is to reserve a rotaion spot for a question mark if you have other options.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not a lot of people want to hear this, but I think Vaughn could use a season in Charlotte. 

Not a lot of people want to hear this, but if they sign Castellanos, Vaughn is likely to be traded.  

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Even if they add a LH hitting OF, it is hard to see a right handed DH getting much playing time compared to a LH hitting one in this lineup. They need the balance…

Unless someone has a major injury.

If you sign Conforto and add a platoon 2B, then you have plenty of balance.  The numbers in parentheses reflect each player’s wRC+ vs. RHP or LHP over the past three seasons.

1. Anderson, SS (118) | Anderson, SS (151)
2. Moncada, 3B# (129) | Robert, CF (184)
3. Abreu, 1B (118) | Abreu, 1B (159)
4. Conforto, RF* (138) | Jimenez, LF (99)
5. Jimenez, LF (124) | Grandal, C# (152)
6. Robert, CF  (117) | Vaughn, DH (155)
7. Grandal, C# (124) | Moncada, 3B# (110)
8. Vaughn, DH (68) | Conforto, RF* (97)
9. Miller, 2B* (127) | Garcia, 2B# (106)

In regards to Vaughn, he’s only going to get better against RHP if we actually play him against RHP.  And the kid was a 60 FV prospect 100% because of the potential of his bat.  I’m one of Gavin Sheets’ biggest fans on this board, but under no circumstance do you use his performance last year to relegate Vaughn to a weak-side DH platoon role.  And if that’s the plan for Vaughn, send him to AAA to gain a year of service time back or trade him for something that can help us win now.  Weak-side platooning Vaughn is horrible use of a very important asset and would have long-term repercussions.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

If you sign Conforto and add a platoon 2B, then you have plenty of balance.  The numbers in parentheses reflect each player’s wRC+ vs. RHP or LHP over the past three seasons.

1. Anderson, SS (118) | Anderson, SS (151)
2. Moncada, 3B# (129) | Robert, CF (184)
3. Abreu, 1B (118) | Abreu, 1B (159)
4. Conforto, RF* (138) | Jimenez, LF (99)
5. Jimenez, LF (124) | Grandal, C# (152)
6. Robert, CF  (117) | Vaughn, DH (155)
7. Grandal, C# (124) | Moncada, 3B# (110)
8. Vaughn, DH (68) | Conforto, RF* (97)
9. Miller, 2B* (127) | Garcia, 2B# (106)

In regards to Vaughn, he’s only going to get better against RHP if we actually play him against RHP.  And the kid was a 60 FV prospect 100% because of the potential of his bat.  I’m one of Gavin Sheets’ biggest fans on this board, but under no circumstance do you use his performance last year to relegate Vaughn to a weak-side DH platoon role.  And if that’s the plan for Vaughn, send him to AAA to gain a year of service time back or trade him for something that can help us win now.  Weak-side platooning Vaughn is horrible use of a very important asset and would have long-term repercussions.

See, I actually knew you were going to say this so I have this response prepared, and I'm going to challenge you to be honest here. Take this team's roster. You have a DH spot. Assume both Vaughn and Sheets are on the roster, and RF is filled by "Someone other than Vaughn/Sheets". All of these are entirely plausible.

No matter how much "we shouldn't turn Vaughn into a RH platoon hitter" is the right answer for Vaughn's career, if both Vaughn and Sheets are on the roster, DH is the only spot they can play every day, and Tony LaRussa is the manager, isn't that 100% exactly to the letter what will happen, with complete and utter certainty? Hell, how many times is he going to be benched to put any random lefty at DH when there's a righty on the mound? We saw this team put Danny Mendick, Nick Williams, and Seby Zavala at DH at various times last year, none of whom should ever have DH'd (and yes Seby isn't a LH hitter, but he also isn't a DH).

I think Vaughn can be better than a platoon player eventually as well, but with how this team is constructed that's just the reality - if a RF is signed, he will basically be used a platoon DH unless someone gets hurt or unless Sheets is sent down, and if Sheets is sent down then we'll start seeing either Leury or Grandal taking the at DH bats against righty starters.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

See, I actually knew you were going to say this so I have this response prepared, and I'm going to challenge you to be honest here. Take this team's roster. You have a DH spot. Assume both Vaughn and Sheets are on the roster, and RF is filled by "Someone other than Vaughn/Sheets". All of these are entirely plausible.

No matter how much "we shouldn't turn Vaughn into a RH platoon hitter" is the right answer for Vaughn's career, if both Vaughn and Sheets are on the roster, DH is the only spot they can play every day, and Tony LaRussa is the manager, isn't that 100% exactly to the letter what will happen, with complete and utter certainty? Hell, how many times is he going to be benched to put any random lefty at DH when there's a righty on the mound? We saw this team put Danny Mendick, Nick Williams, and Seby Zavala at DH at various times last year, none of whom should ever have DH'd (and yes Seby isn't a LH hitter, but he also isn't a DH).

I think Vaughn can be better than a platoon player eventually as well, but with how this team is constructed that's just the reality - if a RF is signed, he will basically be used a platoon DH unless someone gets hurt or unless Sheets is sent down, and if Sheets is sent down then we'll start seeing either Leury or Grandal taking the at DH bats against righty starters.

You’re probably right on how La Russa would use them if both were on the roster, which means Sheets needs to go via trade to address the rotation or 2B.

[Chicago White Sox]

Man I think people will be pissed if we trade sign Castellanos to turn around and trade Vaughn.  Unless you’re using Andrew to get a legit ace (who I’d ask) or Ketel Marte, there isn’t really anything out there that makes sense.  And even then, you’re quickly shrinking this window to about three years.  And maybe that makes sense; but losing Vaughn’s pre arb salary will make that even more challenging.

[Chick Mercedes]

I can’t get on board with a plan that values Castellanos  over Vaughn. But if Vaughn gets you a real prospect, ehh ok 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Chick Mercedes

[Spicy gar]

6 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Don't quote me on this, but I think I saw somewhere the Sox are last in MLB in fWAR from RF since they traded Alex Rios. And both Sheets and Vaughn are only 1st basemen. People are forgetting how RF is and has been a supermassive black hole for the Sox for the better part of a decade. 

As in Rios was the last good right fielder? He barely played right for Sox i thought. Not sure

[oldsox]

55 minutes ago, Spicy gar said:

As in Rios was the last good right fielder? He barely played right for Sox i thought. Not sure

We had him for 4 years or so.  He signed a $60 million, 5 yr deal with Toronto, and they immediately wanted out of it, so they called Kenny, and he took Rios off their hands.  Rios and Dunn made a helluva pair to draw to.

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, Spicy gar said:

As in Rios was the last good right fielder? He barely played right for Sox i thought. Not sure

He played CF when they acquired him but mostly RF afterward. 

CF was a black hole from the time Rowand got traded until Robert got called up. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[poppysox]

17 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

 

Vaughn has to play somewhere, and it's not going to be DH.

So unless he's being traded, I don't see how the Sox can go sign Conforto. 

I believe RF and DH will be a mix and mitch situation, and that's not a bad thing.   Especially if we wat to keep Grandal's bat in the lineup when he doesn't catch.  Grandal to 1B would be the option with Abreu taking a day off at DH, especially with a good LH  pitcher on that night.  

2B is the most glaring hole on this team. 

That's where I'd focus all my attention.  

I agree with you but we are in the minority.  Vaughn, Sheets, and Engel are on the team and need to get play.  Everyone can't be the DH.  Unless a big trade involving Vaughn happens the mix and match is my guess as well.  We will spend some money but my guess is SP and 2nd base.  Also, two of our top farmhands are right fielders and don't need someone blocking them for 4 years.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

I agree with you but we are in the minority.  Vaughn, Sheets, and Engel are on the team and need to get play.  Everyone can't be the DH.  Unless a big trade involving Vaughn happens the mix and match is my guess as well.  We will spend some money but my guess is SP and 2nd base.  Also, two of our top farmhands are right fielders and don't need someone blocking them for 4 years.

Adam Engel is a 4th OF and should be treated as such.  Game-planning that he can be more than that despite injuring himself every season is the definition of insanity.

Sheets & Vaughn are NOT major league RFs.  When playing RF, they both averaged -1 DRS per 40 innings played (SSS but the eye test and basic logic confirm them being horrible out there).  For perspective, that is roughly the same level of defense Jermaine Dye provided in 2007 and he was literally the worst defensive OF in baseball per DRS.  And despite posting a wRC+ of 104, Dye ended up having a -1.2 fWAR season.  Point is that any offensive value these guys can provide in RF will be greatly offset by their poor defense.

Who are these SP & 2B we are going to spend “big money” on?  You can make this claim but point me to some names that fit the billing.  More realistically, we will need address these spots via trade (with Sheets a potential trade chip).  As such, the one spot that we can fill in free agency and help shore our weakness against tough RHP is in RF.

We are in our World Series window RIGHT NOW.  We only have Lucas Giolito & Yasmani Grandal for two more years.  We only have Tim Anderson, Lance Lynn, & Liam Hendriks for three more years.  Yoelqui Cespedes & Oscar Colas should have ZERO bearing on our near-term decision making.  The only thing that matters is winning a World Series in 2022, 2023, & 2024.  If Cespedes & Colas eventually develop into usable pieces that’s great, but for now they should be strictly minor league depth and potential trade chips.  Not signing Conforto because you are worried about blocking these two guys would be a fireable offense IMO.

[Y2Jimmy0]

15 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Not a lot of people want to hear this, but if they sign Castellanos, Vaughn is likely to be traded.  

Yeah that's fair. I wouldn't trade Vaughn because he's going to be a star but they'll get a fucking shit ton for him if they actually pulled the trigger. The problem with signing Castellanos though is that they still need a RF. 

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Yeah that's fair. I wouldn't trade Vaughn because he's going to be a star but they'll get a fucking shit ton for him if they actually pulled the trigger. The problem with signing Castellanos though is that they still need a RF. 

What could we even trade him for?  At 2B the only names worth considering would be Ketel Marte and maybe Gavin Lux.  Can’t even think of a good name on the SP side.

[Two-Gun Pete]

16 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

No matter how much "we shouldn't turn Vaughn into a RH platoon hitter" is the right answer for Vaughn's career, if both Vaughn and Sheets are on the roster, DH is the only spot they can play every day, and Tony LaRussa is the manager, isn't that 100% exactly to the letter what will happen, with complete and utter certainty?

See, you buried the lede in a long 'graph. But I'll answer that for you:

Yes, if there's a RFer signed, and both Sheets and Vaughn are here, TLR most certainly will platoon them. He still manages as if its 1985, to wit:

One of the fewest IP by a bullpen; Billy Fucking Hamilton getting 135 PA; and yes, non-MLB caliber bats in Mendick and Zavala getting PA at DH.

So, despite these realities, posters here want to dream that a 77 year old fossil is going to magically start managing like a 21st Century manager? Ludicrous. The only way to save TLR from himself is to remove certain players from his purview:

Bring only one of Sheets OR Vaughn north. And yes, if Kopech is ever going to become a SP, get him the fuck away from TLR to start the season.

TLR can't help himself. It isn't his fault, he's just too backwards in his thinking, TBH.

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Sheets & Vaughn are NOT major league RFs.  

I'll have to correct you: Sheets & Vaughn are NOT major league OFs.

I dont give a fuck about "the eye test," which has decieved a lot of SOX fans. They play Sheets/Vaughn/Jimenez, and all their other non-OF mastodons extremely deep, to help hide them in the OF.

And this is why a RFer has to be found, though it doesn't necessarily have to be Conforto. And, only after a ~2ish fWAR SP is found first. 

[FoxForce2]

2 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And this is why a RFer has to be found, though it doesn't necessarily have to be Conforto. And, only after a ~2ish fWAR SP is found first. 

Many posters have mentioned Marte as a possible 2B when he has played more in the OF than at 2B over the past 3 years. I don't know the reasons for that, but he may very well be a better option in RF than at 2B. This is probably academic in that if Ariz were to shop him - the Sox have little to offer in a bidding war.
 FA -Conforto - #5 SP
Kimbrel to Phils for Segura + catcher prospect.
I still think the Sox should bring Tepera back.