VAfan Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 It's only a few games, but already Pedro Grifol has left Michael Kopech and Lance Lynn in as starters while they got shelled. Why does that remind me of Ozzie? Because Ozzie's philosophy was to make his starters give him 100 pitches regardless of whether they had their stuff that day or not. Today, nobody gets to 100 pitches, but making a starter who doesn't have it go 80-90 pitches or more is essentially the same thing. I recall a story about Ozzie and Jon Garland. Garland was skittish. If he got into trouble, he would start looking into the dugout expecting the hook. The story I recall is that Ozzie came out and said "why are you looking into the dugout? Are you expecting me to take you off the hook? This is your mess. Clean it up." (Something like that.) He made Garland realize he wasn't going to get relieved just because he got into trouble. He had to learn how to get out of it. Made him a much better pitcher. Plus it saved the bullpen. I think Grifol might think the same way. Game's out of hand anyway. As long as the starter isn't hurting themselves, make them learn how to get out of trouble, and save a thin bullpen that hasn't pitched very well itself. Not much of a track record to go on, but I'm okay with that approach. In 2005, it allowed White Sox starters to post something no team is ever going to come close to matching ever again. 4 complete games in a row in the ALCS. Won't happen at any point in any season ever again. And in the 5th game, the bullpen pitched 2/3 of an inning. 5 games, 2/3 of an inning from the bullpen. Ozzie helped turn his starters into aces. We'll see how Grifol's approach works with this staff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 Sunday lineup on a getaway day when it would be nice to take a home series? He reminds me a bit more of Jerry Manuel so far. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 35 minutes ago, VAfan said: It's only a few games, but already Pedro Grifol has left Michael Kopech and Lance Lynn in as starters while they got shelled. Why does that remind me of Ozzie? Because Ozzie's philosophy was to make his starters give him 100 pitches regardless of whether they had their stuff that day or not. Today, nobody gets to 100 pitches, but making a starter who doesn't have it go 80-90 pitches or more is essentially the same thing. I recall a story about Ozzie and Jon Garland. Garland was skittish. If he got into trouble, he would start looking into the dugout expecting the hook. The story I recall is that Ozzie came out and said "why are you looking into the dugout? Are you expecting me to take you off the hook? This is your mess. Clean it up." (Something like that.) He made Garland realize he wasn't going to get relieved just because he got into trouble. He had to learn how to get out of it. Made him a much better pitcher. Plus it saved the bullpen. I think Grifol might think the same way. Game's out of hand anyway. As long as the starter isn't hurting themselves, make them learn how to get out of trouble, and save a thin bullpen that hasn't pitched very well itself. Not much of a track record to go on, but I'm okay with that approach. In 2005, it allowed White Sox starters to post something no team is ever going to come close to matching ever again. 4 complete games in a row in the ALCS. Won't happen at any point in any season ever again. And in the 5th game, the bullpen pitched 2/3 of an inning. 5 games, 2/3 of an inning from the bullpen. Ozzie helped turn his starters into aces. We'll see how Grifol's approach works with this staff. Which Sox pitcher is going to take a massive step forward and be the best pitcher in baseball the last two months of the season and into the postseason and the first two months of 2024? Kopech? Clevinger? Obvious to answer Cease, but we're already projecting him to be Top 5 Cy Young so hard to expect much more out of him. Lynn and Giolito pretty much look they "are what they are" at this stage of their careers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Line Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 30 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: He reminds me a bit more of Jerry Manuel so far. Maybe in his dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Buffalo Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 I don’t remember Ozzie having a 100 pitch thing, but I like it. Starters have to give innings even if it’s an bad night for them. The bullpen will burn out halfway through the season if they have to log 4-5 innings a game. It felt like TLR pitched guys every day last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 1 hour ago, caulfield12 said: Sunday lineup on a getaway day when it would be nice to take a home series? He reminds me a bit more of Jerry Manuel so far. Especially since they had an off day Tuesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, Middle Buffalo said: I don’t remember Ozzie having a 100 pitch thing, but I like it. Starters have to give innings even if it’s an bad night for them. The bullpen will burn out halfway through the season if they have to log 4-5 innings a game. It felt like TLR pitched guys every day last season. Looking at the Charlotte and Birmingham rosters pitching-wise...pretty bereft of talent. There's not going to be much financial leeway at the ASB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 9 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Looking at the Charlotte and Birmingham rosters pitching-wise...pretty bereft of talent. There's not going to be much financial leeway at the ASB. Overall lack of SP planning and depth will prove fatal. Bullpen could recover if Crochet and Liam make it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 18 minutes ago, pcq said: Overall lack of SP planning and depth will prove fatal. Bullpen could recover if Crochet and Liam make it back. I'm not really counting on Crochet to be effective this year. I hope I'm wrong. Hendriks, on the other hand, I am counting on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Mercedes Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, VAfan said: It's only a few games, but already Pedro Grifol has left Michael Kopech and Lance Lynn in as starters while they got shelled. Why does that remind me of Ozzie? Because Ozzie's philosophy was to make his starters give him 100 pitches regardless of whether they had their stuff that day or not. Today, nobody gets to 100 pitches, but making a starter who doesn't have it go 80-90 pitches or more is essentially the same thing. I recall a story about Ozzie and Jon Garland. Garland was skittish. If he got into trouble, he would start looking into the dugout expecting the hook. The story I recall is that Ozzie came out and said "why are you looking into the dugout? Are you expecting me to take you off the hook? This is your mess. Clean it up." (Something like that.) He made Garland realize he wasn't going to get relieved just because he got into trouble. He had to learn how to get out of it. Made him a much better pitcher. Plus it saved the bullpen. I think Grifol might think the same way. Game's out of hand anyway. As long as the starter isn't hurting themselves, make them learn how to get out of trouble, and save a thin bullpen that hasn't pitched very well itself. Not much of a track record to go on, but I'm okay with that approach. In 2005, it allowed White Sox starters to post something no team is ever going to come close to matching ever again. 4 complete games in a row in the ALCS. Won't happen at any point in any season ever again. And in the 5th game, the bullpen pitched 2/3 of an inning. 5 games, 2/3 of an inning from the bullpen. Ozzie helped turn his starters into aces. We'll see how Grifol's approach works with this staff. I don’t know how much blame can go to a manager that has to get innings from his starters because his GM left him with a bullpen that has very little to offer, especially for a team that ostensibly is competing for the division. So pick your poison. Stress a bullpen that might be a smoking crater by midseason, or take the pain. Edited April 7, 2023 by Chick Mercedes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 10 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Looking at the Charlotte and Birmingham rosters pitching-wise...pretty bereft of talent. There's not going to be much financial leeway at the ASB. You're damn right it sucks down in Charlotte and Birmingham. The quality and depth of pitching in the minors has been horrific for several years now. It just didn't rear it's ugly head going into this season. As I have posted before often, this is a huge front office debacle. The Sox do not have the right people in place from the POS owner to Rick Hahn and and on down the line in this organization to have the proper scouts and coaches to draft and develop prospects into major league starters or relievers. I am absolutely beyond sick and tired of how other winning baseball organizations seem to figure this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said: You're damn right it sucks down in Charlotte and Birmingham. The quality and depth of pitching in the minors has been horrific for several years now. It just didn't rear it's ugly head going into this season. As I have posted before often, this is a huge front office debacle. The Sox do not have the right people in place from the POS owner to Rick Hahn and and on down the line in this organization to have the proper scouts and coaches to draft and develop prospects into major league starters or relievers. I am absolutely beyond sick and tired of how other winning baseball organizations seem to figure this out. https://awaybackgone.com/2021/07/14/cleveland-indians-2021-mlb-draft-pitchers-pitchers/ Indians/Guardians used 19/21 of their 2021 draft picks on pitching. Gavin Williams already one of their top prospects. Angels used every single pick recently. https://www.mlb.com/news/where-guardians-top-prospects-are-starting-2023-season Nevertheless 17 of Top 30 prospects are position players. Gaddis is #28 and took McKenzie's rotation spot. And a certain Sox pitcher traded for Cesar Hernandez graduated from rookie status, Konnor Pilkington. They have Bilous too. Edited April 7, 2023 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 Just now, caulfield12 said: https://awaybackgone.com/2021/07/14/cleveland-indians-2021-mlb-draft-pitchers-pitchers/ Indians/Guardians used 19/21 of their 2021 draft picks on pitching. Gavin Williams already one of their top prospects. Angels used every single pick recently. That's what I'm talking about! Great article to add! This club is an embarrassment to Cleveland in terms of drafting and developing pitchers. Plus there are many other teams besides the Guardians that are good at developing their own pitchers in their own system like the Braves, Dodgers, Rays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said: That's what I'm talking about! Great article to add! This club is an embarrassment to Cleveland in terms of drafting and developing pitchers. Plus there are many other teams besides the Guardians that are good at developing their own pitchers in their own system like the Braves, Dodgers, Rays. Brewers really stand out here in the mid-market tier...and Cardinals on the position player side nearly every season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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