June 15, 20232 yr 16 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: Career stats, or what some here call "cherry picked". White Sox Shortstop fWAR per season career leaders - Legitimate MLB seasons (1947-2023), minimum 5 White Sox Seasons & 5 total fWAR: 3.4 Jose Valentin (17.3 fWAR / 5.0 White Sox Seasons) 3.2 Luis Aparicio (32 / 10.0) 3.0 Tim Anderson (19.4 / 6.4) 2.9 Ron Hansen (18.4 / 6.3) 2.8 Chico Carrasquel (16.8 / 6.0) 2.5 Alexei Ramirez (19.6 / 8.0) 1.6 Jose Uribe (7.8 / 5.0) 1.5 Craig Grebeck (8.3 / 5.6) 1.5 Scott Fletcher (8.0 / 5.4) 1.0 Ozzie Guillen (12.5 / 12.6) White Sox Third Base fWAR per season career leaders - Legitimate MLB seasons (1947-2023), minimum 5 White Sox Seasons & 5 total fWAR: 4.5 Robin Ventura (39.2 / 8.7) 3.0 Pete Ward (20.7 / 7.0) 2.8 Bill Melton (19.8 / 7.2) 2.7 Yoan Moncada (14.9 / 5.2) 1.7 Joe Crede (11.3 / 6.5) 1.5 Floyd Baker (7.5 / 5.0) Good god, the 3B history is horrific for a franchise with a century plus of play.
June 15, 20232 yr 26 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: Career stats, or what some here call "cherry picked". White Sox Shortstop fWAR per season career leaders - Legitimate MLB seasons (1947-2023), minimum 5 White Sox Seasons & 5 total fWAR: 3.4 Jose Valentin (17.3 fWAR / 5.0 White Sox Seasons) 3.2 Luis Aparicio (32 / 10.0) 3.0 Tim Anderson (19.4 / 6.4) 2.9 Ron Hansen (18.4 / 6.3) 2.8 Chico Carrasquel (16.8 / 6.0) 2.5 Alexei Ramirez (19.6 / 8.0) 1.6 Jose Uribe (7.8 / 5.0) 1.5 Craig Grebeck (8.3 / 5.6) 1.5 Scott Fletcher (8.0 / 5.4) 1.0 Ozzie Guillen (12.5 / 12.6) White Sox Third Base fWAR per season career leaders - Legitimate MLB seasons (1947-2023), minimum 5 White Sox Seasons & 5 total fWAR: 4.5 Robin Ventura (39.2 / 8.7) 3.0 Pete Ward (20.7 / 7.0) 2.8 Bill Melton (19.8 / 7.2) 2.7 Yoan Moncada (14.9 / 5.2) 1.7 Joe Crede (11.3 / 6.5) 1.5 Floyd Baker (7.5 / 5.0) The Sox are one of the most miserable franchises to ever exist in any sport, they have a .503 winning % in the time frame of your graphic, comparing them against themselves is a tallest midget award. But the fact that a journeyman SS that never made a single All Star game is 2 slots above TA kinda proves my point, not yours. And IDGAF what Mike Trout thinks about the dude, I've can guarantee I've watched way more of TA's career than he has. Using fWAR for all eligible/qualified SS's from 2016-today, Tim ranks 13th in the league in fWAR per game in that time span, right between Javier Baez and Willy Adames. He's a league average SS at best and getting worse by the minute.
June 15, 20232 yr 9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Good god, the 3B history is horrific for a franchise with a century plus of play. 2-3 = Solid Starter; 3-4 Good Player The Sox fielded solid shortstops more than half of the time 40 of 75 seasons with six solid plus players. I have a book "Who's on Third?" chronicling the poor options throughout White Sox history. Yoan could be a 4+ player if healthy, not sure he'll ever get there at least with the White Sox. I find it amusing the Scotty Fletcher and Craig Grebeck were far superior shortstops to bigmouth Ozzie. OBP ranking 431 players with 7,100 + PA: 424 .304 Garry Templeton (8,208) wRC+83 24.5 fWAR 425 .302 Dave Kingman (7.429) wRC+113 20.4 fWAR 426 .302 Joe Quinn (7,334) wRC+78 6.3 fWAR 427 .300 Larry Bowa (9,108) wRC+70 16.7 fWAR 428 .293 Frank White (8,468) wRC+84 31.1 fWAR 429 .289 Tommy Corcoran (9,358) wRC+73 22.7 fWAR 430 .287 Ozzie Guillen (7,133) wRC+66 13.1 fWAR 431 .285 Alfredo Griffin (7.331) wRC+65 -1.0 fWAR
June 15, 20232 yr 23 minutes ago, JoeCredeYes said: The Sox are one of the most miserable franchises to ever exist in any sport, they have a .503 winning % in the time frame of your graphic, comparing them against themselves is a tallest midget award. But the fact that a journeyman SS that never made a single All Star game is 2 slots above TA kinda proves my point, not yours. And IDGAF what Mike Trout thinks about the dude, I've can guarantee I've watched way more of TA's career than he has. Using fWAR for all eligible/qualified SS's from 2016-today, Tim ranks 13th in the league in fWAR per game in that time span, right between Javier Baez and Willy Adames. He's a league average SS at best and getting worse by the minute. Well Luis Aparicio is in the Hall of Fame on a BB Writers ballot (not crony Jerry Baines VC ballot), and he averaged 0.2 fWAR more than Tim. A franchise can suck as but still have good players. Mike Trout, a GOAT, has a lower franchise winning record than the Sox, doesn't negate his greatness. Not saying Tim is anywhere close to Trout or HOF level, but saying he had a solid overall career with the White Sox, and his 3 fWAR puts him in the Good Player range per Fangraphs metrics, someone most of us appreciated over the years as Sox fans.
June 15, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said: Well Luis Aparicio is in the Hall of Fame on a BB Writers ballot (not crony Jerry Baines VC ballot), and he averaged 0.2 fWAR more than Tim. A franchise can suck as but still have good players. Mike Trout, a GOAT, has a lower franchise winning record than the Sox, doesn't negate his greatness. Not saying Tim is anywhere close to Trout or HOF level, but saying he had a solid overall career with the White Sox, and his 3 fWAR puts him in the Good Player range per Fangraphs metrics, someone most of us appreciated over the years as Sox fans. and Luis is in the HOF because of his glove, TAs value is only that high in your chart because the organization lets him play a position he has no business playing, but that a whole other argument.
June 15, 20232 yr 1 minute ago, JoeCredeYes said: and Luis is in the HOF because of his glove, TAs value is only that high in your chart because the organization lets him play a position he has no business playing, but that a whole other argument. fWAR covers the entire game, hitting and defense. Same as the HOF. Luis is in because he stuck around for 18 seasons and stayed healthy, with a .653 OPS / 82 OPS+, and was a superb fielder. Tim has a .750 OPS / 103 OPS +, missed 2022 with a significant injury, lost another season due to owner greed (60 game faux season). Think he does well once he leaves, I am grateful what he did here mired in a toxic tanking organization his whole career, similar to Abreu who wasted his career playing for Jerry and his cronies.
June 15, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: fWAR covers the entire game, hitting and defense. Same as the HOF. Luis is in because he stuck around for 18 seasons and stayed healthy, with a .653 OPS / 82 OPS+, and was a superb fielder. Tim has a .750 OPS / 103 OPS +, missed 2022 with a significant injury, lost another season due to owner greed (60 game faux season). Think he does well once he leaves, I am grateful what he did here mired in a toxic tanking organization his whole career, similar to Abreu who wasted his career playing for Jerry and his cronies. Some of what you say has merit to it but you also have to realize some (most) of Tim's "issues" are self inflicted. It wasn't JR's fault he flipped off the fans in Cleveland, it wasn't Brooks' fault he's gotten into umpire confrontations and been suspended and it wasn't Hahn's fault for his shall we say, "off the field" escapades. By no means defending this incompetent, dysfunctional and inept organization but individuals have to take responsibilities for their actions as well. I sincerely think he's in a funk because he saw all those other shortstops he feels he's better then get nine figure deals while the Sox haven't even opened contract extensions talks (at least that we know of) Edited June 15, 20232 yr by Lip Man 1
June 15, 20232 yr 13 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: fWAR covers the entire game, hitting and defense. Same as the HOF. Luis is in because he stuck around for 18 seasons and stayed healthy, with a .653 OPS / 82 OPS+, and was a superb fielder. Tim has a .750 OPS / 103 OPS +, missed 2022 with a significant injury, lost another season due to owner greed (60 game faux season). Think he does well once he leaves, I am grateful what he did here mired in a toxic tanking organization his whole career, similar to Abreu who wasted his career playing for Jerry and his cronies. Not to beat a dead horse here, but I know how fWAR works, my point was about 43% of Luis's fWAR comes from his glove over his career, for TA it's closer to 13%. Compare TA to LF's (where he belongs) and I doubt he'd be #3 on your chart.
June 15, 20232 yr 11 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: Some of what you say has merit to it but you also have to realize some (most) of Tim's "issues" are self inflicted. It wasn't JR's fault he flipped off the fans in Cleveland, it wasn't Brooks' fault he's gotten into umpire confrontations and been suspended and it wasn't Hahn's fault for his shall we say, "off the field" escapades. By no means defending this incompetent, dysfunctional and inept organization but individuals have to take responsibilities for their actions as well. I sincerely think he's in a funk because he saw all those other shortstops he feels he's better then get nine figure deals while the Sox haven't even opened contract extensions talks (at least that we know of) How do you know what he's "feeling". Do you and your fraud "sources" have some telepathic way of getting inside his head.
June 15, 20232 yr 39 minutes ago, waltwilliams said: How do you know what he's "feeling". Do you and your fraud "sources" have some telepathic way of getting inside his head. My sources as explained in the past all are connected to the White Sox organization in a professional way sometimes for decades. The individuals I've spoken with and developed a relationship over the years don't have an ax to grind, they see what is taking place. You can believe what they are saying or not...completely up to you. But you can't dismiss what has been happening on and off the field for the past several seasons now with an organization that is so dysfunctional they don't even want to face the fan base at Sox fest. My comment about how he is feeling as stated is my own impression which I made clear. But if you are interested here is one of the comments about TA I was told from the people inside and outside the organization that I spoke with this past October and published in November: Question: Is there hope for the season? “It could happen, maybe there’s a 5% chance this front office could get it right. But first the front office has to admit they made mistakes. The catcher (Yamani Grandal), third baseman (Moncada) and shortstop (Tim Anderson) need to go. They need to get guys with a higher baseball acumen, the lack of urgency, the way they beat themselves this season was embarrassing. Anderson needs to go because the organization gave him the keys to the car and he drove it off the cliff. And he’s getting up in years (Author’s Note: Anderson will turn 30 this season), get something for him while you can, some talented young players. The organization also needs a major off season from the scouts, they have to find guys they can buy low on with a good upside and hope they produce.” Edited June 15, 20232 yr by Lip Man 1
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