Milkman delivers Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 2 hours ago, Quin said: Just in case anyone was wondering. They are bad at the thing Getz said they'd be good at. Also, they were 25th last year. That’s actually pretty awesome. It’s a stat we haven’t regressed in this season. 53 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said: Why is Benitendi the proud owner of the largest contract in team history? He can’t hit, can’t field. What good is he? He really brings in the crowds. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty22hotty Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 lowest AVG, OBP, OPS, SLG, pitching WAR, and getz also managed to build the slowest team in the league just an overall bad GM 🤷♂️ 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, nrockway said: I think however fangraphs calculates defensive WAR for first base and catcher is way off. Both sites do first basemen dirty, to my eye Vaughn has been pretty good defensively. He's turned a lot of bad throws into outs that I don't think other first basemen get. I don't think they do a "zone rating" for scoops/stretches but they should. The catcher point is mostly an aside, but boy does Fangraphs love "framing", something that can't actually be effectively quantified, is a skillset that is predicated on umpire ineptitude and will become entirely useless the second the automated strikezone replaces the home plate ump. Let's consider two catchers: Salvador Perez and Yasmani Grandal. Perez has a fWAR of 16.5 and a bWAR of 34.3. He's so bad at framing that it cost him 20 WAR. Now let's look at Grandal, 38.6 fWAR, 19.6 bWAR. Framing evidently earned him 20 WAR. How can there be such a discrepancy between the two calculations? Most of what you're seeing there is value relative to position. Vaughn gets dinged something like 20 runs just being a 1st baseman relative to a catcher. And catchers get a massive positional bonus on the other end. I'm not sure if FGs publishes their positional value calculations but it's certainly pretty close to the traditional defensive spectrum with 1B and DH heavily penalized and CF, SS and C heavily rewarded. This is dated but is a good explanation. I think the values are much more extreme now. Edited April 23 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 1 hour ago, nrockway said: I think however fangraphs calculates defensive WAR for first base and catcher is way off. Both sites do first basemen dirty, to my eye Vaughn has been pretty good defensively. He's turned a lot of bad throws into outs that I don't think other first basemen get. I don't think they do a "zone rating" for scoops/stretches but they should. The catcher point is mostly an aside, but boy does Fangraphs love "framing", something that can't actually be effectively quantified, is a skillset that is predicated on umpire ineptitude and will become entirely useless the second the automated strikezone replaces the home plate ump. Let's consider two catchers: Salvador Perez and Yasmani Grandal. Perez has a fWAR of 16.5 and a bWAR of 34.3. He's so bad at framing that it cost him 20 WAR. Now let's look at Grandal, 38.6 fWAR, 19.6 bWAR. Framing evidently earned him 20 WAR. How can there be such a discrepancy between the two calculations? Baseball Prospectus has a much better catcher rating system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 25 minutes ago, Texsox said: I was the everyday catcher and couldn't understand why my coach didn't let me catch both games in a double header. Hubris. I had the catchers mentality. You're going to fucking try to go first to third on me? NFW My advice to anyone here with a young kid they want to put in baseball is to have them learn to play catcher. It is the most important position at this age. Any kid that gets to first you might as well just let them go straight to third. Its impossible to throw them out stealing second because none of the pitchers can hold a runner and they all have slow deliveries. If you can get someone to block the ball and be able to make throws from catcher the third on those steal attempts it literally will eliminate multiple runs per game. My kid unfortunately is just scared of the ball so I can not get him to drop down and block the ball but man we have nailed a handful of runners at third that get too big of a lead and throwing straight from catcher to third to pick them off. If you can get your kid to block the ball and the arm is good, its pure gold for kid pitch little league. I would take someone like that over any other type of player. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 38 minutes ago, T R U said: My advice to anyone here with a young kid they want to put in baseball is to have them learn to play catcher. It is the most important position at this age. Any kid that gets to first you might as well just let them go straight to third. Its impossible to throw them out stealing second because none of the pitchers can hold a runner and they all have slow deliveries. If you can get someone to block the ball and be able to make throws from catcher the third on those steal attempts it literally will eliminate multiple runs per game. My kid unfortunately is just scared of the ball so I can not get him to drop down and block the ball but man we have nailed a handful of runners at third that get too big of a lead and throwing straight from catcher to third to pick them off. If you can get your kid to block the ball and the arm is good, its pure gold for kid pitch little league. I would take someone like that over any other type of player. It's been that way for a long time. My coach also turned me into a very useful #2 hitter. Lots of contact, drew some walks, sacrifice bunts, hit and runs. There were a lot of kids at tryouts better than me in a few areas but I hustled my ass off and made myself valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 If the Sox had anyone worth a s%*# on the beat, this would be asked of Getz at the beginning of the next homestand. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said: Most of what you're seeing there is value relative to position. Vaughn gets dinged something like 20 runs just being a 1st baseman relative to a catcher. And catchers get a massive positional bonus on the other end. I'm not sure if FGs publishes their positional value calculations but it's certainly pretty close to the traditional defensive spectrum with 1B and DH heavily penalized and CF, SS and C heavily rewarded. This is dated but is a good explanation. I think the values are much more extreme now. I get the logic behind the positional adjustment and I don't take fault with that necessarily. Well I do a little bit, it overrates bad players who play premium positions and underrates first baseman defense generally -- but that's not really my point here, I'm more so critiquing what they give precedence to or ignore when making the calculation. I think Vaughn is a better defensive first baseman, relative to other first basemen, than dWAR calculations gives him credit for. I can't prove it quantitatively, it's just the eye test, he's saved some really god awful throws and turned them into outs. There was a play the other day, I forget who fielded it on the left side of the infield, maybe Mendick, it was a tough, close play but the throw was offline and in the dirt. Vaughn looked like a 200 pound ballerina, I don't know how he contorted his body to make the scoop. I'm exaggerating a little bit but I'm generally impressed with his play at first base; he's missed some hard grounders he probably should've fielded which I think is what's counting against him, but I bet he's saved a couple of runs making catches that other first basemen wouldn't get to (see: Michael Busch. literally the worst first baseman I've ever seen...I'd still rather have him than Vaughn). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4OCS Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 6 hours ago, T R U said: My advice to anyone here with a young kid they want to put in baseball is to have them learn to play catcher. It is the most important position at this age. Any kid that gets to first you might as well just let them go straight to third. Its impossible to throw them out stealing second because none of the pitchers can hold a runner and they all have slow deliveries. If you can get someone to block the ball and be able to make throws from catcher the third on those steal attempts it literally will eliminate multiple runs per game. My kid unfortunately is just scared of the ball so I can not get him to drop down and block the ball but man we have nailed a handful of runners at third that get too big of a lead and throwing straight from catcher to third to pick them off. If you can get your kid to block the ball and the arm is good, its pure gold for kid pitch little league. I would take someone like that over any other type of player. Since when do pitchers hold runners in little league Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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