5 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Judging by the players they gave up Rogers was the bigger move for them than Eflin. Let’s not try to sugarcoat it now.

Are you trying to say Rogers is a better starter than Eflin?  Uhhh, no.  No sugarcoating needed.  Also see @Bob Sacamano’s post above.

They wanted two starters.  One was a good pickup and one was horrible.  But the way Crochet is pitching in the second half, the Orioles were wise to not give up a Coby Mayo for him.

2 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Are you trying to say Rogers is a better starter than Eflin?  Uhhh, no.  No sugarcoating needed.  Also see @Bob Sacamano’s post above.

They wanted two starters.  One was a good pickup and one was horrible.  But the way Crochet is pitching in the second half, the Orioles were wise to not give up a Coby Mayo for him.

Crochet would be a great arm to have going forward, but he wouldn't help any team this year really. An O's and Sox deal involving Crochet can be revisited by the teams in the offseason and I'm sure it will be.

Edited September 16, 20241 yr by Bob Sacamano

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Are you trying to say Rogers is a better starter than Eflin?  Uhhh, no.  No sugarcoating needed.  Also see @Bob Sacamano’s post above.

They wanted two starters.  One was a good pickup and one was horrible.  But the way Crochet is pitching in the second half, the Orioles were wise to not give up a Coby Mayo for him.

I’m saying the Orioles already traded for Eflin when they were still looking for an arm in late July. They decided to go the “cheap” route with Rogers rather than upping the ante a little further for Crochet.

And trading for Crochet isn’t just about this season alone, even though he’d be a lot more helpful to the Orioles than Rogers next month in the playoffs. It’s also about the next two seasons when they lose their ace and most reliable SP Corbin Burnes this offseason leaving another gaping hole to fill in the rotation.

Lastly, yes, it’s SSS but Mayo has a -6 wRC+ and -0.5 fWAR with a 47.5% k rate so far in mlb. That’s hard to do. The shine is certainly wearing off on several of these highly touted Orioles prospects including Jackson Holliday as well.

1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Crochet would be a great arm to have going forward, but he wouldn't help any team this year really. An O's and Sox deal involving Crochet can be revisited by the teams in the offseason and I'm sure it will be.

If used properly, Crochet could still be a highly effective opener in the playoffs or a nasty two inning lefty reliever ala Andrew Miller years ago. I don’t agree with the idea that he wouldn’t have helped a playoff team next month.

32 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’m saying the Orioles already traded for Eflin when they were still looking for an arm in late July. They decided to go the “cheap” route with Rogers rather than upping the ante a little further for Crochet.

And trading for Crochet isn’t just about this season alone, even though he’d be a lot more helpful to the Orioles than Rogers next month in the playoffs. It’s also about the next two seasons when they lose their ace and most reliable SP Corbin Burnes this offseason leaving another gaping hole to fill in the rotation.

Lastly, yes, it’s SSS but Mayo has a -6 wRC+ and -0.5 fWAR with a 47.5% k rate so far in mlb. That’s hard to do. The shine is certainly wearing off on several of these highly touted Orioles prospects including Jackson Holliday as well.

I agree that they went cheap.  They were never going to trade their top prospects.  I doubt they will even be a player for Crochet in the offseason due to the cost.

Holliday has 184 plate appearances in the MLB.  Mayo has 40.  If these guys are already losing their shine already, the Sox may as well release Vargas and Fletcher.

Edited September 16, 20241 yr by WhiteSox2023

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I agree that they went cheap.  They were never going to trade their top prospects.  I doubt they will even be a player for Crochet in the offseason due to the cost.

Holliday has 184 plate appearances in the MLB.  Mayo has 40.  If these guys are already losing their shine already, the Sox may as well release Vargas and Fletcher.

I mean, you wrote these guys off months ago. Holliday and Mayo are younger but there’s no denying they’ve been overmatched at the mlb level thus far. Not exactly what a team with World Series aspirations right now wants to see. In fact, their window might already be closed and they don’t know it yet because that starting rotation looks like an absolute dumpster fire next season if they can’t count on Grayson to be healthy. I don’t know where they’re going to get the pitching without spending serious money because they have no arms in the minors and they’ve already expended many of their bullets on the excess prospect position player front.

I’m just preparing myself for when Kopech is somehow a good starter for the Dodgers next year. Lopez Version 2.0

3 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

If used properly, Crochet could still be a highly effective opener in the playoffs or a nasty two inning lefty reliever ala Andrew Miller years ago. I don’t agree with the idea that he wouldn’t have helped a playoff team next month.

Didn't Crochet literally say he didn't want to do this without a contract extension?

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Didn't Crochet literally say he didn't want to do this without a contract extension?

Yes, yes he did.

I guess that the Santos trade is his Magnum Opus, such as it is; of course, that's the one that was most popular among the posters (I wasn't as enthusiastic as most, but they were right).  

For Crochet, please avoid the vulture GMs.....and don't eff it up.

I was more upset when Getz bypassed the best available hitter at that point in the Draft only to have KC select him with the next pick. Sox needed hitting and still do. What was up with that? No matter how talented a pitcher is coming out of the Draft there is a substantial risk of arm/elbow injury. IMO, a better strategy would be to trade for pitchers and Draft position player talent. Obviously that theory goes out the window when you bring up Chris Sale or other stars, but as a general strategy, that is what I would have liked to have seen implemented. But then again, I am just another Monday morning QB here.

 

Edited September 16, 20241 yr by tray

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Didn't Crochet literally say he didn't want to do this without a contract extension?

And what leverage did Crochet actually have within his current contract terms?

40 minutes ago, tray said:

I was more upset when Getz bypassed the best available hitter at that point in the Draft only to have KC select him with the next pick. Sox needed hitting and still do. What was up with that? No matter how talented a pitcher is coming out of the Draft there is a substantial risk of arm/elbow injury. IMO, a better strategy would be to trade for pitchers and Draft position player talent. Obviously that theory goes out the window when you bring up Chris Sale or other stars, but as a general strategy, that is what I would have liked to have seen implemented. But then again, I am just another Monday morning QB here.

 

The guy that had a 690 OPS in A+ ball? I know SSS, which seems to excuse lack of success for any non-Sox player.

18 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And what leverage did Crochet actually have within his current contract terms?

...the fact that any team would be acquiring him for the long run, and that he'd refuse to pitch based on looking out for his long-term health (ergo, the long-term health of the team asset)?

He wanted assurance that, if subject to abusing his arm for short-term success, he'd at least get some long-term stability.

9 minutes ago, JoeC said:

...the fact that any team would be acquiring him for the long run, and that he'd refuse to pitch based on looking out for his long-term health (ergo, the long-term health of the team asset)?

He wanted assurance that, if subject to abusing his arm for short-term success, he'd at least get some long-term stability.

Define long term. A team like the Orioles wouldn’t be interested in extending him beyond 2026. What leverage would Crochet have if the Orioles said you’re pitching this postseason but they didn’t extend him? As far as I know, he has no leverage within his current contract to make such a demand.

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Define long term. A team like the Orioles wouldn’t be interested in extending him beyond 2026. What leverage would Crochet have if the Orioles said you’re pitching this postseason but they didn’t extend him? As far as I know, he has no leverage within his current contract to make such a demand.

His leverage at the time of the trade deadline was that he:

1. Was one of the top pitchers in the game, and he was on the market available for via trade. Any team acquiring him would have been doing so under the premise of getting a limited number of elite-level innings out of him for 2024.
2. Was still under multiple years of team control (arb). Any team acquiring him would have been doing so under the premise of getting many more elite-level innings out of him for at least 2025.
3. Any team acquiring him would have paid a substantial amount of prospect capital to acquire him, with a price set by (1) and (2).

The risk to Crochet for pitching in the postseason is the fact that his arm has been taxed like it has never been taxed before... ever. So he's at an elevated risk for injury, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

As far as the leverage that Crochet had, he has to look out for his long-term health. While I think it's kind of bush league, players at some point have to look out for their own health at some point, and I would imagine that the players' association would be able to speak up for him

...and "long term" = 2025 at a minimum

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

His leverage at the time of the trade deadline was that he:

1. Was one of the top pitchers in the game, and he was on the market available for via trade. Any team acquiring him would have been doing so under the premise of getting a limited number of elite-level innings out of him for 2024.
2. Was still under multiple years of team control (arb). Any team acquiring him would have been doing so under the premise of getting many more elite-level innings out of him for at least 2025.
3. Any team acquiring him would have paid a substantial amount of prospect capital to acquire him, with a price set by (1) and (2).

The risk to Crochet for pitching in the postseason is the fact that his arm has been taxed like it has never been taxed before... ever. So he's at an elevated risk for injury, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

As far as the leverage that Crochet had, he has to look out for his long-term health. While I think it's kind of bush league, players at some point have to look out for their own health at some point, and I would imagine that the players' association would be able to speak up for him

And that’s where a savvy team like the Dodgers could have managed his workload in August/September so that he’d be fresh for the postseason. Easily could have put him on the IL for several weeks of the regular season to rest him up for the postseason and still ended up with the same number of innings pitched in 2024 as he will end up with the Sox.

22 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And that’s where a savvy team like the Dodgers could have managed his workload in August/September so that he’d be fresh for the postseason. Easily could have put him on the IL for several weeks of the regular season to rest him up for the postseason and still ended up with the same number of innings pitched in 2024 as he will end up with the Sox.

He quite literally said he didn't want to shutdown and start again  

3 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And that’s where a savvy team like the Dodgers could have managed his workload in August/September so that he’d be fresh for the postseason. Easily could have put him on the IL for several weeks of the regular season to rest him up for the postseason and still ended up with the same number of innings pitched in 2024 as he will end up with the Sox.

That's only if they are healthy

I tend to think the Crochet trade possibilities were more fiction by the media.  What would the better GMs really give up at a deadline where they want to improve the current season on a pitcher who has not  pitched a full season.   

10 hours ago, JoeC said:

His leverage at the time of the trade deadline was that he:

1. Was one of the top pitchers in the game, and he was on the market available for via trade. Any team acquiring him would have been doing so under the premise of getting a limited number of elite-level innings out of him for 2024.
2. Was still under multiple years of team control (arb). Any team acquiring him would have been doing so under the premise of getting many more elite-level innings out of him for at least 2025.
3. Any team acquiring him would have paid a substantial amount of prospect capital to acquire him, with a price set by (1) and (2).

The risk to Crochet for pitching in the postseason is the fact that his arm has been taxed like it has never been taxed before... ever. So he's at an elevated risk for injury, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

As far as the leverage that Crochet had, he has to look out for his long-term health. While I think it's kind of bush league, players at some point have to look out for their own health at some point, and I would imagine that the players' association would be able to speak up for him

Like JaMarr Chase taking out a $50 million insurance policy to protect himself...from injury without an extension signed.

9 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

He quite literally said he didn't want to shutdown and start again  

Great. What leverage does he have again to dictate how the team utilizes him? They could throw him back in the bullpen against his will and what’s he going to do?

5 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

That's only if they are healthy

I tend to think the Crochet trade possibilities were more fiction by the media.  What would the better GMs really give up at a deadline where they want to improve the current season on a pitcher who has not  pitched a full season.   

He’s going to end up pitching ~30 innings in August/September for the Sox. A team like the dodgers easily could have IL’d him for most of these two months to save those innings for October. It’s not like they needed him for anything other than postseason baseball. Instead, they are trotting out 3 starting pitchers no better than Jonathan Cannon as they head into the postseason.

23 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Great. What leverage does he have again to dictate how the team utilizes him? They could throw him back in the bullpen against his will and what’s he going to do?

He didn't really have that leverage, but he did take away any leverage the Sox had on trading him because what team would want to deal with that headache this season while trying to win it all? 

29 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Great. What leverage does he have again to dictate how the team utilizes him? They could throw him back in the bullpen against his will and what’s he going to do?

Lol he could just not pitch? They can’t force him to physically do anything.

Edited September 17, 20241 yr by Bob Sacamano